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      07-25-2018, 11:49 AM   #1
griz31
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Heel/Toe Downshifting

Hey Everyone,

Most in this thread are probably way more experienced and have no problems with this technique. However, I wanted to share my experience in learning this as I couldn't really find any good information on the specific problem I was having.

So, I am of the camp that uses more "side of foot" than "heel" in this technique. However, I was having a lot of problems keeping the same brake pressure when I would go to blip the throttle. As soon as I would blip the throttle with the right side of my foot, I'd lift the left side of my foot and lose braking force. Obviously, this didn't inspire a lot of confidence at the track!!

So I practiced a lot on the street and eventually got the foot position and pressures better, but it wasn't really consistent. At my last track event I was chatting with someone and he mentioned something to me that I had never heard and REALLY made a huge difference. Instead of trying to blip the throttle by initiating the movement from your foot/ankle, think about initiating the motion from your knee. Wow, what a difference this made for me.

Maybe this is common knowledge, or maybe this won't work for you, but wanted to share in case anyone had similar troubles trying to learn. Big thanks to the gentleman who mentioned it to me! Happy driving

-Jon
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Last edited by griz31; 07-25-2018 at 11:50 AM.. Reason: grammar
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      07-25-2018, 11:57 AM   #2
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Cool post!

I am in the other camp that uses more heel. I sort of "grip" the brake pedal with my toes with my ankle twisted a little, which lets me modulate the throttle kind of independent of the brake force required.

I had an instructor try to teach me the technique you describe, but I felt like this was more likely to drag my foot off the brake or decrease the force, which like you said, wasn't confidence inspiring at the track

Either way, practicing on the street makes a huge difference. Whichever method works becomes second-nature that way, leaving you to concentrate on other things besides shifting mechanics when you're tracking.
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      07-25-2018, 12:32 PM   #3
The Wind Breezes
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Ha, this is funny. What you don't understand is the side roll only works when you're going slow. If you have to brake hard, your brake will be too far down for you to use that technique, and you'll have to use heel toe. Any questions?
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      07-25-2018, 12:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
Ha, this is funny. What you don't understand is the side roll only works when you're going slow. If you have to brake hard, your brake will be too far down for you to use that technique, and you'll have to use heel toe. Any questions?
It's possible the contact point was a bit further down my foot, but still using mostly side instead of heel. Very possible this will be less effective for others!

BUT, it didn't look like Senna had any trouble using the side of his foot, and I guarantee he's braking harder than any of us

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      07-25-2018, 01:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
It's possible the contact point was a bit further down my foot, but still using mostly side instead of heel. Very possible this will be less effective for others!

BUT, it didn't look like Senna had any trouble using the side of his foot, and I guarantee he's braking harder than any of us
He is in fact heel toeing in that video. Not to mention the claim that senna "brakes harder" than any of us is just silly. Anyone can push a brake pedal and apply maximum effort. Senna was fast because he really, really knew how to drive not because he was a strongman on the pedals.

Trust me, get up to a decent speed and try to do an emergency stop while downshifting. When you hit ABS you'll know you're stopping hard enough and you can back off a little. The proof's in the pudding and you can go out and do it this afternoon. Your brake pedal will go down WAY further than it does during your normal driving and you will be forced to heel toe unless you want to uncontrollably hold the gas wide open.
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      07-25-2018, 01:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
He is in fact heel toeing in that video. Not to mention the claim that senna "brakes harder" than any of us is just silly. Anyone can push a brake pedal and apply maximum effort. Senna was fast because he really, really knew how to drive not because he was a strongman on the pedals.

Trust me, get up to a decent speed and try to do an emergency stop while downshifting. When you hit ABS you'll know you're stopping hard enough and you can back off a little. The proof's in the pudding and you can go out and do it this afternoon. Your brake pedal will go down WAY further than it does during your normal driving and you will be forced to heel toe unless you want to uncontrollably hold the gas wide open.
What I am referring to as using side of foot to "heel toe", is what is being done in the video - my apologies if that wasn't clear.

Also the video was more of a joke to show that side of foot "heel toeing" can be just as effective, I understand any of us can press a brake pedal harder.

In any case, if it doesn't work for you - use your heel! Was just sharing my experience, including instances of hard braking.

-Jon
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      07-25-2018, 01:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
What I am referring to as using side of foot to "heel toe", is what is being done in the video - my apologies if that wasn't clear.

Also the video was more of a joke to show that side of foot "heel toeing" can be just as effective, I understand any of us can press a brake pedal harder.

In any case, if it doesn't work for you - use your heel! Was just sharing my experience, including instances of hard braking.

-Jon
No, I understand perfectly well what you're doing to blip while downshifting during normal driving. I do it too when I drive a manual. What senna is doing is different whether you can see that or not. Just do what I recommend: try to stop the car as hard as possible while downshifting and you will understand.
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      07-25-2018, 02:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
No, I understand perfectly well what you're doing to blip while downshifting during normal driving. I do it too when I drive a manual. What senna is doing is different whether you can see that or not. Just do what I recommend: try to stop the car as hard as possible while downshifting and you will understand.
Lol I did this at the track, at track speeds. To me Senna is using the side of his foot and is what I was doing at the track, so I found this the best way to explain the situation. It worked for me and the technique I described helped me a lot, as confirmed by my instructor!

But, as I mentioned it might not work for you and I certainly don't claim to be an expert. Do what works best for you my man, was just sharing my experience and breakthrough in the hopes it might help others with similar issues.

-Jon
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      07-25-2018, 02:35 PM   #9
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Lol, I'm following you griz. I agree, Senna is using the side of his foot rather than the "heel". It's just semantics of "heel-toe" vs. "heel-side foot". It also depends on how the accelerator is hinged. With BMW's being hinged on the bottom, its very difficult to use your heel to blip the throttle, thus why you roll your foot over from the brake to the gas and use the side of your foot instead. With accelerator's hinged from the top, it's much easier to actually use your heel. Further, I've never had any problem braking as hard as I can while "heel-side footing" to down shift, and that includes being on track. But then again, I guess I'm just too slow if I can side foot downshift while braking.

Last edited by mKilgore; 07-25-2018 at 05:49 PM..
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      07-25-2018, 03:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mKilgore View Post
But then again, I guess I'm just to slow if I can side foot downshift while braking.


I appreciate Wind's intentions, he's just trying to help a brotha get faster.

I was just trying to describe a specific technique that helped in using the side of foot as I don't think it would have the same effect by using your actual heel. Now whether it's effective because i'm a slow piece of sh!t... High probability. I'll stick with it for now, though

-Jon
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