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      05-14-2008, 05:53 PM   #45
Dan203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WannaBe View Post
Dan, IMO the difference is that retail stores with set pricing like Best Buy factor in CC fees when setting their retail prices. Car dealers almost certainly do not.
Maybe they should! Plus it's not like the OP got some great deal. He's paying $500 below MSRP. The dealer still has plenty of profit left in the sale to eat the CC fee and still walk away ahead. If he had got some phenomenal deal on the car then I might be more sympathetic toward the dealer.

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      05-14-2008, 05:56 PM   #46
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The dealer never loses...but you are not screwing the dealer...your screwing other customers...

if he loses $800 he makes it up on the next sale or service appointment or parts sale....

This concept is not new...I have seen this on other sites...."I'm paying by credit card and thats it."

To be honest I have never seen anyone say they sealed the deal totally with a CC. You might be the first. But your not IMO doing me or anyone else any favors.


And yes...I have that much credit on my card.


Enjoy your car.
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      05-14-2008, 06:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by alexp1_tx View Post
Dan203 So are you getting the car for 22500.00$, what kind of deal did u get?
That would be the down payment.
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      05-14-2008, 06:07 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WannaBe View Post
The purchase price is irrelevant, whether it was MSRP, invoice, or something in-between. Why? Because you mutually agreed on it. No surprises. The only surprise in your scenario is that the dealer is making $800 less on the deal than they thought they were because you want get an additional $1700 back in credit card rewards. Given that virtually no one attempts to pay for a $40k car with a credit card, it's reasonable to assume that the dealer negotiated your deal with the assumption that you'd be paying via cash or traditional financing.

My point is that this type of activity is why people usually hate car dealers in the first place. Unexpected charges after a deal has been agreed upon. I personally hate when people do it to me, therefore I wouldn't do it to someone else. Your justifications about how much the dealer is making are irrelevant. You're changing the terms of the deal in a way that most any reasonable person would find objectionable.

My comment about it being unethical boils down to this: you would object (strenuously, I'd wager) if the dealer attempted to add $800 to your cost for the vehicle after you'd agreed to a price. It all comes down to the Golden Rule, and in this scenario, I don't believe you'd accept an additional $800 charge if the situation were reversed, regardless of the fine print.
GOLDEN RULE?! You are way off base here: We're not talking bible-study; just a simple business trasaction.

I think you've got a few too many assumptions built into what you claim to think I said to the dealer.

Credit cards are an accepted means for transactions around the world. Sorry, but that's the fact. The Dealer signs the VISA contracts, not me!

Calling me unethical for doing this seems not to pass the "fair and reasonable" test in my opinion. Business is business.

REASONABLE assumptions, as you term it, are a very SUBJECTIVE choice of words don't you think?

Again, are you a dealer or something? Why this great concern for me "screwing" someone for paying with my VISA for a car !? I thought this was an owner's website.
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      05-14-2008, 06:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WannaBe View Post
The purchase price is irrelevant, whether it was MSRP, invoice, or something in-between. Why? Because you mutually agreed on it. No surprises. The only surprise in your scenario is that the dealer is making $800 less on the deal than they thought they were because you want get an additional $1700 back in credit card rewards. Given that virtually no one attempts to pay for a $40k car with a credit card, it's reasonable to assume that the dealer negotiated your deal with the assumption that you'd be paying via cash or traditional financing.

My point is that this type of activity is why people usually hate car dealers in the first place. Unexpected charges after a deal has been agreed upon. I personally hate when people do it to me, therefore I wouldn't do it to someone else. Your justifications about how much the dealer is making are irrelevant. You're changing the terms of the deal in a way that most any reasonable person would find objectionable.

My comment about it being unethical boils down to this: you would object (strenuously, I'd wager) if the dealer attempted to add $800 to your cost for the vehicle after you'd agreed to a price. It all comes down to the Golden Rule, and in this scenario, I don't believe you'd accept an additional $800 charge if the situation were reversed, regardless of the fine print.
That is why no one should ever assume anything. Unless it is written into the contract that he is paying cash or accepting BMW financing he has the right to pay however he so chooses. Just becuase the dealer assums you are going to pay cash does not mean that you are in anyway obligated to pay cash, unless it is written into your purchase contract.

My family owns hotels, and we often have business travellers from out of the country stay for months at a time racking up tens of thousands of dollars in room fees and they pay with a credit card, should we not accpet that becuase we have to pay too large of a fee? I dont see how it is any different paying a 20K hotel bill with an AMEX or paying for a car with an AMEX. If the dealer wants the right to accept the cards, they should abide by the merchant agreement they signed before being allowed to accept the cards.
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      05-14-2008, 06:15 PM   #50
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This just reminded me of the time in college when I got a five dollar parking ticket and paid in mostly pennies and some nickels. The lady wasn't going to take it, however when she realized she had to she made me count it out in front of her. I took my time.
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      05-14-2008, 06:16 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwheat986 View Post
The dealer never loses...but you are not screwing the dealer...your screwing other customers...

if he loses $800 he makes it up on the next sale or service appointment or parts sale....

This concept is not new...I have seen this on other sites...."I'm paying by credit card and thats it."

To be honest I have never seen anyone say they sealed the deal totally with a CC. You might be the first. But your not IMO doing me or anyone else any favors.


And yes...I have that much credit on my card.


Enjoy your car.
geeez.....now we're getting into some greater-good socialized-society debate. So we all should not negotiate deals and terms because one guy might do better than the next guy, and then the next guy will end up paying for it?

whoa.....like I said earlier...then you guys must really HATE the thread about savings $2k off MSRP by Robert Payne ! How I Scored a Fabulous Deal from the Comfort of My Easy Chair

We'll all be paying $2k over MSRP to make up for Robert Payne?

No worries fellas.......the world will go on, even if I charge it!
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      05-14-2008, 06:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwillcutts View Post
GOLDEN RULE?! You are way off base here: We're not talking bible-study; just a simple business trasaction.

I think you've got a few too many assumptions built into what you claim to think I said to the dealer.

Credit cards are an accepted means for transactions around the world. Sorry, but that's the fact. The Dealer signs the VISA contracts, not me!

Calling me unethical for doing this seems not to pass the "fair and reasonable" test in my opinion. Business is business.

REASONABLE assumptions, as you term it, are a very SUBJECTIVE choice of words don't you think?
For sure, we all have our own definition of what REASONABLE means. That said, do you know anyone who has paid for a >$25K new car with a credit card? I, and several other posters on this thread, have not. Therefore, it certainly seems REASONABLE that the dealer negotiated the selling price with an understanding of what their final margin would be based on a cash or financed sale.

As to your comment about business being business, I may be naive, but I'd like to think that ethics and business aren't mutually exclusive topics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwillcutts View Post
Again, are you a dealer or something? Why this great concern for me "screwing" someone for paying with my VISA for a car !? I thought this was an owner's website.
I'm a software engineer. I am not a dealer, nor a salesman, nor in any way associated with car sales at all. I'm here because I'm a fan of the 1 series (I'll probably be buying almost the same config that you've ordered, as a matter of fact). Whatever I may think of your stance on this credit card issue, I can't deny that you have good taste in cars. :biggrin:
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      05-14-2008, 06:37 PM   #53
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I also agree that what you're doing is pretty shady. I've read all about your Visa agreements etc., but for me it boils down to karma.

Regardless of all your facts and arguments, you know you're pulling a fast one on them, and if you pull it off you'll be walking out of there thinking how you forced them to eat that cost. They'll think you screwed them and you'll think the same. Sounds like bad karma to me.

Honestly there are many many ways that I think this is wrong, but I don't have the time and I know it wouldn't matter to you.

But there are people that don't agree with this, and I know they understand what I'm trying to say as well.

But we all can agree on one thing, congratulations on your purchase!! I pick mine this Saturday!
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      05-14-2008, 06:46 PM   #54
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Let me ask one question...

on your contract what is circled under form of payment...

cash...credit ....or lease
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      05-14-2008, 06:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzone View Post
How does your form of payment make ANY difference? Using BMW Financial, VISA, CASH, or CHECK doesn't change the deal. Period.
IMO that depends on the contract
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      05-14-2008, 06:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedavis34 View Post
I also agree that what you're doing is pretty shady. I've read all about your Visa agreements etc., but for me it boils down to karma.

Regardless of all your facts and arguments, you know you're pulling a fast one on them, and if you pull it off you'll be walking out of there thinking how you forced them to eat that cost. They'll think you screwed them and you'll think the same. Sounds like bad karma to me.

Honestly there are many many ways that I think this is wrong, but I don't have the time and I know it wouldn't matter to you.

But there are people that don't agree with this, and I know they understand what I'm trying to say as well.

But we all can agree on one thing, congratulations on your purchase!! I pick mine this Saturday!

Hold on a second here! The dealership made a deal with Visa and now they're trying to ignore that agreement. This guy isn't doing anything but holding them to a contract they agreed to! I think some of you don't understand what a contract is all about.
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      05-14-2008, 06:57 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WannaBe View Post
Dan, IMO the difference is that retail stores with set pricing like Best Buy factor in CC fees when setting their retail prices. Car dealers almost certainly do not.

.

They better factor it in if they're going to stick that little "We gladly accept VISA" sticker on their door! This guy is simply holding them to payment terms they agreed to in a LEGALLY BINDING contract. :iono:
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      05-14-2008, 07:00 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Hold on a second here! The dealership made a deal with Visa and now they're trying to ignore that agreement. This guy isn't doing anything but holding them to a contract they agreed to! I think some of you don't understand what a contract is all about.

yes...but it depends whats in that contract...supposing they have circled cash deal...

can he put it on a CC?
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      05-14-2008, 07:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
They better factor it in if they're going to stick that little "We gladly accept VISA" sticker on their door! This guy is simply holding them to payment terms they agreed to in a LEGALLY BINDING contract. :iono:
what do you know about the contract and also what state it is written in...

i have read in some states you cannot purchase a car with a credit card,,,not sure if its true or which ones if it is...
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      05-14-2008, 07:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwheat986 View Post
what do you know about the contract and also what state it is written in...

I've personally had to sign a couple. I know exactly what's in them, and they state that it's "all or nothing". In other words if you're going to accept Visa as a form of payment, you have to accept it in any amount, and for any item. I used to regularly run CCs for well over $20k, and have even had to take one for $80k. It's part of the deal if you're going to allow people to pay with a card.

If his state doesn't allow it, I doubt very seriously that Visa would be backing him on it.
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      05-14-2008, 07:27 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I've personally had to sign a couple. I know exactly what's in them, and they state that it's "all or nothing". In other words if you're going to accept Visa as a form of payment, you have to accept it in any amount, and for any item. I used to regularly run CCs for well over $20k, and have even had to take one for $80k. It's part of the deal if you're going to allow people to pay with a card.

If his state doesn't allow it, I doubt very seriously that Visa would be backing him on it.

my apologies...i was not specific enough...what do we know about the OP's signed contract...

in every car purchase I have ever made there was a section where you selected your form of payment...

i would like to know if the OP had agreed to cash or credit when he signed the credit? If he did indeed select credit there is usually a statement that additional forms must be completed to complete the contract.
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      05-14-2008, 07:44 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedavis34 View Post
I also agree that what you're doing is pretty shady. I've read all about your Visa agreements etc., but for me it boils down to karma.

Regardless of all your facts and arguments, you know you're pulling a fast one on them, and if you pull it off you'll be walking out of there thinking how you forced them to eat that cost. They'll think you screwed them and you'll think the same. Sounds like bad karma to me.

Honestly there are many many ways that I think this is wrong, but I don't have the time and I know it wouldn't matter to you.

But there are people that don't agree with this, and I know they understand what I'm trying to say as well.

But we all can agree on one thing, congratulations on your purchase!! I pick mine this Saturday!
How are they any different than any other business. If you went anywhere else and bought 40K worth of their products, they wouldn't turn down your credit card, they woudl gladly accept it. Why should the dealership be any different? They make most of their money on service and parts, so by being difficult about method of payment most customers would not return to the same dealer for any service or parts needs. You want to retain your clients as it is much cheaper to keep clients then gain new ones.
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      05-14-2008, 07:44 PM   #63
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      05-14-2008, 07:46 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwheat986 View Post
my apologies...i was not specific enough...what do we know about the OP's signed contract...

in every car purchase I have ever made there was a section where you selected your form of payment...

i would like to know if the OP had agreed to cash or credit when he signed the credit? If he did indeed select credit there is usually a statement that additional forms must be completed to complete the contract.
I would take cash to mean upfront payment, meaning the dealer is not supplying financing, not that you will be paying in cash.
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      05-14-2008, 07:53 PM   #65
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And this thread will be irrelevant if he walks in, plops down his card, and they say ok!

"It's not impossible, just highly improbable."
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      05-14-2008, 08:05 PM   #66
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I would take cash to mean upfront payment, meaning the dealer is not supplying financing, not that you will be paying in cash.
yes...could be...

but it doesn't have to mean credit card...
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