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      01-16-2011, 11:11 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by 135IBMW View Post
To be fair, M3 Adjuster has driven the car and you have not. His opinion is based on driving the car, my impression is that since you have not, your opinion/comparison is based on .......
Hot air. Go ahead, say it...
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      01-16-2011, 11:15 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by formula M View Post
def: Balance, agility and ability to lob, or flick the car with whatever bias you desire.
Then again, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

The E9x M3 is definitely not set up for maximum grip, not with tires barely wider than the E46 M3 and E36 M3 before it. I found it to be very willing to do anything I threw at it - so in this respect I am the limitation, not the car.

The 1M is bound to be grippier than the M3, by virtue of having the same tires and less weight.

YMMV.

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So, when the warranty is up, I will pull the engine and have Cosworth make me internals. Then rage another 15 years with it.)
HPFP notwithstanding to all this, of course.
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      01-16-2011, 12:08 PM   #311
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      01-16-2011, 12:40 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
No, I do not own an M3. (?)

Yes, daily driving is more important to me and many... many people, than on the track. Not only that, but most tracks, it is hard to reach 120MPH in anyways, unless it's a full circuit, etc. Basically, u have to drive the M3 @ high speeds, to have fun. It's also indicative off the car's upper limits, not it's lower capabilities/limits.

Secondly, that video is hilarious... they are on a track, that has banking... derp!



Hunh..(?) the streets is the perfect place to demonstrate a car's characteristics & toss-ability. Because it is the place where you will be driving nearly 100% of the time. Problem is, you can't toss the current M3 around, you need high speed and a track! That is why it's upsetting.

But no longer, because BMW is releasing the 1M, with a focus on handling, balance & agility. The M3 focus is elsewhere.... which isn't bad, u just have to respect the differences.
What do you drive now?
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      01-16-2011, 04:20 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I don't see any problem with DMB comparing the e92 chassis vs the e82 chassis, when both are in non M form. That seems like a very valid comparison actually.
Exactly - having had both, in non M trim, I think makes it an interesting comparison...

I just think the 1M represents the kind of focus that used to be present in the M3...the E9X is a great car in its own right, but you cannot deny it has become less focused...

And make all the jokes you want at the HPFP...the next M3 will both be FI and make use of engine sharing technology....and still be better than the E9X M3 in every measurable way.
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      01-16-2011, 05:02 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
For New vs. CPO it is apples to apples. What do people end up exchanging at the end of the day? Dollars, trading dollars for car. I don't accept the argument one can't compare new to old. The inherited risk of abuse is reflected in the dollar value of the CPO vehicle. If one has a keen eye on picking out a good CPO car then person comes out ahead. Just like a smart investor able to differentiate a dog stock from one fell out of love can profit from his abilities.

Most of the time when people say the two don't compare is basically saying "I don't care, this is too complicated for me, I want to spend money to buy peace of mind."


New = Used + Depreciation + Unknown abuse => Used = New - Depreciation - Unknown Abuse.

If you can estimate unknown abused and discover Asked used price < Est. used price, then it's a great buy.
For most cars, buying used vs new is apples to apples. Regular sedans, suv's (soft roaders, not off roaders), basic commuter cars, etc; none of these have a high chance of seeing much abuse. Therefore a good eye, and a lot of homework, will net you a used car in near new car shape. Because the chance of a used car having been abused is slim to none, and most car manufactures now also offer extended warranty, PLUS these cars are mostly much cheaper to maintain out of warranty. THIS is apples to apples.

But we're talking about sport cars here. Cars many people buy just to drive the crap out of. Have you driven sport cars by friends who drove hard, and friends who garage queened? Just so you could gauge the difference?
I have.
For a few of the japanese sport cars, s2000, 350z, evo etc; I can tell you that two seconds into driving, I could tell a huge difference between the ones owned by my friends who abused them, and the ones my friends who garage queen'd them. Therefore this could be apples to apples since it's easy to weed out all the abused ones.
But for german sport cars, they hide their abuse well. The drive remains identical between the ones abused and the ones kept mint. And unless one was ragged on beyond belief over a very high amount of mileage, you would have no idea whether you got a abused one until things started going wrong. And if you've bought a used german sport car before without any problems, it's not that you've got a "great eye", it's cause you were lucky.

You can convince yourself that you have a 100% foolproof method of buying used german sport cars. But considering the difference in warranty, and the fact that even the most experienced of buyers could not 100% be sure of a used M3's history, a caveat that could mean an insane amount of issues that may or may not be covered under warranty, it is NOT apples to apples.

Last edited by techthentic; 01-16-2011 at 05:07 PM..
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      01-16-2011, 05:06 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Don't CPO cars have warranty up through 6 years and 100k? If so, a carefully selected 2 year old e9x M3 purchased CPO would be able to match the 4 year warranty of a new 1M. Looks like apple vs apple.

Agree with you on the placement of the 1m pricing being in the middle as well as its relative value. Since we are comparing apples, indeed 9k to an M3 from the 1M gets a four door and another couple K (making it a 12k jump) to go from 1m coupe to M3 coupe.
You can warranty your 1M after your 4 years, to 6 years or 100k. At least that is what my dealership offers. But I would assume all BMW dealerships offer this
So no, not apples to apples, how can 10 years vs 6 years be apples to apples.

I didn't even realize the 9k jump was just for the sedan. So yeah, 12k for a coupe makes the 1M a even better buy.
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      01-16-2011, 05:20 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post
So yeah, 12k for a coupe makes the 1M a even better buy.
More like $15K more by the time you add Competition package to M3 Coupe.
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      01-16-2011, 05:38 PM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post

You can warranty your 1M after your 4 years, to 6 years or 100k. At least that is what my dealership offers. But I would assume all BMW dealerships offer this
So no, not apples to apples, how can 10 years vs 6 years be apples to apples.

.
Are you sure you have this correct? 6 years on top of the original four or are they saying that you get an extension of the four year 50k warranty to six years 100k.
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      01-16-2011, 05:41 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post

You can warranty your 1M after your 4 years, to 6 years or 100k. At least that is what my dealership offers. But I would assume all BMW dealerships offer this
So no, not apples to apples, how can 10 years vs 6 years be apples to apples.

.
Are you sure you have this correct? 6 years on top of the original four or are they saying that you get an extension of the four year 50k warranty to six years 100k.
I'm fairly confident that they are offering the latter. However even if the former is possible, you are now adding to the price of the 1m to do so, which tips the scales in price toward the cpo option.
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      01-16-2011, 05:48 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Are you sure you have this correct? 6 years on top of the original four or are they saying that you get an extension of the four year 50k warranty to six years 100k.

BMW Dealers (US) now offer their own extended warranty, you can purchase when bought new (add that cost to your financing) or anytime before the factory warranty runs out. I cant remember the cost but was a good sum on my X5. It will be an extension to the factory warranty, and it has different levels of coverage. Similar to CPO but not exactly the same.
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      01-16-2011, 08:08 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I just think the 1M represents the kind of focus that used to be present in the M3...the E9X is a great car in its own right, but you cannot deny it has become less focused...
Than what?

The only "focused" M3 ever was the E30 variety, which was purposely built for homologation. All the rest have represented more like pinnacles of the 3 series generations - all heavier than the regular 3 series and with lots more standard equipment - Grand Tourers with sportier demeanor if you want.

Come each generation, countless of enthusiasts have bemoaned the size increase, weight increase, cost increase - and oh yeah, the lack of focus. (Of course, only to madly fall in love with those models later on).

So BMW taking note of all the moaning perhaps, for the E36/E46/E92 generations have built limited series of very focused devices (LTW, CSL, GTS) and have met with questionable commercial success each time. The LTW's lingered in the dealers' courts for more than a year after end of production, the CSL was widely criticized for having focused tires (!!! go figure) and again didn't fly off the dealers' showrooms, and the GTS is widely bashed for being so expensive.


So no, I don't think the E9x M3 is less focused than the ones before it, except the E30. I think you are confusing this with all around excellence.

Quote:
the next M3 will both be FI and make use of engine sharing technology....and still be better than the E9X M3 in every measurable way.
Your crystal ball is way better than mine.

(And it might not have the troublesome current version of the HPFP).
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      01-16-2011, 09:33 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Joer View Post
Your avatar is an awesome shot of the aggressive 1M fenders. Good choice!
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      01-16-2011, 09:57 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Exactly - having had both, in non M trim, I think makes it an interesting comparison...

I just think the 1M represents the kind of focus that used to be present in the M3...the E9X is a great car in its own right, but you cannot deny it has become less focused...

And make all the jokes you want at the HPFP...the next M3 will both be FI and make use of engine sharing technology....and still be better than the E9X M3 in every measurable way.
The M3 is getting less focused with every generation, yet...
the next generation M3 will be better in every measurable way..

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      01-17-2011, 12:27 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
OK... if the M3 is "excellence"... then why are you thread-crapping a 1M thread..?
Huh? Expressing a slightly different opinion is now thread-crapping? Did I end up in a ballet forum by any chance?

Quote:
The two car's have a completely different focus. Yet, you've been told that and cannot understand (or, don't want to), because it cost less... so it can't be heralded as better (?).

The 1M has a clear focus, that the M3 lost... even BMW themselves admit this.
I'm not prepared to take anything BMW says at face value. I am not prepared to drink the coolaid. What I am prepared to do is test drive the shit out of it when it comes out and form my own opinion - otherwise if I listened to all M3 focus critics I wouldn't be driving one right now, and be sorrier for it.

Relax dude, I don't wish you any ill will.
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      01-17-2011, 01:07 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklin Joseph View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Are you sure you have this correct? 6 years on top of the original four or are they saying that you get an extension of the four year 50k warranty to six years 100k.

BMW Dealers (US) now offer their own extended warranty, you can purchase when bought new (add that cost to your financing) or anytime before the factory warranty runs out. I cant remember the cost but was a good sum on my X5. It will be an extension to the factory warranty, and it has different levels of coverage. Similar to CPO but not exactly the same.
Yes. That makes sense. That one can extend the warranty to 6/100, which is what CPO is.
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      01-17-2011, 07:26 AM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brizzom View Post
The M3 is getting less focused with every generation, yet...
the next generation M3 will be better in every measurable way..

No need to sigh--the M3 has gotten bigger, heavier, and more luxurious than each previous generation, correct? Less like the original, right?

Doesn't change the fact that the engineers are so good that they can make up for it--the E9X M3 really needs 400+ BHP, in order to lug its big ass around.

The next M3 will likely have less power, be lighter, and still have better overall measures of success--aka 0-60, 0-100, slalom, etc.

Makes sense to me. My main point is that the 1M is a step in that overall direction--nothing more.
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      01-17-2011, 07:38 AM   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Than what?

The only "focused" M3 ever was the E30 variety, which was purposely built for homologation. All the rest have represented more like pinnacles of the 3 series generations - all heavier than the regular 3 series and with lots more standard equipment - Grand Tourers with sportier demeanor if you want.

Come each generation, countless of enthusiasts have bemoaned the size increase, weight increase, cost increase - and oh yeah, the lack of focus. (Of course, only to madly fall in love with those models later on).

So BMW taking note of all the moaning perhaps, for the E36/E46/E92 generations have built limited series of very focused devices (LTW, CSL, GTS) and have met with questionable commercial success each time. The LTW's lingered in the dealers' courts for more than a year after end of production, the CSL was widely criticized for having focused tires (!!! go figure) and again didn't fly off the dealers' showrooms, and the GTS is widely bashed for being so expensive.


So no, I don't think the E9x M3 is less focused than the ones before it, except the E30. I think you are confusing this with all around excellence.



Your crystal ball is way better than mine.

(And it might not have the troublesome current version of the HPFP).
I think we aren't on the same page here--I am not denying the merits of the E9X M3. It is obviously an engineering feat--to achieve what it does despite the added size and weight over the E46 M3 is pretty remarkable.

My opinion is that the 1M represents an effort by BMW to get back to that same relative size and spirit--of the previous generation M3s, but with the added bonus of better engineering and technology. We know that the 1M is nearly identical to the E46 M3 in size/dimensions/power...yet it is faster by 12 seconds on the Ring...and also more fuel efficient...and has less emissions....and is safer...see what I am getting at?

That shows, to me at least, that you can stick with the same overall size and spirit of earlier (and yes, in my opinion, more focused) generations of BMW's most iconic line of cars, the M3. You have to admit that the limited options on the 1M, while providing manufacturing benefits to BMW, also prevents the car from losing a certain level of focus, no? A fully spruced out 1M will be very different than a fully spruced out M3...

I think you will see the same kind of effort in the next generation M3, where less = better. Lighter, more efficient, and yes, in this brave new world, the sharing of engine technology between the ///M cars...the 1M, X5M, and X6M are all proof of that....

It isn't so much that I have a crystal ball--just extrapolating the current trends...and listening to SCOTT, who has proven to be pretty close on things like this.

Good discussion regardless.
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      01-17-2011, 09:47 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by jmunro View Post
Your avatar is an awesome shot of the aggressive 1M fenders. Good choice!
Cheers, thanks mate!

Yeah I love the look of those wheel arches!
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      01-17-2011, 11:13 AM   #328
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What's the fascination with a warranty? Enthusiasts don't need warranties.
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      01-17-2011, 11:25 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I think we aren't on the same page here--I am not denying the merits of the E9X M3. It is obviously an engineering feat--to achieve what it does despite the added size and weight over the E46 M3 is pretty remarkable.

My opinion is that the 1M represents an effort by BMW to get back to that same relative size and spirit--of the previous generation M3s, but with the added bonus of better engineering and technology. We know that the 1M is nearly identical to the E46 M3 in size/dimensions/power...yet it is faster by 12 seconds on the Ring...and also more fuel efficient...and has less emissions....and is safer...see what I am getting at?

That shows, to me at least, that you can stick with the same overall size and spirit of earlier (and yes, in my opinion, more focused) generations of BMW's most iconic line of cars, the M3. You have to admit that the limited options on the 1M, while providing manufacturing benefits to BMW, also prevents the car from losing a certain level of focus, no? A fully spruced out 1M will be very different than a fully spruced out M3...

I think you will see the same kind of effort in the next generation M3, where less = better. Lighter, more efficient, and yes, in this brave new world, the sharing of engine technology between the ///M cars...the 1M, X5M, and X6M are all proof of that....
+1 The sad news is that the next 3er is slated to be even bigger which will provide the base shell of the next M3. Who knows when the madness will end?

As for the price of the 1M, this is the lowest price we will ever see for the price of admission to an M car period. Get it while you can!
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      01-17-2011, 11:37 AM   #330
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Anyone has translation of the German price list in today's release?
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