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      08-30-2016, 02:53 PM   #23
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I really liked the kid, but after this and a few other incidents, I honestly start to dislike him at this point.
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      08-30-2016, 03:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
This. That's why I think that Vettel was the main reason for that accident.
In the replay video we could clearly see what Max was facing and if he couldnt see that he didn't have any room at the apex, then its a sign of immaturity and a poor judgment.
If Vet gave Kimi some room, then I think he could have still avoided the contact with MadMAX and we wouldn't be talking about it
Kimi is one of the cleanest drivers I have seen in F1
Poooooor Kimi. At least there is always ice cream. Is it Gelato in their garages?
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      08-30-2016, 03:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Black and white for me. Max should not have gone for that move as it puts him at risk, however, 90% of corner incidents are caused by the wide man turning in on the apex when other car(s) are there. Vettel was absurd, he took the same line as qualifying rather than knowing there were gonna be cars on the apex! he hit Kimi first ffs.
It was Vettels fault period.
Its amazing to watch how much his driving skills have degraded in the past 2 or 3 years...
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      08-30-2016, 03:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
It was Vettels fault period.
Its amazing to watch how much his driving skills have degraded in the past 2 or 3 years...
Agree, But think also that about 98% of the drivers have less HP, torque and traction than the mercs...
And that they need to take more risks , and more risks means reckless in F1 terms .
Max was forced to do this to stand against the Mercs and the reds ..
Don't forget this was his home race and most of the eyes from the 85,000 spectators were looking for him only .
So the pressure was really big , when we think he's only 18 we need to have even more repect for Max .

Lewis Hamilton is 31
Kimi Räikkönen is 36
Max Verstappen is only 18 and drove already in F1 when he was only 17 , but won already a F1 race and several podiums .
Who did this before in the F1 history ?
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      08-30-2016, 04:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Agree, But think also that about 98% of the drivers have less HP, torque and traction than the mercs...
And that they need to take more risks , and more risks means reckless in F1 terms .
Max was forced to do this to stand against the Mercs and the reds ..
Don't forget this was his home race and most of the eyes from the 85,000 spectators were looking for him only .
So the pressure was really big , when we think he's only 18 we need to have even more repect for Max .

Lewis Hamilton is 31
Kimi Räikkönen is 36
Max Verstappen is only 18 and drove already in F1 when he was only 17 , but won already a F1 race and several podiums .
Who did this before in the F1 history ?
Well, more pressure to win or stand on the podium because its your home race DOES NOT justify to force things and take unnecessary risks IMO.
Let me remind you, they are not driving spec miatas.
Blocking Kimi when he was going at full speed could have been deadly...
He will not earn more respect if he continues to drive like this, I guarantee it.
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      08-30-2016, 04:19 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Max was forced to do this to stand against the Mercs and the reds ..

...

So the pressure was really big , when we think he's only 18 we need to have even more repect for Max .
So it's gone from "Max did nothing wrong," to "Max can't handle the pressure, he's only a little child, and when the going gets tough it's OK to endanger the lives of the other drivers because he's only a little baby and doesn't know any better." Got it.

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Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Well, more pressure to win or stand on the podium because its your home race DOES NOT justify to force things and take unnecessary risks IMO.
Let me remind you, they are not driving spec miatas.
Blocking Kimi when he was going at full speed could have been deadly...
He will not earn more respect if he continues to drive like this, I guarantee it.
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      08-30-2016, 04:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Well, more pressure to win or stand on the podium because its your home race DOES NOT justify to force things and take unnecessary risks IMO.
Let me remind you, they are not driving spec miatas.
Blocking Kimi when he was going at full speed could have been deadly...
He will not earn more respect if he continues to drive like this, I guarantee it.
Let's talk about pressure ...

What have we seen in Spain from the Mercs ? While Max won the race and while they knew they had the best car anyway .
Was this pressure ? Reckless ? Risks ? Or just ego ?
This while they are teammates and the worse case scenario could been also the end ... and while they knew that one of them won the race anyway
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      08-30-2016, 04:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoyasaxa View Post
So it's gone from "Max did nothing wrong," to "Max can't handle the pressure, he's only a little child, and when the going gets tough it's OK to endanger the lives of the other drivers because he's only a little baby and doesn't know any better." Got it.



QFT
Ohhhhh, C'mon that's really BS !
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      08-30-2016, 04:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Let's talk about pressure ...

What have we seen in Spain from the Mercs ? While Max won the race and while they knew they had the best car anyway .
Was this pressure ? Reckless ? Risks ? Or just ego ?
This while they are teammates and the worse case scenario could been also the end ... and while they knew that one of them won the race anyway
Nobody said Nico wouldn't happily kill ol' Hammie given the opportunity
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      08-30-2016, 04:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523 View Post
Nobody said Nico wouldn't happily kill ol' Hammie given the opportunity
I did say it in another thread lol.
Those two cant stand each other. Nico is not a good person from what I see.
But its a subject for a different thread
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      08-30-2016, 04:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoyasaxa
Also, it appeared that during the red flag Christian Horner was trying to tell him that Vettel had no room. It was hard to hear, but it did sound like Horner was almost scolding Max. Anyone catch that?

Max's moves on Kimmy were out of bounds too. Kid is obnoxious. Just like his crash at Monaco. Little kid is dangerous and keeps crossing the line. He's a brat.

/rant
He actually said Kimi had no room because of Vettel.
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      08-30-2016, 05:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
He will not earn more respect if he continues to drive like this, I guarantee it.
You write this as if that is of any importance. but in fact this doesnt matter at all.
They race to get maximum results. they only need respect from teams and sponsors to ensure their income and next years seat. And that means foremost results, and maybe consistency, but respect from other drivers plays no part.
Racing has only 1 goal. and that is to win. Respect from other drivers doesnt result in anything, there is no 'you know what, he's such a nice and respected guy, I think I'll let him pass' scenario.
Thats why professional drivers absolutely dont care about respect from other drivers. If that's in your nature, you wont make it anywhere near professional level racing, let alone F1. Because if earning respect means not going the full 100% for your own results, you'll never win at top level.

as for the crash, I see 3 drivers in 1 corner who all 3 thought they could get away with it or that 1 would back down. Guess all 3 were wrong...
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      08-30-2016, 08:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You write this as if that is of any importance. but in fact this doesnt matter at all.
They race to get maximum results. they only need respect from teams and sponsors to ensure their income and next years seat. And that means foremost results, and maybe consistency, but respect from other drivers plays no part.
Racing has only 1 goal. and that is to win. Respect from other drivers doesnt result in anything, there is no 'you know what, he's such a nice and respected guy, I think I'll let him pass' scenario.
Thats why professional drivers absolutely dont care about respect from other drivers. If that's in your nature, you wont make it anywhere near professional level racing, let alone F1. Because if earning respect means not going the full 100% for your own results, you'll never win at top level.

as for the crash, I see 3 drivers in 1 corner who all 3 thought they could get away with it or that 1 would back down. Guess all 3 were wrong...
They race to get maximum results. Everybody knows that. But there are unwritten rules in racing that should never be crossed.
That block on Kimi at over 300kph was not only irresponsible, but very dangerous to his colleague.
If someone less experienced than Kimi was there, he could have lost control, and losing control at that speed could be deadly.
I will repeat again, if he continues doing that, forget respect, he will be fired by his own team.
As for the crash, you are blaming all 3 drivers for that accident?
It was Kimis corner and that's it. Other two drivers made a mistake, as simple as that
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      08-30-2016, 08:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You write this as if that is of any importance. but in fact this doesnt matter at all.
They race to get maximum results. they only need respect from teams and sponsors to ensure their income and next years seat. And that means foremost results, and maybe consistency, but respect from other drivers plays no part.
Racing has only 1 goal. and that is to win. Respect from other drivers doesnt result in anything, there is no 'you know what, he's such a nice and respected guy, I think I'll let him pass' scenario.
Thats why professional drivers absolutely dont care about respect from other drivers. If that's in your nature, you wont make it anywhere near professional level racing, let alone F1. Because if earning respect means not going the full 100% for your own results, you'll never win at top level.

as for the crash, I see 3 drivers in 1 corner who all 3 thought they could get away with it or that 1 would back down. Guess all 3 were wrong...
I don't think team/sponsor respect can be separated from driver respect. Look at Maldonado...teams and sponsors weren't lining up to sign him once Venesuela oil dropped out. Why - he's crazy and crashes a lot.

Opposite is true for Hulk or Alonso. How many times is Fernando mentioned as the best driver on the grid - even though he has been rounding out the top 10 this year? As for Nico...Hulk is constantly linked with top tier teams when the "crazy season" gets going. You don't get your name mentioned with Ferrari, MB, and Red Bull by picking up a few 7th places for Force India.
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      08-30-2016, 08:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
...if he continues doing that, forget respect, he will be fired by his own team.
It's not like there isn't a precedent for this. Just look at how Verstappen got his ride; Kvyat proved to be a danger and got demoted.
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      08-30-2016, 10:01 PM   #38
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I think the first turn was Vettel's fault but don't agree with many of the double moves that Max has been doing to block cars behind him but as he pointed out there are plenty of times when people face penalties for driving infractions and the officials don't see it as enough of a problem to do anything to him.

So, blocking cars behind him keeps cars from passing him, officials do nothing about it and based on this he will probably keep doing it.

Schumacher was hardly free and clear of controversy, neither has Hamilton been and "I can't stand Verstappen" seems really strong when Max is 18 and I don't think has even faced grid penalties for what he has done.
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      08-30-2016, 10:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70
I think the first turn was Vettel's fault but don't agree with many of the double moves that Max has been doing to block cars behind him but as he pointed out there are plenty of times when people face penalties for driving infractions and the officials don't see it as enough of a problem to do anything to him.

So, blocking cars behind him keeps cars from passing him, officials do nothing about it and based on this he will probably keep doing it.

Schumacher was hardly free and clear of controversy, neither has Hamilton been and "I can't stand Verstappen" seems really strong when Max is 18 and I don't think has even faced grid penalties for what he has done.
He hasn't faced penalties because he's bringing attention to the sport.
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      08-30-2016, 10:58 PM   #40
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I wouldn't criticize Max that much on Turn 1 incident. It is quite "common" for Spa race start at La Source. Although Max was a bit lucky not making himself the second Grosjean by causing a huge collision at that corner at race start.

However, Verstappan was walking a very fine line on his defense maneuvers. He was being criticized in Hungary defending Kimi (again). This time was straight aggressive "blocking" (in Indy car terms), he simply "reacts" to Kimi's path with a significant speed differential. This is like you driving down a freeway 85-90 mph, and some idiot came to your lane driving 65 mph without signal and only a few feed in front of you.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/08/3...ngerous-moves/

Above gave some suggestions that FIA can study further laying down some solid rules on differentiating "defense" and "blocking". In this case, Kimi could've in contact with Max's rear wheel and fly like Webber in Valencia 2010.

I think at this point, RBR should sit down and have a long talk with Max. Encouraging him doing what he did in Spain, that was simply great defending, knowing the track and his car's capability. But Hungary and Spa, that's a no no in driving and overtaking etiquette.

Once he gets more mature, he will be a great driver and definitely a world champion.
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      08-31-2016, 12:16 AM   #41
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Waiting for people to start the Maldonado memes for Verstappen.
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      08-31-2016, 01:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
They race to get maximum results. Everybody knows that. But there are unwritten rules in racing that should never be crossed.
Luckily there is a very experienced competition management/referees present who are much more experienced than all of us together on this forum who can penalize drivers.
If no penalty was given, apparently it was allowed.
They know about the unwritten rules and they know about its relevance (or lack of)

I think people use the age argument a bit too easily, which in itself is a fallacy.

we'll see if he gets fired by his team.... I think they care more about results, so if he can provide them in future races....
Lets re-evaluate that argument in the future to see who's right. only time will tell.
I'm sure that rbr also knows that results and taking risks are very much intertwined. Especially if the competition has a faster car.
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Last edited by GuidoK; 08-31-2016 at 01:56 AM..
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      08-31-2016, 01:52 AM   #43
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He was acting like a spoilt brat at times, but we have to remember he is still a teenager who has a lot of maturing to do on and off track. Hopefully this will happen fast before he causes a nasty accident.
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      08-31-2016, 08:43 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
It was Vettels fault period.
Its amazing to watch how much his driving skills have degraded in the past 2 or 3 years...
Bwaaaahhhhhaaaahhhaaaahh!!!

Yes, last season, when he scored almost twice the points as his teammate, and nearly outscored one of the Mercedes for 2nd in the championship, he was certainly displaying degraded skills.

Just say you hate Vettel and be done with it. You don't need to make up crap.
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