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      01-19-2010, 06:57 PM   #111
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Since it is currently undergoing development all I can answer is that it will have it's own character. It will have advantages as well as disadvantages from the M3 because no M car is the same.
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      01-19-2010, 06:57 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
but why can't the M1 be faster than the M3, like the M3 is faster than the M5?
Around a track maybe, but that's solely because the M5 is more of an estate barnburner and not a track star, it weighs over 4000 lbs remember.
The M3 is not faster than the M5 in a straight line.
The M3 traps in the 111-115 mph depending on tranny and options.
The M5 traps in the 115-118 mph range depending on tranny and options.
Sure if you get a e92 M3 with CF roof and basic options with DSG you may be able to run with a fully loaded M5, but even then, I think the M3 would have a hard time above 120 mph.
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      01-19-2010, 06:59 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
Good info Scott, but how much torque are we talking about here? Additionally, is the handling gonna on par with the M3 or has it been compromised, like some have stated, to avoid it upstaging the M3? If the aim is about "driver focus" then it should be as good as it can be without any compromises.

It's going to have a "overboost" feature like the new Z4si. That is what he's hinting at. I think its great they're slapping another turbo onto the N55.
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      01-19-2010, 07:00 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Since it is currently undergoing development all I can answer is that it will have it's own character. It will have advantages as well as disadvantages from the M3 because no M car is the same.

Thanks, Scott




Cool response, Forbes-- I was trying to get him to disclose numbers, but I can wait
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      01-19-2010, 07:05 PM   #115
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Scott - will this thing have a cage like the M3 GT3 or whatever?
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      01-19-2010, 07:06 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
Good info Scott, but how much torque are we talking about here? Additionally, is the handling gonna on par with the M3 or has it been compromised, like some have stated, to avoid it upstaging the M3? If the aim is "driver focus" then it should be as good as it can be without any compromises.
Agree, and it needs to go on a diet too. Lightweight wheels and non-runflats will get you well under 1500kg on a 135i. Those should be a given, seeing it is an M car. The M Variable diff is a few additional pounds. Hit the roof with CF and lighten the sound deadening, and you've lost another 50kg. This car can very realistically be under 1400kg, if BMW wants to.

Make us WANT this car.
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      01-19-2010, 07:09 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
Around a track maybe, but that's solely because the M5 is more of an estate barnburner and not a track star, it weighs over 4000 lbs remember.
The M3 is not faster than the M5 in a straight line.
The M3 traps in the 111-115 mph depending on tranny and options.
The M5 traps in the 115-118 mph range depending on tranny and options.
Sure if you get a e92 M3 with CF roof and basic options with DSG you may be able to run with a fully loaded M5, but even then, I think the M3 would have a hard time above 120 mph.
I was not talking about straight line. We all know that the 135i is (ridiculously cheaply) capable of beating both in that category, and I'm uninterested in that figure.
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      01-19-2010, 07:09 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Since it is currently undergoing development all I can answer is that it will have it's own character. It will have advantages as well as disadvantages from the M3 because no M car is the same.
I agree, the M3 has long been the "track star" M model.
Don't think BMW wants to sacrifice that status on the base model M.
The M1 will do great on the track no doubt, but will probably be "funner" to drive in day to day public road scenarios where the M3's absence of low end torque makes it feel a bit weak below 4000 rpms and in need of revving too much (often the sole complaint of past and current M3's).
The M1 will nicely fill the gap between the day to day driving torque and fun of the 135i and the track abilities of the M3. But being an M, it will most certainly lean more towards the abilities of the M3 than the 135i. You won't sacrifice daily driveability or track abilities, if they are making it as I'm speculating it's target to be.

As for torque, if it has 345 hp, I'm guessing torque will be within 10-15 ft-lbs of that figure too. It has to be high enough above the 300 ft-lbs range to separate it from the 135i's regular N55, but not too much to make it difficult to keep the rear end in line.
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      01-19-2010, 07:15 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
I was not talking about straight line. We all know that the 135i is (ridiculously cheaply) capable of beating both in that category, and I'm uninterested in that figure.
Yes, being one of the first handful of people in the world to have a tuned N54 engine, I am well aware of it's capabilities when tuned.
But I thought we were talking about M3 vs M5 here?
You mentioned the M3 being faster than the M5. I just pointed out (in clarification) that it is not in fact faster in a straight line, and I would of thought all would know the M5 wasn't intended to be the track star the M3 is (not saying the M5 is a slouch on a track), but it was not the primary intent of the M5 like the M3, as Scott pointed out, each M has a different focus.
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      01-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Agree, and it needs to go on a diet too. Lightweight wheels and non-runflats will get you well under 1500kg on a 135i. Those should be a given, seeing it is an M car. The M Variable diff is a few additional pounds. Hit the roof with CF and lighten the sound deadening, and you've lost another 50kg. This car can very realistically be under 1400kg, if BMW wants to.

Make us WANT this car.
Larry, I totally agree with you on getting rid of some of the sound deadening. Some modern cars are so quiet that you sometimes feel isolated from the driving experience and can't even enjoy the sonorous sound of the exhaust or engine. Hence, I drive with my window slightly cracked, even during winter, so I can enjoy the sound of the engine/ exhaust.
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      01-19-2010, 07:17 PM   #121
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Oh btw, Scott, if they are slapping a second turbo on the N55 and making changes to the N55 in that way, I'd have to imagine that this M1 engine is not going to be called the N55, but have another name correct? Maybe M55 or S55?
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      01-19-2010, 07:19 PM   #122
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Thanks SCOTT26. Appreciate the info...
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      01-19-2010, 08:34 PM   #123
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I wonder how many units will be produced? I barely see any 135i's as it is in my large metropolitan city but I do see at least one E9x M3 everyday. Joy is indulgence especially in exclusivity!
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      01-19-2010, 08:45 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
Yes, being one of the first handful of people in the world to have a tuned N54 engine, I am well aware of it's capabilities when tuned.
But I thought we were talking about M3 vs M5 here?
You mentioned the M3 being faster than the M5. I just pointed out (in clarification) that it is not in fact faster in a straight line, and I would of thought all would know the M5 wasn't intended to be the track star the M3 is (not saying the M5 is a slouch on a track), but it was not the primary intent of the M5 like the M3, as Scott pointed out, each M has a different focus.
True. Unless you think that the M3 is going to be poised or be looked at as more of a super GT car, the M1 and M3 have enormous overlap and are direct competitors to each other. BMW has to introduce some compromise to the M1, unless they want to cannibalize the M3 sales.

Maybe this is harder for me to rationalize, as I do many driving events, and think of the M3 and M1 in those terms....
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      01-20-2010, 03:36 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Scott appreciate the info as always. It's kind of sad that I'm thinking that 3306lbs and 340HP (345PS) just in not enticing enough for me. I understand that there are much more to the package, but why can't the M1 be faster than the M3, like the M3 is faster than the M5?

This is a blatant compromise, unless the N55 is just not as flexible as the N54 (which is highly doubtful). What else was compromised, if so?

It's MARKETING.. BMW will rate it like that, so those who have M3's won't have hurt egos.
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      01-20-2010, 03:46 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The Purpose behind the M1 is to not concentrate on power solely but produce a car which is more entertaining and more thrilling to drive than cars that will probably cost twice as much or three times and so on.

M1 is purely about driver focus and torque. Two elements that are going to make this a very exciting car. It's a car that is going to be full of characteristics, It is also going to be a car that will be realistically affordable.
Such a concept will be successful in the largest M market , North America.

It also within BMW's drive to produce exciting cars on compact platforms.
The recession told us that consumers were willing to downsize for the right product and we seen that in the 1er. Although there is the trend for "downsizing" in the US it is down to Gas prices which are driving US consumers to smaller compact models. However the added concern amongst everybody is if Gas prices fall to normal levels then American consumers will go back to larger cars. With the M3 overlooking the M1's shoulder it will be positioned not to outclass that car in terms of power.
Which is why it will be in the mid three hundreds.

If there is a car that will define M "The Next chapter" for a new generation it will have to be the M1 , it is really going to bring a lot of new customers to the BMW brand. It will be the equivalent of a must have laptop , tv , ipod etc
An Indulgement you just have to get.


Can I sig that^^... lol

I remember driving my buddies 1987 M3 on some twisty Ann Arbor road one morning, coming home from a party. The road was wet with fog and I simple tossed that car threw intersection sideways and even pulled a "power-slide" park job that was effortless. Coincidentally, that morning was brought up many times, over the years. (3 in the car).

It wasn't my driving skill, it was the balance of that //M...!

That^ = PHUN!
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      01-20-2010, 07:59 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numb3rs View Post
It's MARKETING.. BMW will rate it like that, so those who have M3's won't have hurt egos.
Me thinks that most M3 owners will still call the car ugly and crosseyed, just they do the rest of the 1ers. I'm okay with that too.
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      01-20-2010, 08:20 AM   #128
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Looks like carbon hood.
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      01-20-2010, 09:13 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Me thinks that most M3 owners will still call the car ugly and crosseyed, just they do the rest of the 1ers. I'm okay with that too.
+1 Agreed!

I'm sure many of the current 3er lovers are the same bunch who initially thought the e9x 3 looked like a Pontiac.

Go figure!
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      01-20-2010, 09:49 AM   #130
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I'm not gonna lie, it looks like it has the X5/6 M's front bumper and that reminds me of a snow plow.
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      01-20-2010, 11:11 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I don't think it's very likely the wheels and tires will be lighter, considering that they're getting larger and wider (by a considerable amount it seems).
The M3 18" wheels are lighter than the 135i 18" wheels.
The M3 optional 19" (forged) wheels are lighter than the 18" M3 wheels.

At the very least, I think the M1 will have a forged (19"?) optional wheel.
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      01-20-2010, 11:35 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Me thinks that most M3 owners will still call the car ugly and crosseyed, just they do the rest of the 1ers.
I'm not one of them - if this thing really fulfills its many promises, I'll trade my M3 in for one in a heartbeat. Don't really care about the power numbers, looks etc. However, there cannot be any excuses made for handling.

I've been waiting a long time for an M car like this, I'm so excited by the possibilities of this car - and the possibility of another Euro Delivery - I just hope it will not be disappointing.


Another point when discussing torque is to know what type of transmission it will have. If it's based on the current 135i 6sp, then it cannot handle more than 322 ft-lbs I believe. The DCT can go up to 369 if not mistaken (same as the overboost feature in the 335is).

Or they could base it off some other manual tranny - for example on the E39/E60 6sp, which is rated higher.


(Mine would have to be a 6sp manual).
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