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      07-03-2018, 06:24 AM   #1
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These N52 NA engines are just....tanks.

I was very...concerned with numerous issues with regards to these N52 engines.

I managed to completed so over 20 days of track driving, training, drift days etc within 3 months.

Everytime i start that engine, it just goes. Not in terms of power, but in terms of not giving up.

Redlining 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears on the Nordschleife in 35-40c+ temps and that engine will never refuse to go all the way.

Granted, everything in terms of maintenance has been done, which also is the key to having reliability with any car (generally speaking). Watching how all the turbocharged stock and tuned cars fly by at much higher speeds, but only 3-5 laps in and they are on a cooldown lap or got limp mode. I just stayed out there, lap after lap.

My last event was for my national A license, was done at mending airfield. 43c+ temp that day, two 911.1 turbos, F80 M3 and C63 AMG (and other turbocharged cars) went to pit after 4 laps, i managed to get 9+ laps before the heat started to really bombard me.

There was 1 heavily modified 964 there also ran hot and went into the pits.

I just really wish there was a cost effective way to get 300hp from that engine, and probably get some wider tires without having to roll the fenders (need more grip, 225/40s all round can only give so much) and wish the E82 was a lot lighter, i mean nearly 1.5 tons in that "small car" is a lot, i can feel it, oh yeah and the seats are rubbish on track XD my legs are always leaning on the door panel or center console ^^

No funny noises, no smoke, no warnings even oil consumption is none.

NA engines just have that advantage of going on and on, but those turbos are just way too damn fast

Ferodo DS Performance street legal pads + 330i front discs + SRF react fluid = stops on a dime. I had to re-learn braking points, meaning at 70-80% brake pressure the car just stops. Making me wanting to break later and harder corner, but i also wanted to drive 600+ kms back home in one piece so i did not really push it (braking wise) that much.

120c oil temp at 43c day redlining 3rd gear all day on the airfield, damn i am impressed.

One more thing, that short wheel base is a beauty on the GP track or Mending Airfield, it is a handful on Nordschleife, even with 230-ish at the wheels that rear end does not like high speed bumpy corners sadly.
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      07-03-2018, 08:08 AM   #2
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Loved the N52 in my old 128i and X5 (RIP both due to accidents) and love the N52 in my 528i F10.

Still looking for my next N52. Maybe a Z4? Probably another 128i.
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      07-03-2018, 09:45 AM   #3
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Yep our cars are wonderful and simple. A bit more power and tire while shedding 200lbs would be the cats meow. The cars were never really meant to be racers but do everything well besides push. The motor does well for itself but needs that extra 15%
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      07-04-2018, 03:31 AM   #4
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I couldn't say it better myself. My car has a few miles (175k) and it doesn't miss a beat on track, and just keeps singing that BMW song (much quieter than the other cars out there). I don't think it needs more power, as it'll easily spin the inside wheel, just an LSD and minor suspension work and you've got yourself a proper sports car. Dropping weight and getting more tire underneath it will just sweeten the deal for me. In due time...
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      07-05-2018, 01:11 PM   #5
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The N52 is a great engine! If you need more tyre the Apex 1er specific rims will allow you to run 265 rears and 245 fronts without modification.
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      07-05-2018, 01:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jonwilli View Post
The N52 is a great engine! If you need more tyre the Apex 1er specific rims will allow you to run 265 rears and 245 fronts without modification.
Im seriously reconsidering the E82 in general. Since i do a lot of Nordschleife laps, that short wheel base is really....troubling on medium and high speed corners.

I am also not too happy with the software tune, the shop is treating me...like a "normal" person, not a customer and is denying any "issues". It runs great, but the dyno i went to showed several dips and inconsistencies in the graph, need to test on another dyno to verify.

For now she stays, but MAYBE in winter, i might change to either E46 M3 or E92 N54 335i, big MAYBE we shall see.

Thank you for the tip on wheels.
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      07-05-2018, 02:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwilli View Post
The N52 is a great engine! If you need more tyre the Apex 1er specific rims will allow you to run 265 rears and 245 fronts without modification.
Im seriously reconsidering the E82 in general. Since i do a lot of Nordschleife laps, that short wheel base is really....troubling on medium and high speed corners.

I am also not too happy with the software tune, the shop is treating me...like a "normal" person, not a customer and is denying any "issues". It runs great, but the dyno i went to showed several dips and inconsistencies in the graph, need to test on another dyno to verify.

For now she stays, but MAYBE in winter, i might change to either E46 M3 or E92 N54 335i, big MAYBE we shall see.

Thank you for the tip on wheels.
I wouldn't give up on it so quick, at least, not just yet. You still (unless I'm mistaken) haven't done anything other than coilovers and subframe bushings to your suspension, and there's a bit left to do until it gets really good. Sway bars are one thing I'd definitely recommend; the stiffer front one improved the stability of my car a ton on high speed corners (The Chute at SPMP) and inspired more confidence, and a stiffer rear one made the car more tossable and made it feel lighter.
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      07-05-2018, 02:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_flies View Post
I wouldn't give up on it so quick, at least, not just yet. You still (unless I'm mistaken) haven't done anything other than coilovers and subframe bushings to your suspension, and there's a bit left to do until it gets really good. Sway bars are one thing I'd definitely recommend; the stiffer front one improved the stability of my car a ton on high speed corners (The Chute at SPMP) and inspired more confidence, and a stiffer rear one made the car more tossable and made it feel lighter.
I have done:

330i Front discs/DS Performance Pads (all rounds)
KW V3 Coil Overs
Engine Software

What sway bars do you recommend? would be great if they are BMW OE ones, so no need for TÜV locally.

Heard 330i sway bars are 24mm front and 15mm rear and bolt on?
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      07-05-2018, 03:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_flies View Post
I wouldn't give up on it so quick, at least, not just yet. You still (unless I'm mistaken) haven't done anything other than coilovers and subframe bushings to your suspension, and there's a bit left to do until it gets really good. Sway bars are one thing I'd definitely recommend; the stiffer front one improved the stability of my car a ton on high speed corners (The Chute at SPMP) and inspired more confidence, and a stiffer rear one made the car more tossable and made it feel lighter.
I have done:

330i Front discs/DS Performance Pads (all rounds)
KW V3 Coil Overs
Engine Software

What sway bars do you recommend? would be great if they are BMW OE ones, so no need for TÜV locally.

Heard 330i sway bars are 24mm front and 15mm rear and bolt on?
You've got an M-Sport car, which has a 12mm rear and 26.5mm(?) front, right?

I'd go with an E93 M3 front sway bar, it's OEM, pretty easy to find, and are (in the US) reasonably priced. Personally, I went with an Eibach 28mm front, but I found a good price and 'vert M3's aren't common in my area. Front sway bars are also extremely easy to install.

For the rear, I don't know that I'd recommend anything stiffer than stock (at least, not significantly so) until you've got an LSD to keep that inside tire from roasting. My car didn't have a rear bar at all, so I put the 15mm bar from ECS back there, and it made it much better.

I'd also look into M3 front control arms. They improve steering feel a good bit, and make the front end feel more cohesive. Plus, you gain some negative camber, and grip. Camber plates would take it to the next level, I can vouch for Dinan (they're more streetable than racing-style plates).

Oh, subframe bushings are a must. I have Whiteline inserts, but I'm starting to feel the limits of those. Since you can track your car so often (lucky duck), solid bushings would be a solid option ()...

There's a whole bunch more, but if you're contemplating selling the car, it probably isn't worth pursuing much more until you're sure...
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      07-05-2018, 04:04 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by chris_flies View Post
You've got an M-Sport car, which has a 12mm rear and 26.5mm(?) front, right?

I'd go with an E93 M3 front sway bar, it's OEM, pretty easy to find, and are (in the US) reasonably priced. Personally, I went with an Eibach 28mm front, but I found a good price and 'vert M3's aren't common in my area. Front sway bars are also extremely easy to install.

For the rear, I don't know that I'd recommend anything stiffer than stock (at least, not significantly so) until you've got an LSD to keep that inside tire from roasting. My car didn't have a rear bar at all, so I put the 15mm bar from ECS back there, and it made it much better.

I'd also look into M3 front control arms. They improve steering feel a good bit, and make the front end feel more cohesive. Plus, you gain some negative camber, and grip. Camber plates would take it to the next level, I can vouch for Dinan (they're more streetable than racing-style plates).

Oh, subframe bushings are a must. I have Whiteline inserts, but I'm starting to feel the limits of those. Since you can track your car so often (lucky duck), solid bushings would be a solid option ()...

There's a whole bunch more, but if you're contemplating selling the car, it probably isn't worth pursuing much more until you're sure...
Correct, 26mm front and 12mm rear.

Eibach is offering a kit for €300 including bushings 28mm front and 15mm rears.

Not sure, want to dyno it again locally this time (or near by) and see what exactly is the engine doing, MAYBE change the tune, unsure.

I got so much in my head, so everything is just in my head and no action will be taken till winter.
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      07-25-2018, 04:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
I have done:

330i Front discs/DS Performance Pads (all rounds)
KW V3 Coil Overs
Engine Software

What sway bars do you recommend? would be great if they are BMW OE ones, so no need for TÜV locally.

Heard 330i sway bars are 24mm front and 15mm rear and bolt on?
Zombie Head- Have you changed out the rear subframe bushings with M3 or urethane units? It's a royal pain to do, but worth it in the end. It will make a big difference in high speed sweeping turns, especially if there are bumps or waviness in the surface. My 128i really feels planted after installing M3 RSFB's.
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      07-25-2018, 04:29 PM   #12
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The engine's a tank because it's ridiculously detuned from what a NA 4 stroke of that displacement and cylinder surface area to volume ratio can produce. A CRF250R makes 40 hp out of .25l on pump gas. It's true, the surface area to volume on that motor is better but you can extrapolate. The biggest problem is lack of dry sump, but that may not show up for a long time without slicks.
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      07-25-2018, 05:25 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by minirips2 View Post
Zombie Head- Have you changed out the rear subframe bushings with M3 or urethane units? It's a royal pain to do, but worth it in the end. It will make a big difference in high speed sweeping turns, especially if there are bumps or waviness in the surface. My 128i really feels planted after installing M3 RSFB's.
No it is stock/OEM.

Im taking a break from any mods, im focusing elsewhere in my life but if i do this it will be a diff and rear sway bar as well, so much needs to come off its silly.
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      07-25-2018, 05:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
The engine's a tank because it's ridiculously detuned from what a NA 4 stroke of that displacement and cylinder surface area to volume ratio can produce. A CRF250R makes 40 hp out of .25l on pump gas. It's true, the surface area to volume on that motor is better but you can extrapolate. The biggest problem is lack of dry sump, but that may not show up for a long time without slicks.
That is why i stopped with a software tune and let the engine be.

Really if i dump more money, it would probably be on an E46 M3, something that can seriously be quick.
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      07-25-2018, 06:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
No it is stock/OEM.

Im taking a break from any mods, im focusing elsewhere in my life but if i do this it will be a diff and rear sway bar as well, so much needs to come off its silly.
If you do 2-piece bushings like Whiteline, almost nothing comes off. I've read that even the M3 bushings can be done without removing the subframe from the car. You could do 2-piece bushings in a couple of hours if you have the right tool. I did this last weekend and made a thread about the tool that I built, it's actually really easy.
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      07-25-2018, 06:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
The engine's a tank because it's ridiculously detuned from what a NA 4 stroke of that displacement and cylinder surface area to volume ratio can produce. A CRF250R makes 40 hp out of .25l on pump gas. It's true, the surface area to volume on that motor is better but you can extrapolate. The biggest problem is lack of dry sump, but that may not show up for a long time without slicks.
This is a somewhat absurd comparison. The engines are drastically different and the peak horsepower is largely due to engine speed. All sport-oriented motorcycles spin at much higher RPM than our engines and produce far higher HP/liter figures as a result. I couldn't find a dyno graph for the bike you cited, but an R1 makes 167hp out of a 1 liter motor... at 12,300RPM!

I'm not claiming our engines are peak performers at about 77hp/liter, but it would make more sense to compare against other 6-cylinder engines in the 3 liter range that have similar redlines. A 370 is in the ballpark at 89hp/liter for example. Clearly higher than our engines but not 160hp/liter. Even an S2000 is only at 120hp/liter and that's considered an extremely high output engine, but again that engine revs to 9k which explains a lot of that.
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      07-25-2018, 06:30 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rowsdower View Post
This is a somewhat absurd comparison. The engines are drastically different and the peak horsepower is largely due to engine speed. All sport-oriented motorcycles spin at much higher RPM than our engines and produce far higher HP/liter figures as a result. I couldn't find a dyno graph for the bike you cited, but an R1 makes 167hp out of a 1 liter motor... at 12,300RPM!

I'm not claiming our engines are peak performers at about 77hp/liter, but it would make more sense to compare against other 6-cylinder engines in the 3 liter range that have similar redlines. A 370 is in the ballpark at 89hp/liter for example. Clearly higher than our engines but not 160hp/liter. Even an S2000 is only at 120hp/liter and that's considered an extremely high output engine, but again that engine revs to 9k which explains a lot of that.
You are right, I didn't mention RPM. And that R1 is old hat. New superbikes make almost 200bhp. Anyway, for shits and giggles let's see what would happen if you gave the N52 superbike compression and all the trick bits to make it flow a lot better, without raising the RPM. We'll say flow increases 5% in efficiency in the upper RPM which is reasonable. Stock compression is 10.7:1. A S1000RR has 14:1 compression and runs on pump gas. Then let's say we use E85 vs pump gas. E85 needs a lot less air to burn so you can stuff more in the motor. Even though the energy content is less you still end up with about 10% more power potential other things equal.

So you've got:
+5% efficiency
14:1 vs 10.7:1
+10% E85 boost

We'll say a N52 makes 270bhp stock, being generous.

270 * 14/10.7 = 353

+ 15% = 405 bhp

So even if you don't run ethanol, and just use whatever octane gasoline is necessary to support 14:1 compression, you can make an absolute shitload of power.
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      07-25-2018, 08:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
You are right, I didn't mention RPM. And that R1 is old hat. New superbikes make almost 200bhp. Anyway, for shits and giggles let's see what would happen if you gave the N52 superbike compression and all the trick bits to make it flow a lot better, without raising the RPM. We'll say flow increases 5% in efficiency in the upper RPM which is reasonable. Stock compression is 10.7:1. A S1000RR has 14:1 compression and runs on pump gas. Then let's say we use E85 vs pump gas. E85 needs a lot less air to burn so you can stuff more in the motor. Even though the energy content is less you still end up with about 10% more power potential other things equal.

So you've got:
+5% efficiency
14:1 vs 10.7:1
+10% E85 boost

We'll say a N52 makes 270bhp stock, being generous.

270 * 14/10.7 = 353

+ 15% = 405 bhp

So even if you don't run ethanol, and just use whatever octane gasoline is necessary to support 14:1 compression, you can make an absolute shitload of power.
An N52 in 128i trim is ~ 230 base to start with, and with that swept volume running 14:1 on 85 octane is unlikely to work out too well.
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      07-25-2018, 08:20 PM   #19
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An N52 in 128i trim is ~ 230 base to start with, and with that swept volume running 14:1 on 85 octane is unlikely to work out too well.
The power increase is proportional, so you can extrapolate a ~50% increase on 230bhp. Even allowing for some losses that is a really ridiculous increase to a NA engine still running on pump fuel (E85 is available at the pump).

Also, how anyone can enter a discussion on engines but not know about E85 is beyond me. Hint...it's not 85 octane, it's mostly ethanol and tunes like leaded race gas. So yeah, I've shown how you can get a shitload more power without touching the rev limit. You disagree?
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      07-25-2018, 09:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowsdower View Post
This is a somewhat absurd comparison. The engines are drastically different and the peak horsepower is largely due to engine speed. All sport-oriented motorcycles spin at much higher RPM than our engines and produce far higher HP/liter figures as a result. I couldn't find a dyno graph for the bike you cited, but an R1 makes 167hp out of a 1 liter motor... at 12,300RPM!

I'm not claiming our engines are peak performers at about 77hp/liter, but it would make more sense to compare against other 6-cylinder engines in the 3 liter range that have similar redlines. A 370 is in the ballpark at 89hp/liter for example. Clearly higher than our engines but not 160hp/liter. Even an S2000 is only at 120hp/liter and that's considered an extremely high output engine, but again that engine revs to 9k which explains a lot of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuP View Post
An N52 in 128i trim is ~ 230 base to start with, and with that swept volume running 14:1 on 85 octane is unlikely to work out too well.
Please don't feed the troll...
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      07-25-2018, 11:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
The power increase is proportional, so you can extrapolate a ~50% increase on 230bhp. Even allowing for some losses that is a really ridiculous increase to a NA engine still running on pump fuel (E85 is available at the pump).

Also, how anyone can enter a discussion on engines but not know about E85 is beyond me. Hint...it's not 85 octane, it's mostly ethanol and tunes like leaded race gas. So yeah, I've shown how you can get a shitload more power without touching the rev limit. You disagree?
A tuner could probably make a lot of mods to the engine to do everything you cited, but we are talking about a base-model engine here. If you wanted the fast 1er you would buy the 135i. The N52 is not supposed to be a revvy powerhouse, it's supposed to be good enough across a variety of base models (1er, 3er, 5er, Z4, probably some of the X models).

Overall we are getting off topic. Your point was that this is not a high output 3L engine and hence you can beat the shit out of it all day and you won't hurt it, which is a very valid point. If it came with 405hp or whatever you calculated, you likely could not beat the shit out of it all day like we can.
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      07-26-2018, 03:29 AM   #22
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Please don't feed the troll...
So you don't understand anything I wrote. Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowsdower View Post
If it came with 405hp or whatever you calculated, you likely could not beat the shit out of it all day like we can.
Correct.
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