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      04-20-2015, 04:30 PM   #1
Dackelone
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Exclamation Nürburgring crash... think it can't happen to you?

Let's see if you guys can spot the "event"... I'll leave it at that for now, then scroll down further AND discuss!


















Ok, so how many of you saw THAT coming? I didn't. Just some food for thought for you guys who want to do a Tourists Fahrt on the 'Ring.

Our friends over at BtG wrote up a great piece on this crash. I think Dale summed it up well. Take a look over at Dale's website...


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      04-20-2015, 04:46 PM   #2
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Trying to pass on a corner...

Plenty of opportunity to get by a slower driver like that safely.
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      04-20-2015, 04:50 PM   #3
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This is exactly why I'm very selective with run groups and track days... mixing experienced people with inexperienced folks is a recipe for disaster. Mixing skill levels is a bad idea IMO. Bad.

Experienced guy is thinking... "I have room to pass, he's far right, there's no way he'll move over" ... WRONG.

Inexperienced guy is thinking... "holy shit, holy shit, holy shit... off my line... moving over... it must be safe" ... WRONG.
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      04-20-2015, 05:02 PM   #4
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I did see that coming.... or at least.... I'm not surprised.

I'm not a hardcore track junkie but I have been on the ring and it is very scary imho.
Especially when it's crowded. All sorts of people drive there...
I have on tape in a similar short corner that a car just in front of me is forced on the grass for the same reason; you can hear the small rocks hit my bumper windscreen etc....
And then there is the risk of cars loosing oil, coolant etc

I'm not scared of what I do to my car, but scared of what others might do...
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      04-20-2015, 05:05 PM   #5
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Def saw it coming, but I ride motorcycles so I assume everyone is about to make a bonehead maneuver.
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      04-20-2015, 05:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Def saw it coming, but I ride motorcycles so I assume everyone is about to make a bonehead maneuver.
That's a great philosophy... more people should drive that way.
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      04-20-2015, 05:25 PM   #7
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That said, I would posit that there were two bonehead maneuvers that contributed to that crash. No way I would have ducked on the inside of that car with the apex approaching and the front car angled the way it was. 50:50 chance it was going to turn in and I don't like them odds.
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      04-20-2015, 06:10 PM   #8
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That is very poor traffic management, and anticipation.
The passing driver did not set up his pass properly and went for a divebomb pass on the inside of a corner!.
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      04-20-2015, 06:11 PM   #9
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I would hardly say that the GTR was the "more experienced" driver. Passing on the inside after the braking zone as the driver in front is diving at the apex is asking for trouble. Although, the Clio is a "RentRaceCar"...
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      04-20-2015, 07:12 PM   #10
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Agree
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      04-20-2015, 07:18 PM   #11
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i think the GTR should have exercised patience and just waited until the next straight (but i think he was too focused on staying with the P-cars)

i think the Clio should have checked mirrors (or have situational awareness that the GTR was overtaking could be in the blind spot) and stayed on the current outside line. (and not try to take the "racing" line)

i'm a noob in HPDE, but a concept that was drilled into me (when being passed) is to stay on line and BE PREDICTABLE. not only directionally but also with speed. unless it's getting to the end of a passing zone, or an area of elevation, i usually don't even lift. i stay the same speed and let the passer motor on by.

i can recall a few times where i was given the point by as i closed for the pass, then to see brake lights come on abruptly.
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      04-20-2015, 09:02 PM   #12
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a good reason why in the USA we have mandatory point by's instead of open passing in most groups. And when there is open passing, 95% of people still give them.
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      04-20-2015, 09:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@tpc View Post
a good reason why in the USA we have mandatory point by's instead of open passing in most groups. And when there is open passing, 95% of people still give them.
Open passing is fun for sure and love it but usually only take iffy passes on someone I know or wait for safer zone to do so if unsure of driver.
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      04-23-2015, 10:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal
This is exactly why I'm very selective with run groups and track days... mixing experienced people with inexperienced folks is a recipe for disaster. Mixing skill levels is a bad idea IMO. Bad.

Experienced guy is thinking... "I have room to pass, he's far right, there's no way he'll move over" ... WRONG.

Inexperienced guy is thinking... "holy shit, holy shit, holy shit... off my line... moving over... it must be safe" ... WRONG.
Rookie move, anyone who has taken any racing course should know the car in front has the racing line and if you want to pass you must go around, not squeeze in between. I don't think that is a pass a experienced driver would have done in that situation.
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      04-23-2015, 02:26 PM   #15
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Yep agreed.

He started to pass on the corner on the inside. At some point the guy was coming over on the racing line. And he did.

Having said that, after the first few corners at the Ring, I'm not entirely sure of the racing line until I recognise the odd corner or final few corners of the lap. At that was after 1.5 days on a trackday!

I much prefer a trackday - usually people don't pass on corners or in the braking zone and its less crowded. Also less frantic since people know they have all day - not just a couple of Ring tickets.
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      04-23-2015, 02:30 PM   #16
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I always assume people are going to stay on the line. It's always been preached by every driver and club I have ran with.

That being said, I don't think I would ever go out in a run group that had such a large disparity between cars/skill.
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      04-23-2015, 03:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mernardi View Post
I always assume people are going to stay on the line. It's always been preached by every driver and club I have ran with.

That being said, I don't think I would ever go out in a run group that had such a large disparity between cars/skill.
The problem is... ANYONE can drive on the 'Ring. Just pay your 27 euros and away you go! No skill level nor tech inspection needed. Not even a helmet. This is a public one way road(race track) with a "toll". You only need the car to be legally registered in Germany with insurance papers.


See my "other" 'Ring thread on the weird types of cars and driver's that show up to drive the 'Ring...

Strangest "things" on the Nürburgring...
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1117094



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      04-23-2015, 03:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AW335TT View Post
Rookie move, anyone who has taken any racing course should know the car in front has the racing line and if you want to pass you must go around, not squeeze in between. I don't think that is a pass a experienced driver would have done in that situation.
Even looking at the first turn in the video you can see how wide those Porsche's take the turn to leave room for the Honda while sir douche a lot in the GTR almost damn near swipes it.
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      04-23-2015, 03:25 PM   #19
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It is always the overtaking one's responsibility to find a line to safely overtake the car in the front. The one in front does not even have to move out of the line unless the car in front receives a blue flag in a racing event. The one in the back is definitely at fault as his car is not even in front when the collision happened.
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      04-23-2015, 03:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower
It is always the overtaking one's responsibility to find a line to safely overtake the car in the front. The one in front does not even have to move out of the line unless the car in front receives a blue flag in a racing event. The one in the back is definitely at fault as his car is not even in front when the collision happened.
Even if the car in front receives a blue flag, they stay exactly where they are.. It is the passing cars responsibility to go around. A blue flag tells the car in front to let off the gas to make the pass easier.
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      04-23-2015, 04:09 PM   #21
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My take way....Clio's on their roof slide f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Clio driver might have missed the camera car hidden behind the Porsche, or just had very poor situational awareness because he was just trying to stay on the track.

Either way, camera car took the risk, gambled and lost with a pass.

No doubt camera car thought Clio was giving way by going WAY outside before turn in, but that's just what newb drivers do, they use all the track even when the speeds don't require much at all.
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      04-23-2015, 05:42 PM   #22
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Mixed feeling.

Can this happen to me? of course it can.

1. Since this is not a race/qualifying nor the driver lapped the slower car, front car has all the rights to have that lane.

2. This is why I do not go on a massive circuit running with other vehicles. Who knows the front vehicle was on a cool down laps, and onboard vehicle was on a hot laps? There is absolute no communication of any sort at these kind of circuit.
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