BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-14-2008, 03:50 PM   #23
Lax1bmw
Enlisted Member
0
Rep
43
Posts

Drives: 1999 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY / NJ

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Lax1bmw
Anyone know anything about mastercard's policy?
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:08 PM   #24
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

On one hand I see where the dealer is coming from not wanting to pay some huge percentage of their profit to Visa/MC, but on the other hand they are the ones that agreed to the terms laid out by Visa/MC. It's not like they are required to accept Visa/MC by law. They decided that they wanted to accept Visa/MC for oil changes and parts orders, and in turn they signed an agreement with Visa/MC that says that they also have to accept those cards for the full purchase price of a car. They knew that going in, and they try their best to bully people into not using their cards, but occasionally a savvy buyer comes along that knows the rules, and in those cases I think they need to just suck it up and accept the card.

Not to mention they get kickbacks like this themselves by financing people through certain banks. Some finance guys will even lie and stick people with a rate that is a littler higher then the lowest rate available because they get a bigger kickback from the bank with the higher rate. If they can pull crap like that to make money, then I see no problem with the occasional savvy buyer sticking them with the Visa/MC bill after buying a car.

I'm going to try to pay my down payment on a Visa and see what they say. However that's only going to be about $10K, so it's not as bad as the OPs situation.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:09 PM   #25
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lax1bmw View Post
Anyone know anything about mastercard's policy?
Visa and MC have pretty much identical policies.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:36 PM   #26
pwillcutts
Private First Class
9
Rep
186
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtheo View Post
Valid point, but it just proves that there are no winners between the dealer & visa. The dealer atleast will have the option of using other credit cards & such.

I agree with the above poster that the op is basically changing the deal by trying to force the dealer to eat that extra cash. Would it really be any different if the dealer suddenly raised an interest rate on a (done) deal? I'm sure the op doesn't care, but if it were me & at the last moment he decided to force a cc charge for the entire amount costing me money out of my pocket, I'd personally let him walk. It's more the principal with me. But it goes both ways. If I mess up pricing on a car & make a deal to sell for too cheap, I honor my deal.
WOW ! I am completely dumbfounded by you guys!?

Where is all this "ethical" judgement of me coming from....FOR SIMPLY USING MY VISA CARD!?

I am the one playing by the rules here! It's the Dealer who is lying to people and telling them they can't use their VISA cards over a certain amount when the Dealer knows darn well that it is not true !

Trust me,the dealer does not need your sympathy here; they make plenty of money on us as it is, such as the many thousands they will make on my car purchase by selling it to me at $500 below MSRP - BUT WELL ABOVE THEIR COST!

They are smart business people and price the car where they can make the most profit given what the market will bear. I accept that, and agreed to buy the car at their offerred price.

But how on earth is it unethical for the buyer to use his VISA card to pay for the car that will deliver thousands of dollars profit to the dealer who is in the business of selling me this car !??!!??

I'm at a loss for words at your reactions here.....this is just business. Don't cry for the dealer.........I think they are doing just fine even if I use my VISA !

Boy, with my my little attempt to save money with my VISA, you guys must really HATE the thread about savings $2k off MSRP by Robert Payne ! How I Scored a Fabulous Deal from the Comfort of My Easy Chair

I for one will sleep at night with clear conscience, for just (god forbid!) following the rules of VISA to pay for my $40,000 car!! My poor dealer... I hope he survives geting "screwed" so bad !:bs:
__________________

135i Convertible
Crimson Red w/ Taupe soft top
Taupe 'ette & Light Burl Walnut trim
Steptronic
Cold Weather Package
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:48 PM   #27
ARES45
Major
21
Rep
1,002
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Well said, pw, the dealer stands to cover their 800 dollar loss and still come out making plenty of money.
__________________
"Don't run, you'll only die tired" ~ Gunship Pilot
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:49 PM   #28
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

I think the reason some people are taking this so personally is because dealers tend to pass on these sorts of "losses" to the salesman. So it's the little guy, and not the dealer, who is getting screwed in the end.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:50 PM   #29
ARES45
Major
21
Rep
1,002
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Don't hate the player, hate the game.
__________________
"Don't run, you'll only die tired" ~ Gunship Pilot
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 04:52 PM   #30
pwillcutts
Private First Class
9
Rep
186
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WannaBe View Post
While you're entitled to pursue this as far as you care to, I personally don't agree with it. I think it's unreasonable to assume that the dealer will eat an $800 charge to accommodate you. If you'd been upfront about your preferred payment method when negotiating the price, that'd be one thing, but that wasn't the case.

Just as we all hate it when dealers try to change the terms of an agreement with hidden fees, etc., I think the reverse is similarly unethical. You may be "right", in the sense that the Visa contract requires the dealer to honor it, but it doesn't pass my "fair and reasonable" test. That's as a fellow consumer.

All of the above is my OPINION. Good luck with your car purchase.

Edit: I see John beat me to the punch while I was slaving over the keyboard.
Your logic absolutely confounds me. If you want to talk about being "UPFRONT" & "fair and reasonable" ", why not then have the dealer just reveal his true cost to me (not MSRP) and negotiate from there?!
Do you have any idea the profit that is buried into these cars for these guys? And the years of profit on servicing a loyal,happy customer's car?

And Again...no one forced the Dealer to agree to VISA's terms....that was their business decision....and has NOTHING to do with me. They can go cry to VISA if they want!

So I guess you payed full price so as not to be accused of being "Unethical" in your dealings with your dealer. :bs:
Please! Gimme a break guys................
__________________

135i Convertible
Crimson Red w/ Taupe soft top
Taupe 'ette & Light Burl Walnut trim
Steptronic
Cold Weather Package
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:02 PM   #31
john970
1er
46
Rep
1,203
Posts

Drives: 08 135
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver

iTrader: (0)

Let me expand on my original opinion...

Dealers pay a certain amount for the car and sell it for some amount over that to cover expenses and make a profit. In order to maximize profit, they try to make the transaction very complicated so the average buyer is at a disadvantage in the negotiation process (i.e. rip off the consumer). This is an effort by the buyer to do the same thing and screw the dealer back.

So all in all, I am for this, but admit that you are sort of screwing them vicariously through Visa.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:04 PM   #32
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

I paid full MSRP, with absolutely no freebies, so the dealer is making a handy profit off me. That's why I have no problem asking them to eat $200 to allow me to put my down payment onto a Visa. However I really want this car, so if they absolutely refuse then I'll just cave and give them a check. That's the price I pay for wanting the car so bad. If you're willing to say "take it, or leave it" then be prepared for them to say leave it and for you to be standing their without your new car.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:04 PM   #33
pwillcutts
Private First Class
9
Rep
186
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john970 View Post
Visa charging 2% fees is crappy in the first place and puts vendors in a precarious position. I guess all is fair in love and war, especially with car dealers that are scam artists almost by definition, but I think you are sort of screwing them.

And before I get yelled at, I mean car dealerships are shady places not necessarily all of the people that work there.
Lest I repeat myself......

Wow you guys are unreal. Or is naive a better word?

Get over it....the dealer is doing fine....and I am not screwing anyone here....I am just playing by the rules!

If you don't like the rules...don't play....and go cancel your VISA agreement....and watch your dealership go under because consumers will want a dealer who accepts VISA!!! Then the dealer down the street will get everyone's business!

please..........
__________________

135i Convertible
Crimson Red w/ Taupe soft top
Taupe 'ette & Light Burl Walnut trim
Steptronic
Cold Weather Package
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:07 PM   #34
john970
1er
46
Rep
1,203
Posts

Drives: 08 135
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwillcutts View Post
Lest I repeat myself......

Wow you guys are unreal. Or is naive a better word?

Get over it....the dealer is doing fine....and I am not screwing anyone here....I am just playing by the rules!

If you don't like the rules...don't play....and go cancel your VISA agreement....and watch your dealership go under because consumers will want a dealer who accepts VISA!!! Then the dealer down the street will get everyone's business!

please..........
You sound like a cop giving someone a ticket for jaywalking and ignoring reality. Stuff written down does not equal the way things are...

By the way I agree with what you are doing, screw them they aren't exactly the salvation army.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:09 PM   #35
john970
1er
46
Rep
1,203
Posts

Drives: 08 135
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
I paid full MSRP, with absolutely no freebies, so the dealer is making a handy profit off me. That's why I have no problem asking them to eat $200 to allow me to put my down payment onto a Visa. However I really want this car, so if they absolutely refuse then I'll just cave and give them a check. That's the price I pay for wanting the car so bad. If you're willing to say "take it, or leave it" then be prepared for them to say leave it and for you to be standing their without your new car.

Dan
$200 is 2% of $10,000... you got a pretty sweet deal on your car.

Was that a lease or down payment or something like that?
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:13 PM   #36
pwillcutts
Private First Class
9
Rep
186
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john970 View Post
Let me expand on my original opinion...

Dealers pay a certain amount for the car and sell it for some amount over that to cover expenses and make a profit. In order to maximize profit, they try to make the transaction very complicated so the average buyer is at a disadvantage in the negotiation process (i.e. rip off the consumer). This is an effort by the buyer to do the same thing and screw the dealer back.

So all in all, I am for this, but admit that you are sort of screwing them vicariously through Visa.
Admit what????? That they made an agrement with VISA that allows me to pay for my car with my VISA?? Why is it my problem what the dealer has agreed to pay VISA? I am "sort of screwing" no-one here . Gimme a break !!

Next you'll tell me I "sort-of-screwed" the dealer in a round-about way by stripping my car order of all the "extras" like NAV and bluetooth, becuase that's where the poor dealer makes the most profit. My poor poor dealer.....please! Has this become a dealer website or something??!!

Please....you're killing me here with this lame logic
__________________

135i Convertible
Crimson Red w/ Taupe soft top
Taupe 'ette & Light Burl Walnut trim
Steptronic
Cold Weather Package
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:20 PM   #37
pwillcutts
Private First Class
9
Rep
186
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john970 View Post
You sound like a cop giving someone a ticket for jaywalking and ignoring reality. Stuff written down does not equal the way things are...

By the way I agree with what you are doing, screw them they aren't exactly the salvation army.
not following your cop analogy at all. ignoring reality? Stuff written down does not what?? nevermind.....

So after all that, you agree with me. OK....glad you approve

Peace.
__________________

135i Convertible
Crimson Red w/ Taupe soft top
Taupe 'ette & Light Burl Walnut trim
Steptronic
Cold Weather Package
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:32 PM   #38
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john970 View Post
$200 is 2% of $10,000... you got a pretty sweet deal on your car.

Was that a lease or down payment or something like that?
Down payment. I'm doing a 50/50 cash/finance. I already gave them $2,500 when I ordered the car, and my trade is worth about $10K, so the remainder will be about $10K. I'm hoping to charge that $10K on my Visa

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:37 PM   #39
Jewpac
Marty Turco Hater
22
Rep
768
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Feb 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_UP View Post
Most contracts to purchase a vehicle include HOW you will be paying. So even if at the last minute you tell them you tell them you will be paying 100% with Visa and inform them that they are required to accept your Visa they most likely will just not write up a contract to purchase... at least at the orally agreed upon price.
I doubt Visa would take any recourse against the dealer for refusing your business.

Also, do you really have a card with a 40K+ limit that will allow you to charge a single 40K transaction? Wow! I would think that transaction would get declined unless you have a history of high $ transactions on that card.
VISA will discontinue their merchant agreement and they will no longer be authorized to accept VISA cards.
__________________
135i, Alpine White, Taupe Leatherette, iPod USB adaptor, 6MT

Delivery Wednesday 5/7
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:41 PM   #40
alexp1_tx
Private First Class
10
Rep
170
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Jan 2008

iTrader: (0)

Dan203 So are you getting the car for 22500.00$, what kind of deal did u get?
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:44 PM   #41
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

The more I think about this, the more I agree with pwillcutts. Every business that accepts Visa/MC agrees to pay 2% of the sale as a processing fee. Just because this is a larger purchase and equates to a bigger number shouldn't make a difference. Do you think BestBuy would refuse to sell you a $5K flat screen TV just because it was going to cost them $100 for you to charge it on your Visa? No! Even if that ended up eating away the majority of their profit they'd still take it, because that's the cost of doing business.

Now if the dealer had given pwillcutts some phenomenal deal, and using the Visa was actually going to cause them to lose money on the car, then I could see them making a stink over it. However based on his posts, and the config in his sig, the dealer is making about $2500 off of his car. If they end up eating $800 because he pays for it with a Visa then they will still make $1700. To me that's not a bad profit for selling 1 car.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:47 PM   #42
M3WannaBe
Loiterer
1
Rep
44
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: May 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwillcutts View Post
Your logic absolutely confounds me. If you want to talk about being "UPFRONT" & "fair and reasonable" ", why not then have the dealer just reveal his true cost to me (not MSRP) and negotiate from there?!

Do you have any idea the profit that is buried into these cars for these guys? And the years of profit on servicing a loyal,happy customer's car?

And Again...no one forced the Dealer to agree to VISA's terms....that was their business decision....and has NOTHING to do with me. They can go cry to VISA if they want!


So I guess you payed full price so as not to be accused of being "Unethical" in your dealings with your dealer.
Please! Gimme a break guys................
The purchase price is irrelevant, whether it was MSRP, invoice, or something in-between. Why? Because you mutually agreed on it. No surprises. The only surprise in your scenario is that the dealer is making $800 less on the deal than they thought they were because you want get an additional $1700 back in credit card rewards. Given that virtually no one attempts to pay for a $40k car with a credit card, it's reasonable to assume that the dealer negotiated your deal with the assumption that you'd be paying via cash or traditional financing.

My point is that this type of activity is why people usually hate car dealers in the first place. Unexpected charges after a deal has been agreed upon. I personally hate when people do it to me, therefore I wouldn't do it to someone else. Your justifications about how much the dealer is making are irrelevant. You're changing the terms of the deal in a way that most any reasonable person would find objectionable.

My comment about it being unethical boils down to this: you would object (strenuously, I'd wager) if the dealer attempted to add $800 to your cost for the vehicle after you'd agreed to a price. It all comes down to the Golden Rule, and in this scenario, I don't believe you'd accept an additional $800 charge if the situation were reversed, regardless of the fine print.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:48 PM   #43
Dan203
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
102
Rep
1,581
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carson City, NV

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp1_tx View Post
Dan203 So are you getting the car for 22500.00$, what kind of deal did u get?
No I paid $44K for the car. (full MSRP) With tax it's $47,500. I plan to trade in my car, which is worth about $10K, then put $12,500 cash down and finance the rest. I already paid $2,500 in cash as a deposit, so the remaining $10K is what I want to charge on the Visa.

Dan
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2008, 05:48 PM   #44
M3WannaBe
Loiterer
1
Rep
44
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: May 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
The more I think about this, the more I agree with pwillcutts. Every business that accepts Visa/MC agrees to pay 2% of the sale as a processing fee. Just because this is a larger purchase and equates to a bigger number shouldn't make a difference. Do you think BestBuy would refuse to sell you a $5K flat screen TV just because it was going to cost them $100 for you to charge it on your Visa? No! Even if that ended up eating away the majority of their profit they'd still take it, because that's the cost of doing business.

Now if the dealer had given pwillcutts some phenomenal deal, and using the Visa was actually going to cause them to lose money on the car, then I could see them making a stink over it. However based on his posts, and the config in his sig, the dealer is making about $2500 off of his car. If they end up eating $800 because he pays for it with a Visa then they will still make $1700. To me that's not a bad profit for selling 1 car.

Dan
Dan, IMO the difference is that retail stores with set pricing like Best Buy factor in CC fees when setting their retail prices. Car dealers almost certainly do not.

Edit: I've worked with a number of retailers, and got some insight into the difference between invoice and retail for many consumer products. If you choke on the smallish 10% markup that car dealers get, you'd gag when you realize how little Best Buy paid for that $5000 TV.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:15 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST