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      07-11-2010, 05:21 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
I just found out that my dads b-stock prepared 70 302 stang reved to 8500 from the factory and that his 1972 440 Chrysler redlined at 6800 before he balanced and bluprinted it. Again common BMW we could do it 40 years ago and we can't do better now with better materials/design?
If his mustang redlined at 8500, it was the factory racing motor, developed for trans am racing.

I don't know about the 440s, but I know they all made peak power under 5,000 rpms.
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      07-11-2010, 06:59 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
If his mustang redlined at 8500, it was the factory racing motor, developed for trans am racing.

I don't know about the 440s, but I know they all made peak power under 5,000 rpms.
Not to state the obvious, but engine tech back then was way ahead of brake, suspension and tire tech. "What brakes, who needs to stop, that makes you slower..."
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      07-11-2010, 07:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
Not to state the obvious, but engine tech back then was way ahead of brake, suspension and tire tech. "What brakes, who needs to stop, that makes you slower..."
Of course, just saying that the comparison was not apt.

Comparing a racing motor (designed to be frequently rebuilt) to a steet motor, and considering an engine that made peak power in the 4.5k range as high revving doesn't really make sense in my view.
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      07-11-2010, 07:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
Ummmmm...335d?

I thought at one time some models of the 911 used twin twin scroll turbos, but it might have been someone else.
There's no sound reason for twin twin scroll turbos on a six cylinder, be it a boxer, V or inline, Porsche, BMW or other.

Dual twin scroll turbos means four separated exhaust streams, which is not a workable engineering solution for a six.
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      07-11-2010, 07:43 PM   #93
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It wasn't a ford racing but motor. His team picked up a factory boss 302 off the showroom floor and then striped it for racig. They didn't touch the motor
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      07-11-2010, 07:45 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Think about it, with a turbocharger you can't have both low end power and big top end power. You either have a small turbo that spins up quickly but runs out of breath when the engine is forcing exhaust gasses into it at 6 or 7 thousand revs or you have a big turbo that takes a long time to spool up, can't provide much low end power but starts to hit its stride at high RPMs. Do you really want an M car to drive like a big turbo Supra or RSX?

The reason it doesn't rev higher than 7,000 is because it doesn't need to, a turbocharged engine is designed to be used mainly in its midrange, in fact there are almost no turbo engines I can think of that need to be taken to their redline to offer maximum performance.
Another way to get around this is to use a variable vane (geometry) turbo like the Porsche 997 Turbo does.
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      07-11-2010, 07:48 PM   #95
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I'm also not talking about peak power and where it is on the powerband...I'm talking about redline. And I'm simply saying that technology has advanced a lot in 30 or 40 years and why if we could make engine rev reliably then why can't we do it now?

My dads 440 worked flawlesly until 1992 when he sold it
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      07-12-2010, 06:24 AM   #96
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Not shure if this has been posted already:
Here is a video of a drive on ascari with the prototype:
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      07-12-2010, 07:18 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
It wasn't a ford racing but motor. His team picked up a factory boss 302 off the showroom floor and then striped it for racig. They didn't touch the motor
So he picked a factory street 302 or a factory Trans Am 302? The factory street had about 290, the trans am motor had the 420 hp @8500 and 470 @ 9000. But a 302 is a 5. Liter, it still wasn't making 100 hp per liter. Impressive rev line to be sure.

I often wonder has anybody take. Two S54 engines and put them together to make a V12, and that would essentially be a 6.4 liter, 666 hp M V12. Or what about taking 2 S2000 engines and making a V8....
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      07-12-2010, 08:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Future M1 owner View Post
There's no sound reason for twin twin scroll turbos on a six cylinder, be it a boxer, V or inline, Porsche, BMW or other.

Dual twin scroll turbos means four separated exhaust streams, which is not a workable engineering solution for a six.
That's not entirely correct. You can have an uneven split of cylinders - two cylinder to one and one cylinder to the other. The idea is to pair the two cylinders which exhaust gas won't affect each other to be on the same scroll. The other option is to have a sequential scroll which have a smaller scroll and a larger scroll to connect to the 3 cylinders, with a valve controlling the opening of the larger scroll, but which I don't think this will be the route BMW is going for this engine.
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      07-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #99
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      07-12-2010, 11:40 AM   #100
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The finned cover for the M-style diff could be clearly seen in many previous photos. How could anyone have missed that!

I also made veryone aware of the M-style rear lower camber links as well at that time.
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      07-12-2010, 12:47 PM   #101
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      07-12-2010, 01:21 PM   #102
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I just want to stroll around that garage!
take me with you when you go....
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      07-12-2010, 03:05 PM   #103
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This is the car of my dreams. Basically the 135i without any flaws at all. M Pure.
No flaws? Show this car to the masses and it would be the exact opposite. The first flaw is it's appearance, then interior, then weight, then price, then risk of quality issues (based on the current 08-10 model run of brake lights falling out, HPFP's failing, etc.) ... BMW has lost it.
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      07-12-2010, 03:12 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Ok I get that it's turbocharged but if ford can make a 5L V8 turn at 7k safely why can't BMW do better with 2 fewer litres of displacement and two fewer cylinders?

Ford has tons of R&D $$$ not to mention resources up the wazoo to pull from to develop state of the art engine tech.

That's part of the problem with BMW, it's losing ground fast technology-wise to the big boys like Ford, VW Group, Toyota which partially explains the deterioration in BMW quality and the competition like Ford passing BMW in performance! They are trying to keep up with 1/10th the budget and total lack of economies of scale.
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      07-12-2010, 03:18 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by roundel View Post
Ford has tons of R&D $$$ not to mention resources up the wazoo to pull from to develop state of the art engine tech.

That's part of the problem with BMW, it's losing ground fast technology-wise to the big boys like Ford, VW Group, Toyota which partially explains the deterioration in BMW quality and the competition like Ford passing BMW in performance! They are trying to keep up with 1/10th the budget and total lack of economies of scale.

Ford tech > BMW. That's just how it is.
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      07-12-2010, 04:06 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Ford tech > BMW. That's just how it is.
Well no, my family is a Ford family. That should read: Ford of Eutpe tech> or =BMW.
My parents had a Ford LTD, then a 78 T bird, then a 87 Lincoln Town Car wit the underpowered 5.0, I had a 87 Ford Taurus that like to run hot and go thru water pumps, same thing with my sister's Mercury Sable.
Then the fact that Ford let Lincoln languish and be the "old man's ride", save for the Mark VIII and the LS, which they discontinued.

Ford had to come out with the 5.0, that 4.6 sounded good, but needed to be updated and more power.

All of you guys saying BMW r/d sucks, last time I checked the V10, and V8s were done at the F1 facility... And let's not get into the legendary S54 (yes even with the problems). Plus, they were in F1 and in Ama, BMW is like the Honda of Europe.
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      07-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by roundel View Post
Ford has tons of R&D $$$ not to mention resources up the wazoo to pull from to develop state of the art engine tech.
So - how is it that Ford has not one car that is outstanding in any criteria
Sorry - but Ford was never (ok maybe 50 years ago) and is not a car company that defines the pace for the automotive industry.
Ford is in no way premium. That means Ford will never be in a position to earn really much money per car. And regarding their competition in the mass market they stand no chance against VW and Toyota...
And - regarding your reference to "BMW and economies of scale". Mass is not a guaranty for success. Look at GM - my goodness! Following your thinking, BMW had to be dead for decades now. Guess what: They are not - they are currently enhancing their sales volume by 15% and I suspect they will innovate the industry with their upcoming premium megacity vehicle.... something Ford has to run after then.....
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      07-12-2010, 04:24 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
So - how is it that Ford has not one car that is outstanding in any criteria
Sorry - but Ford was never (ok maybe 50 years ago) and is not a car company that defines the pace for the automotive industry.
Ford is in no way premium. That means Ford will never be in a position to earn really much money per car. And regarding their competition in the mass market they stand no chance against VW and Toyota...
And - regarding your reference to "BMW and economies of scale". Mass is not a guaranty for success. Look at GM - my goodness! Following your thinking, BMW had to be dead for decades now. Guess what: They are not - they are currently enhancing their sales volume by 15% and I suspect they will innovate the industry with their upcoming premium megacity vehicle.... something Ford has to run after then.....
You have no idea what you're talking about. Most of Ford's current cars are near or at the top of their respective fields in reliability, value, efficiency, etc.
Look at the F-150, Mustang, Fusion, Taurus, etc. All of them are kicking but sales wise and review wise. "Ford will never be in a position to earn much money per car" Are you serious? There is still big profits in the truck market. You also missed the article on how consumers are asking for more ECO-BOOST motors in the Taurus cars. It clearly states it is boosting the profits. How about the Ford Transit. They already have an electric version of it. Keep your blinders on. Ford and Hyundai have been the ones to watch.

You go on and on about BMW being some sort of industry leader. There is plenty of room for others. Name me one thing BMW has done that Audi hasn't done. They've got V8's and V10's that go screaming past 8,000rpms too.

Premium Megacity?? Haha. That is untested waters. So by your thinking BMW is catching up to Nissan with their Leaf that goes on sale this Dec.
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      07-12-2010, 04:25 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
So - how is it that Ford has not one car that is outstanding in any criteria
Sorry - but Ford was never (ok maybe 50 years ago) and is not a car company that defines the pace for the automotive industry.
Ford is in no way premium. That means Ford will never be in a position to earn really much money per car. And regarding their competition in the mass market they stand no chance against VW and Toyota...
And - regarding your reference to "BMW and economies of scale". Mass is not a guaranty for success. Look at GM - my goodness! Following your thinking, BMW had to be dead for decades now. Guess what: They are not - they are currently enhancing their sales volume by 15% and I suspect they will innovate the industry with their upcoming premium megacity vehicle.... something Ford has to run after then.....
Whuh?

2011 Mustang GT is faster in a straight line than the M3, gets better fuel economy, and nearly equals it in raw handling/braking performance for half the cost. It blows away anything within 10 grand in terms of performance.

The V6 in the Mustang puts down as much HP as the N54, while also deliving vastly superior fuel efficiency. It's an NA motor...

The EcoBoost V6 is superior to the N54 in all regards.

The Ford Fusion didn't win MT's Car of the Year for no reason, it's outstanding.

Their hybrid technology is far more advanced than BMW's.

In general, their cars rank as more reliable.

This isn't dumping on BMW, BMWs still offer other things that appeal to many drivers, but at this point Ford's engine tech is quite clearly superior, and their ability to produce a competent performance car at a very low price point is without question.
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      07-12-2010, 04:27 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Spartikus View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Most of Ford's current cars are near or at the top of their respective fields in reliability, value, efficiency, etc.
Look at the F-150, Mustang, Fusion, Taurus, etc. All of them are kicking but sales wise and review wise. "Ford will never be in a position to earn much money per car" Are you serious? There is still big profits in the truck market. You also missed the article on how consumers are asking for more ECO-BOOST motors in the Taurus cars. It clearly states it is boosting the profits. How about the Ford Transit. They already have an electric version of it. Keep your blinders on. Ford and Hyundai have been the ones to watch.

You go on and on about BMW being some sort of industry leader. There is plenty of room for others. Name me one thing BMW has done that Audi hasn't done. They've got V8's and V10's that go screaming past 8,000rpms too.

Premium Megacity?? Haha. That is untested waters. So by your thinking BMW is catching up to Nissan with their Leaf that goes on sale this Dec.
The NSX offered equal hp/liter with vastly superior reliability 10+ years ago. Look up dynos, the car is massively under-rated and will run high 12s in the 1/4th stock.

Let me put it this way, I'm VERY glad I bought Ford stock when it was at it's low, because I have a feeling I'll get my money back 10 fold in a decade or so.
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