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      09-09-2015, 12:44 AM   #1
wjk_glynn
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Square 264s :: 18x8.5 ET52 front & back, with 245/35R18 RE050A RFT tires all around

Hi folks,

Many on this forum have noted they’ve installed Square 264 (or 313) rims with success. But when I’ve searched around, there doesn’t seem to be a ton of photos/specifics – at least in comparison to Apex and VMR installations.

So just for reference, here's my (no-rub) setup and experience… for what it’s worth…

Suspension Setup
Rims, Tires and Spacers
  • 4x 18x8.5 ET52 Style 264 rims
  • 4x 245/35 R18 Bridgestone RE050A RFT tires
  • 4x 10mm hub-centric spacers from Burger Motorsports

Alignment
  • Front:
    -2.2° negative camber, 1/32" toe-in per side, 7° caster
  • Rear:
    -1.8° negative camber, 1/16" toe-in per side

Ride Height
  • After installing the suspension parts listed above, I measured the following average drop in ride height as compared to the ZSP sport suspension with ~70K miles:
    - Front: 9 mm drop
    - Rear: 15 mm drop
  • The Dinan camber plates are ~6.5 mm thick and add to the stack height of the front suspension
  • This implies that the BMW Performance Suspension actually drops the suspension height by an average of 15 mm, more than the 10 mm per BMW’s product specifications
  • Visually the drop looks pretty even front to back, at least to my eyes

Clearance
  • The fenders are stock, with no rolling/pulling
  • The car has been driven over a variety of roads and conditions and there doesn’t appear to be any rub
  • Front:
    - Visually it looks extremely close from the tire to the outside edge of the fender, I'm kinda amazed there isn't rub
    - Can’t imagine fitting any wider tire, at that camber angle
    - Clearance between the front rim & tire to the strut is somewhere between 1/8” and 1/4" (i.e. ~5 mm) - measured using the feel blindly and guess technique
  • Rear:
    - At the beginning, I had 12 mm spacers in the rear but they rubbed under conditions of heavy suspension compression
    - Switched to 10 mm in the rear, same as the fronts
    - No problem since

Driving Impressions
  • Steering feel comes across as having a bit more stiction
  • No perceptible change in ride quality
  • Understeer is significantly reduced, but not eliminated
    - Don’t know how much is due to wider front rims/tires, or increased camber
  • Really the big change is that you can get the nose to point in more quickly, thus greatly increases confidence (at least for me)

There you have it.

Karl.

PS: And now a few pics (please excuse the dirt):
  • #5 and #6 show the front fender clearance
  • #7 and #8 the rear…
Attached Images
        
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Last edited by wjk_glynn; 07-04-2016 at 12:16 PM.. Reason: Add note about where the spacers came from...
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      09-09-2015, 06:19 AM   #2
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looks like they fit way better than my setup:
Suspension Setup:
Stock, free camber mod, M3 control arms


Rims, Tires and Spacers
4x 18x8.5 ET52 rims
4x 255/35 R18 Dunlop Direzza ZII
4x 10mm hub-centric spacers

Alignment:
not known

Clearance:
awful until I rolled the fenders and shaved the bumper tab, after rolling there are no problems

Driving Impressions (going from michelin PSS to Dunlop ZIIs as well)
Steering feel is heavier
No change in ride quality, a bit noisier
terminal grip is very high


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      09-09-2015, 09:13 AM   #3
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Hero, do you think in your experience if you originally went with 235/40 front and 245/35 rear Zll's you would need fender work with your setup?
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      09-09-2015, 11:28 AM   #4
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I run a 235/40 R 18 on mine and they are only for the track. Same wheels as yours.

Suspension: TC Kline D/A coilovers with Ground Control Camber plates and Swift Springs (400F/720R), M3 front control arms and sway bar, HP Autowerks adjustable end links, Eibach Rear sway bar, M3 rear trailing arms, Adjustable toe links.

Tires: Federal 595 RS-R with a 15mm Spacer up front.

My oversteer is literally non existent. And handles phenomenally on track. Camber up front is -2.8 with 0 caster and -2.0 rear. can't remember my toe.

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      09-09-2015, 02:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocklanders View Post
Hero, do you think in your experience if you originally went with 235/40 front and 245/35 rear Zll's you would need fender work with your setup?
Nope, tbh i think 245s might have worked in the front if I had similar ride height but stiffer springs/shocks.

When I originally sized everything I was using PSS 245/35 tires
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      01-27-2016, 11:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjk_glynn View Post
Hi folks,

Many on this forum have noted they’ve installed Square 264 (or 313) rims with success. But when I’ve searched around, there doesn’t seem to be a ton of photos/specifics – at least in comparison to Apex and VMR installations.

So just for reference, here's my (no-rub) setup and experience… for what it’s worth…

Suspension Setup
Rims, Tires and Spacers
  • 4x 18x8.5 ET52 Style 264 rims
  • 4x 245/35 R18 Bridgestone RE050A RFT tires
  • 4x 10mm hub-centric spacers from Burger Motorsports

Alignment
  • Front:
    -2.2° negative camber, 1/32" toe-in per side, 7° caster
  • Rear:
    -1.8° negative camber, 1/16" toe-in per side

Ride Height
  • After installing the suspension parts listed above, I measured the following average drop in ride height as compared to the ZSP sport suspension with ~70K miles:
    - Front: 9 mm drop
    - Rear: 15 mm drop
  • The Dinan camber plates are ~6.5 mm thick and add to the stack height of the front suspension
  • This implies that the BMW Performance Suspension actually drops the suspension height by an average of 15 mm, more than the 10 mm per BMW’s product specifications
  • Visually the drop looks pretty even front to back, at least to my eyes

Clearance
  • The fenders are stock, with no rolling/pulling
  • The car has been driven over a variety of roads and conditions and there doesn’t appear to be any rub
  • Front:
    - Visually it looks extremely close from the tire to the outside edge of the fender, I'm kinda amazed there isn't rub
    - Can’t imagine fitting any wider tire, at that camber angle
    - Clearance between the front rim & tire to the strut is somewhere between 1/8” and 1/4" (i.e. ~5 mm) - measured using the feel blindly and guess technique
  • Rear:
    - At the beginning, I had 12 mm spacers in the rear but they rubbed under conditions of heavy suspension compression
    - Switched to 10 mm in the rear, same as the fronts
    - No problem since

Driving Impressions
  • Steering feel comes across as having a bit more stiction
  • No perceptible change in ride quality
  • Understeer is significantly reduced, but not eliminated
    - Don’t know how much is due to wider front rims/tires, or increased camber
  • Really the big change is that you can get the nose to point in more quickly, thus greatly increases confidence (at least for me)

There you have it.

Karl.

PS: And now a few pics (please excuse the dirt):
  • #5 and #6 show the front fender clearance
  • #7 and #8 the rear…
thanks for sharing. something ive considered
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      04-01-2016, 05:46 PM   #7
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Bringing up an older thread. I've been thinking about running a square set up and wasn't sure about running a set of wider rear rims in the front.

The BMWPS w/ M3 arms and Dinan camber plates is the exact suspension set up I've been considering so its great to hear it can be done!

Seems the difference here is alignment and tires. Good to know it is possible.


#1 No rub set up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjk_glynn View Post
Square 264 (or 313) rims with success.

Suspension Setup
BMW Performance Suspension (p/n 33500444831, 31336788891 and 33536788898)
Dinan Camber Plates
M3 Front Control Arms

Rims, Tires and Spacers
4x 18x8.5 ET52 Style 264 rims
4x 245/35 R18 Bridgestone RE050A RFT tires
4x 10mm hub-centric spacers from Burger Motorsports


Alignment
Front:
-2.2° negative camber, 1/32" toe-in per side, 7° caster
Rear:
-1.8° negative camber, 1/16" toe-in per side

Clearance
The fenders are stock, with no rolling/pulling
The car has been driven over a variety of roads and conditions and there doesn’t appear to be any rub

Front:
- Visually it looks extremely close from the tire to the outside edge of the fender, I'm kinda amazed there isn't rub
- Can’t imagine fitting any wider tire, at that camber angle
- Clearance between the front rim & tire to the strut is somewhere between 1/8” and 1/4" (i.e. ~5 mm) - measured using the feel blindly and guess technique

Rear:
- At the beginning, I had 12 mm spacers in the rear but they rubbed under conditions of heavy suspension compression
- Switched to 10 mm in the rear, same as the fronts
- No problem since

Driving Impressions
Steering feel comes across as having a bit more stiction
No perceptible change in ride quality
Understeer is significantly reduced, but not eliminated
- Don’t know how much is due to wider front rims/tires, or increased camber
Really the big change is that you can get the nose to point in more quickly, thus greatly increases confidence (at least for me)

There you have it.

Karl.


#2 Oh No!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowbudgethero View Post
Suspension Setup:
Stock, free camber mod, M3 control arms

Rims, Tires and Spacers
4x 18x8.5 ET52 rims
4x 255/35 R18 Dunlop Direzza ZII
4x 10mm hub-centric spacers

Alignment:
not known

Clearance:
awful until I rolled the fenders and shaved the bumper tab, after rolling there are no problems


Setup #3 also works but narrower tires which I would expect to grip less, but added M3 front say and other parts + non-runflats, all which seem to have relieved even more understeer.

Which M3 front bar are you running - the E92 or E93 version?
Does adding the stiffer rear bar make a big addition or did you change it all to this set up at one time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsabor67 View Post
I run a 235/40 R 18 on mine and they are only for the track. Same wheels as yours.

Suspension:
TC Kline D/A coilovers
w/ Ground Control Camber plates
Swift Springs (400F/720R),
M3 front control arms and [M3] sway bar, HP Autowerks adjustable end links,
Eibach Rear sway bar, M3 rear trailing arms, Adjustable toe links.

Tires: Federal 595 RS-R with a 15mm Spacer up front.

My oversteer is literally non existent.
And handles phenomenally on track.

Camber up front is -2.8 with 0 caster and -2.0 rear. can't remember my toe.
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Last edited by Gangplank; 04-01-2016 at 05:57 PM..
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      10-09-2016, 05:36 PM   #8
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Just an update on clearance after fitting different tires...

I recently switched from the Bridgestone RFTs to the following square setup (no other changes):

4x Hankook Ventus RS3 235/40 R18

Everything else is the same.

However... with these new tires I now have some rubbing up front where the front passenger tire rubs against the back of the oil cooler vents at larger steering angles (e.g. maneuvering around parking lots).

I think the reason is that these new 235/40 tires are taller than the previous 245/35 RFTs, and so they're just that bit closer to the vent.

Because the rubbing doesn't happen with regular driving, track days, etc. (just at large steering angles), it's acceptable to me.

But just wanted to share for others with square 264 setups...

Karl.
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      10-10-2016, 02:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Bringing up an older thread. I've been thinking about running a square set up and wasn't sure about running a set of wider rear rims in the front.

The BMWPS w/ M3 arms and Dinan camber plates is the exact suspension set up I've been considering so its great to hear it can be done!

Seems the difference here is alignment and tires. Good to know it is possible.


#1 No rub set up!




#2 Oh No!




Setup #3 also works but narrower tires which I would expect to grip less, but added M3 front say and other parts + non-runflats, all which seem to have relieved even more understeer.

Which M3 front bar are you running - the E92 or E93 version?
Does adding the stiffer rear bar make a big addition or did you change it all to this set up at one time?
Hey @Gangplank, The tires sizes are really ideal and aired to 34PSI all around. Once warmed up they stick very well and provide good feel and feedback. The rear bar provided a slightly stiffer rear but is still compliant and works really well keeping the back planted together. I am running the E92 front sway bar.

This was literally my 4th suspension setup and had just switched out from a AST 4150 single adjustable with Swift springs. Before then, I had H&R super sports on stock struts and then a Eibach Pro Kit with dampers and springs. Then I did the sub frame bushings, then the M3 control arms, then the AST with Vorshlag plates and now the TC Klines with Vorshlag plates.
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      10-10-2016, 07:52 PM   #10
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With the 8.5 261m wheels it appears to run on the strut. Very close with the 10mm spacer. Not sure how to get around this problem - I think 12mm spacers would not work on the fender.

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      10-11-2016, 01:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 500AF View Post
With the 8.5 261m wheels it appears to run on the strut. Very close with the 10mm spacer. Not sure how to get around this problem - I think 12mm spacers would not work on the fender.

Yes they will fit. I can run either 12.5 or a 15mm. The 15mm though, depending on the tire will rub not on the fender but on the inner bumper cover under full compression. I run 235/40-18 and mine rub on the upper edge of the bumper cover. Another thing you may want to do if you have not done so is do the M3 control arm swap. Add's a degree and a half more of camber (more or less). Camber plates are another option also.

I plan on trying the 12.5 for next track season here. That is a shot of my car coming into Brunnchen (Nurburgring).

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      10-12-2016, 11:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsabor67 View Post
Yes they will fit. I can run either 12.5 or a 15mm. The 15mm though, depending on the tire will rub not on the fender but on the inner bumper cover under full compression. I run 235/40-18 and mine rub on the upper edge of the bumper cover. Another thing you may want to do if you have not done so is do the M3 control arm swap. Add's a degree and a half more of camber (more or less). Camber plates are another option also.

I plan on trying the 12.5 for next track season here. That is a shot of my car coming into Brunnchen (Nurburgring).

Thanks for the response. So are you saying the 12mm ones will fit?

The 10mm ones are rubbing. I did order the 12mm ones to try.

Sounds like I need to get the m3 control arms.

I really want to get this to work, thanks!
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      06-09-2017, 02:04 PM   #13
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Anyone know if I can run square 8.5" (rear) 313s on the whole car? It probably would help a bit with tire longevity (assuming I don't have to go crazy with camber or what not?) and it'd cut down on the understeer. I'm just curious as to what it would take to do and what compromises there are with doing that.

Are there any issues with running 8.5" in the front besides possible rubbing? Would it affect handling or how the suspension performs overall?

I was trying to remember my physics classes but I thought I'd hear from anyone who knows more about this topic than me.

I'm on a 135is, if that makes any significant difference.
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      06-13-2017, 04:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TridenTBoy View Post
Anyone know if I can run square 8.5" (rear) 313s on the whole car? It probably would help a bit with tire longevity (assuming I don't have to go crazy with camber or what not?) and it'd cut down on the understeer. I'm just curious as to what it would take to do and what compromises there are with doing that.

Are there any issues with running 8.5" in the front besides possible rubbing? Would it affect handling or how the suspension performs overall?

I was trying to remember my physics classes but I thought I'd hear from anyone who knows more about this topic than me.

I'm on a 135is, if that makes any significant difference.
You need 10mm spacers to make the rear 313s fit on the front, I'd stick to 245 tires unless you want to roll the fenders and shave some metal (ask me how i know ). My setup has a bit more tram lining that stock, but has way less understeer.

Everything was kosher with 245 Michelin super sports with just the strut tower camber mod. When I switched to 255 dunlops I would rub badly until I did some fender rolling/pulling.
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      06-13-2017, 06:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowbudgethero View Post
You need 10mm spacers to make the rear 313s fit on the front, I'd stick to 245 tires unless you want to roll the fenders and shave some metal (ask me how i know ). My setup has a bit more tram lining that stock, but has way less understeer.

Everything was kosher with 245 Michelin super sports with just the strut tower camber mod. When I switched to 255 dunlops I would rub badly until I did some fender rolling/pulling.
I think 245 would be fine. 255 would be nice but I don't feel like modifying the car in such a way that isn't reversible. Although, 245, they are harder to come by in my experience. Are we talking 245/35R18?
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      06-15-2017, 10:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TridenTBoy View Post
I think 245 would be fine. 255 would be nice but I don't feel like modifying the car in such a way that isn't reversible. Although, 245, they are harder to come by in my experience. Are we talking 245/35R18?
Yeah, 245/35/18. It did pain me to do that on a relatively new car at the time.

I think the dunlops are also just wider in general because of a square shoulder profile.
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      05-08-2018, 07:23 PM   #17
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Resurrecting this thread. I finally got around to order the bmw performance suspension kit. I am still trying to figure out how to get the square setup in the front. Mine rubbed with the stock suspension and 10mm spacers.

Does the OP or anyone else no if I still want to do this (square setup) should I add the camber plates and m3 control arms? It did not work with the stock suspension and 10mm spacer.

Since it will already be apart I might as well add it then so I can do the square tire setup.
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      05-08-2018, 07:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 500AF View Post
...Does the OP or anyone else no if I still want to do this (square setup) should I add the camber plates and m3 control arms? It did not work with the stock suspension and 10mm spacer.
Hi,

With my setup (fully detailed in the top post), it was extremely close, but no rub (and no rolled fenders).

See the section "Clearance" above for more info.

Then later (post #8), I moved from a 245/35 R18 to a 235/40 R18 tire, and the fronts rubbed the back of the oil cooler vents (tires were that bit taller).

Karl.
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      05-08-2018, 08:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjk_glynn View Post
Hi,

With my setup (fully detailed in the top post), it was extremely close, but no rub (and no rolled fenders).

See the section "Clearance" above for more info.

Then later (post #8), I moved from a 245/35 R18 to a 235/40 R18 tire, and the fronts rubbed the back of the oil cooler vents (tires were that bit taller).

Karl.
Thats what I am going to do but I think to pull it off you must get the camber plates and m control arms you have listed.

Did you get the oem bmw control arms or the trw ones?
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      05-09-2018, 07:09 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 500AF View Post
Did you get the oem bmw control arms or the trw ones?
TRW
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      06-24-2020, 03:40 PM   #21
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reviving thread from the dead... I just got a square setup pf 261M style wheels and doing the same I was thinking 255/35 square setup... look like 10mm is the magic number for spacing the wheel... any other tips?

Car is on stock suspension so might add a little bit of camber with eh free trick camber mod...
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      06-24-2020, 03:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexxv View Post
reviving thread from the dead... I just got a square setup pf 261M style wheels and doing the same I was thinking 255/35 square setup... look like 10mm is the magic number for spacing the wheel... any other tips?

Car is on stock suspension so might add a little bit of camber with eh free trick camber mod...
I use a 12MM Spacer. But I also have coilovers, camber plates, M Arms, and have the fender to bumper connection shaved down quite a bit.
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