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      07-20-2019, 04:01 PM   #45
SteveinArizona
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The senior citizen discount doesn't start until 5 you whipper snapper!
Wrong. It ends at 5. They are in bed by 6 (I am 74 but resist these roles). And don't forget that they need time for bingo before falling asleep.
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      07-20-2019, 06:04 PM   #46
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Wrong. It ends at 5. They are in bed by 6 (I am 74 but resist these roles). And don't forget that they need time for bingo before falling asleep.
Don't let the old man in!! Only 55 so no senior citizen discounts for me... yet.
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      07-20-2019, 06:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
Look at the issue from a glass half-full perspective.....

I rest my case.....

https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/de...gets-arrested/

Quote:
Deputies: Florida carjacker can’t drive stick shift, gets arrested

by: WESH
Posted: Jul 18, 2019 / 05:08 AM EDT
Updated: Jul 18, 2019 / 01:26 PM EDT

ORLANDO, Fla. (WESH) – A carjacking attempt was thwarted Tuesday when the would-be thief was unable to drive the stick shift vehicle he tried to steal, deputies said.

Officials with the Orange County Sheriff’s Office said Jaelyn Alexander, 25, tried to carjack an elderly man at the intersection of East Colonial Drive and Dean Road a little before noon.

He quickly realized he couldn’t drive the manual transmission car that he’d gotten into, so deputies said he stole another car and took off.

Deputies said they spotted Alexander a short time later and he was taken into custody.

Alexander is charged with carjacking, battery on a victim over 65 and grand theft.
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      07-20-2019, 06:25 PM   #48
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It's pretty simple. There are WAY too many people in this world. Too many people means too much traffic which means people will gravitate towards terrible automatics. We need some serious natural disasters to clean out some of these Camry drivers. I'd love to get it down to about a million people world wide. Who's with me?
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      07-20-2019, 07:10 PM   #49
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Old now and still shifting....

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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Wrong. It ends at 5. They are in bed by 6 (I am 74 but resist these roles). And don't forget that they need time for bingo before falling asleep.
67 this month....took the Red Roadster out at 530 am today in picture-perfect Great Pacific Northwest weatherl (50F)....nothing better.
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      07-20-2019, 07:27 PM   #50
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I’m just glad I was able to get one final 6spd off the manufacturing line before they’re pretty much completely eliminated that I could comfortably afford.

If I had the $$ I would get a V10 Audi R8 with a manual and keep it forever and then I wouldn’t give a damn if my DD had an auto or not lol.
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      07-20-2019, 07:43 PM   #51
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I’m just glad I was able to get one final 6spd off the manufacturing line before they’re pretty much completely eliminated that I could comfortably afford.

If I had the $$ I would get a V10 Audi R8 with a manual and keep it forever and then I wouldn’t give a damn if my DD had an auto or not lol.
v12 vantage for me. but you got the right thinking man. sexy car, stick, who cares how fast it is.

it really is nuts how the reliability of FI has made everything snippy on the road.

turbo used to be such a tuner part less than 10 years.

that thing have twin turbo???? VTEC??
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      07-20-2019, 07:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
v12 vantage for me. but you got the right thinking man. sexy car, stick, who cares how fast it is.

it really is nuts how the reliability of FI has made everything snippy on the road.

turbo used to be such a tuner part less than 10 years.

that thing have twin turbo???? VTEC??
Yeah haha. I had a 99’ integra GSR 5spd that I worked back in the day. Oh the good ole’ days
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      07-20-2019, 08:09 PM   #53
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I friend of mine just bought herself a 57th b-day present, 2015 Cayman with S wheels. Beautiful car. Black over black. You have to love anything with a flat-6 in it. Anyway, it does have PDK. First time I've been in a PDK car. She loves how it rips off shifts. I thought it was neat, but it would lose its luster with me in about a week.
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      07-20-2019, 10:36 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
I work with computers for a living. Why the heck would I want to drive one? This is one reason why I still have a weekend race car in my collection with a 4-speed manual, carburetor, and breaker point ignition.....
You must be the only techie who feels this way.

Having lived in Seattle for many years, the tech nerds scoff at the idea of anything mechanical.
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      07-21-2019, 06:12 AM   #55
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It's a really bad time to be a motoring enthusiast, IMO.

Cars these days are made for people impressed by numbers and statistics. The amount of real drivers who actually want to improve and learn the fine skills of motoring have dwindled along with engineers making challenging cars for people to drive.

It's a sad day when everything is electronically controlled, numb, and dull.

You get people buying silly 600hp SUVs and mega fast electric cars and bragging about how "fast" they are; yet they are literally doing 0 work to make it happen. The driver is NOT a part of the equation.

The best days of cars and motoring are behind us, sadly.

I have no desire for any cars on sale at the moment; instead I find myself looking at older cars from the 70s and 80s as aspirational.
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      07-21-2019, 06:17 AM   #56
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"what's a manual?"
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      07-21-2019, 07:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Tech: auto transmissions have superseded standard transmissions in performance (numbers-wise) and fuel economy.

Human psychology: it is human nature to crave convenience. Autos are just easier to live with especially with our increasingly metros. I can't imagine driving a manual daily here in SoCal.

Cost: when not enough people desire a stick shift then automakers can't justify spending all the extra millions on R&D and production.

Culture: the world has become increasingly technology-laden. People, especially younger generations, are far more passionate about the newest phones and social media than cars. In the past a car was your ticket to freedom, but now with smartphones kids can communicate with their friends from home. A car is no longer a necessity to have "fun." Tech is where the money is now, not driving dynamics. Just look at the latest 3-series commercials showcasing a bunch of useless technology vs. a commercial from the E90 era.
This societal lack of passion for the automobile = a lesser demand for stick shifts, communicative steering, stiff suspensions, etc. People want the "image" of a cool sporty car without the actual "sportiness."

This same logic applies to the shitty numb electric steering in modern BMWs and to a lesser degree, Porsches.

Definitely these reasons. Laziness I would add as well
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      07-21-2019, 11:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
You must be the only techie who feels this way.

Having lived in Seattle for many years, the tech nerds scoff at the idea of anything mechanical.
After nearly 35 years in the IT field, I will be first to tell everyone that you need to get away from tech on your personal time. One of my co-workers (only 10 years in the field) rebuilds antique mechanical clock movements for a hobby. Sadly, like most others from his generation, he cannot drive a manual transmission.

I went to take a licensing test a few years ago, and the rules said that you could bring a basic non-scientific calculator or a slide rule to the exam. The proctor asked to check everyone's calculator on the way into the testing room, and said that I was the only person to ever show up with a slide rule (which I used to get a perfect test score).....
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      07-21-2019, 12:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
It's a really bad time to be a motoring enthusiast, IMO.

Cars these days are made for people impressed by numbers and statistics. The amount of real drivers who actually want to improve and learn the fine skills of motoring have dwindled along with engineers making challenging cars for people to drive.

It's a sad day when everything is electronically controlled, numb, and dull.

You get people buying silly 600hp SUVs and mega fast electric cars and bragging about how "fast" they are; yet they are literally doing 0 work to make it happen. The driver is NOT a part of the equation.

The best days of cars and motoring are behind us, sadly.

I have no desire for any cars on sale at the moment; instead I find myself looking at older cars from the 70s and 80s as aspirational.
100% agree but they're not completely dead yet. Now's the time to grab your 'dead man's' car to keep and enjoy until....well, you're dead. Even if it's a reach financially, it's our last chance (at least to buy new)
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      07-21-2019, 01:32 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
It's a really bad time to be a motoring enthusiast, IMO.

Cars these days are made for people impressed by numbers and statistics. The amount of real drivers who actually want to improve and learn the fine skills of motoring have dwindled along with engineers making challenging cars for people to drive.

It's a sad day when everything is electronically controlled, numb, and dull.

You get people buying silly 600hp SUVs and mega fast electric cars and bragging about how "fast" they are; yet they are literally doing 0 work to make it happen. The driver is NOT a part of the equation.

The best days of cars and motoring are behind us, sadly.

I have no desire for any cars on sale at the moment; instead I find myself looking at older cars from the 70s and 80s as aspirational.
100% agree but they're not completely dead yet. Now's the time to grab your 'dead man's' car to keep and enjoy until....well, you're dead. Even if it's a reach financially, it's our last chance (at least to buy new)
You may be right. I grabbed my ultimate "modern" car and am set. Let the Carmageddon start!

Really is unfortunate how people aren't interested in driving anymore.
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      07-21-2019, 02:00 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
It's a really bad time to be a motoring enthusiast, IMO.

Cars these days are made for people impressed by numbers and statistics. The amount of real drivers who actually want to improve and learn the fine skills of motoring have dwindled along with engineers making challenging cars for people to drive.

It's a sad day when everything is electronically controlled, numb, and dull.

You get people buying silly 600hp SUVs and mega fast electric cars and bragging about how "fast" they are; yet they are literally doing 0 work to make it happen. The driver is NOT a part of the equation.

The best days of cars and motoring are behind us, sadly.

I have no desire for any cars on sale at the moment; instead I find myself looking at older cars from the 70s and 80s as aspirational.
Immediacy bias is a real thing and breeds comments like this. There is only a very small handful of Japanese and German cars that stand out mountains of pure trash of 70's and 80's automobiles. The late 70's through mid-80's in particular is probably the all time low point of the history of the automobile. I owned cars from that era and I'm simply being objective rather than overly emotional as I do not fondly remember any of the jerky 3-4 speed automatics, rowing through a bucket of bolts manual transmissions, erratic idling, stalling throttle body fuel injection, V8 engines that had the fuel economy of high powered engine with none of the power, turbocharged engines that had such bad turbo lag that a cyclist could take you off the line, K-cars, etc. Don't even get me started about how unreliable vehicles were over this time period. Cars are so much better today it's laughable to suggest anything otherwise. There was a brief point late 80's early 90's where technology exploded into great advancements in engine and chassis dynamics without the burden of safety regulations forcing increased weight. That made for a very good period (maybe the best) for pure automobiles but once driver and passenger airbags were mandated the industry went conservative and safety focussed which has led us to where we are today. Yes cars are heavy but thanks to advancements in suspension and engine technology most don't feel that heavy on the road in normal conditions. Cars today get us all from A to B faster, safer, more reliably than ever before. Sure the 1% of drivers that lived for track days and weekends may not appreciate the added weight and electronics doing some of the work for them but as a person that's old enough to have driven cars going back to the 70's I can say with confidence that save for some great cars in the late 80's/early 90's in particular you have missed absolutely nothing by not driving cars from previous decades.
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      07-21-2019, 02:34 PM   #62
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Some general observations ... Cars are more accessible than ever before. There are many many people that are not comfortable driving and then those that think of it as a waste of time. This view is based on talking to folks and observing behavior of drivers on the road. For example, the other day I saw a guy holding a phone in the left hand and doughnut in the right hand on the hwy driving 45 in a 55 mph. I pull up next to him and he did not realize that I was there next to him for at least 2 mins. There weren't cars behind me so I thought let me see if he is observant.

Most cars these days are nothing more but appliances, like a dishwasher. Many people buy them because they have to go from point A to point B but would prefer not to drive at all.

Enthusiasts are very small % and can't buy enough manuals to support OEM decision to develop and certify manual cars.

Again, cheap cars are like legos built by robots and last only a few years.

The hand built high end models were/are not accessible to many and usually folks that have means to buy them aren't enthusiasts.
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      07-21-2019, 03:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
It's a really bad time to be a motoring enthusiast, IMO.

Cars these days are made for people impressed by numbers and statistics. The amount of real drivers who actually want to improve and learn the fine skills of motoring have dwindled along with engineers making challenging cars for people to drive.

It's a sad day when everything is electronically controlled, numb, and dull.

You get people buying silly 600hp SUVs and mega fast electric cars and bragging about how "fast" they are; yet they are literally doing 0 work to make it happen. The driver is NOT a part of the equation.

The best days of cars and motoring are behind us, sadly.

I have no desire for any cars on sale at the moment; instead I find myself looking at older cars from the 70s and 80s as aspirational.
Immediacy bias is a real thing and breeds comments like this. There is only a very small handful of Japanese and German cars that stand out mountains of pure trash of 70's and 80's automobiles. The late 70's through mid-80's in particular is probably the all time low point of the history of the automobile. I owned cars from that era and I'm simply being objective rather than overly emotional as I do not fondly remember any of the jerky 3-4 speed automatics, rowing through a bucket of bolts manual transmissions, erratic idling, stalling throttle body fuel injection, V8 engines that had the fuel economy of high powered engine with none of the power, turbocharged engines that had such bad turbo lag that a cyclist could take you off the line, K-cars, etc. Don't even get me started about how unreliable vehicles were over this time period. Cars are so much better today it's laughable to suggest anything otherwise. There was a brief point late 80's early 90's where technology exploded into great advancements in engine and chassis dynamics without the burden of safety regulations forcing increased weight. That made for a very good period (maybe the best) for pure automobiles but once driver and passenger airbags were mandated the industry went conservative and safety focussed which has led us to where we are today. Yes cars are heavy but thanks to advancements in suspension and engine technology most don't feel that heavy on the road in normal conditions. Cars today get us all from A to B faster, safer, more reliably than ever before. Sure the 1% of drivers that lived for track days and weekends may not appreciate the added weight and electronics doing some of the work for them but as a person that's old enough to have driven cars going back to the 70's I can say with confidence that save for some great cars in the late 80's/early 90's in particular you have missed absolutely nothing by not driving cars from previous decades.
You clearly missed the point.

I don't aspire to own a 1977 Toyota with a shitty Automatic gearbox.

That being said I'm not interested in an underwhelming, overly electronic 2020 Supra with a shitty automatic gearbox either.

Statistics don't make cars better or worse; the experience of driving them does. Engagement does for many of us. Cars of today may be technically superior but far less engaging...significantly less engaging. When i speak about my aspirational cars from the 60s and 70s i'm talking about cars so engaging there is nothing available in current times with that level of engagement such as the Alpine A110 1600s, Simca Rallye 3, Alfa Romeo GTA, Lancia Fulvia HF, BMW 2002 Turbo....
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      07-21-2019, 03:53 PM   #64
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You clearly missed the point.

I don't aspire to own a 1977 Toyota with a shitty Automatic gearbox.

That being said I'm not interested in an underwhelming, overly electronic 2020 Supra with a shitty automatic gearbox either.

Statistics don't make cars better or worse; the experience of driving them does. Engagement does for many of us. Cars of today may be technically superior but far less engaging...significantly less engaging. When i speak about my aspirational cars from the 60s and 70s i'm talking about cars so engaging there is nothing available in current times with that level of engagement such as the Alpine A110 1600s, Simca Rallye 3, Alfa Romeo GTA, Lancia Fulvia HF, BMW 2002 Turbo....
The 8HP ZF may not be a manual but its far from shitty...

Anyway, the last car with a manual will most likely be the Miata. Should be an extremely hot seller in about 10 years. lol
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      07-21-2019, 03:57 PM   #65
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The 8HP ZF may not be a manual but its far from shitty...

Anyway, the last car with a manual will most likely be the Miata. Should be an extremely hot seller in about 10 years. lol
zzzzzzz. have driven many cars now with the ZF 8 speed and found them all to be gussied up descendants of the old torque converter auto gearbox. hate it.

i'm a manual person through and through BUT give me a Dual Clutch gearbox ANY day of the week over these dull ZF gearboxes. The only reason ZF gearboxes have taken off is because they are significantly cheaper to manufacture and require minimal integration into a car compared to the sensitive dual clutch gearboxes which are significantly more expensive, more intensive to calibrate with different cars, and require more maintenance followed by customer complaints.

at the end of the day these are just ordinary torque converter automatic gearboxes with fancy software to make them 'fast'. doesn't change how bad they feel to drive, IMO.


LONG LIVE the Miata!! glad it's still simple and fun.
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      07-21-2019, 04:35 PM   #66
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If the ZF8 is a great automatic, I'm glad I still only buy manuals. To be fair my experience with it was a horrible F30, so maybe there are better applications.
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