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      06-24-2007, 09:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brookside View Post
You sum it up well.
What sort of haunts me, maybe because ( probably) I'm older than some of you, is the how BMW's image has changed over the years from being a car that was financially out-of-reach for many to a manufacturer that tries very hard to be many things to a diverse customer base with as little dilution as possible to the integrity of the brand.

I think a lot of us applaud BMW for a return to it's roots (about time!). Maybe BMW will start to cut some of the fat off of the 3-er too.
My E92 could definately stand to lose a few lbs, that's for sure. :biggrin: I think it is in the weight range of a 5 series as few as 10 years ago--not sure what E that is, but you get the drift. The cars are becoming bigger and heavier--which some people don't need. So for years you either had to live with it or get a Z roadster, which is a great car, but not as practical as the 3. Thus enters the 1 which is the size of an E36, roughly, right? That is right up my alley--I am almost 30, but no kids and no dog, so no need for a lot in the back.

I loved my dad's E46--and getting a 3 has been my dream since he brought his home in 2000--it is the standard that others have tried to hit for many years now. It just seems BMW has had to "play" in arenas that used to not matter in such a car--areas where the Japanese excel--and that is luxury. Those things add to the length and weight of the car--which pulls BMW from its roots. Just check out the new M3--they had to drop a damn V8 in the thing in order to get the performance expected out of the M. I thought that was sad, to tell you the truth. The I6 has been a BMW benchmark for years, and it seems to be somewhat on the way out.

And as long as the top end of the 1 is in the mid 30's, you won't see THAT many badge whores--even though there are plenty of them out there buying 3's now. In that range, you are still looking at a mid $400 per month lease payment--which is quite high when you can get a Cobalt for $119 a month.

Regardless--If they do the tailights right, I will be on board for the 1er right at the beginning. :biggrin:
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      06-24-2007, 10:01 PM   #46
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Beyond a doubt, in my mind, the inevitable will occur. At the same time, I too agree with the "who cares who has a Bimmer?" sentiment. If you like the car, buy it, deal with it. I've never chose to like a car using the reasoning or prevailing opinion of others. People give me crap for being a BMW enthusiast simply because they see it's an expensive car and not something you buy out of basic necessity, but what else could you expect from people that don't know diddly squat about cars? I don't like BMW's because they're expensive, I like them because I believe they're some of the best cars ever made(and so, so much more). :headbang:
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      06-24-2007, 10:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Deutsch View Post
I don't like BMW's because they're expensive, I like them because I believe they're some of the best cars ever made(and so, so much more). :headbang:
I concur--it is, without a doubt, a unique feeling to drive one. Once you get used to it, nothing else feels good. It really doesn't. When my dad's E46 lease was up, his company wanted him to get an American car (since it was his company car), so he ended up with a CTS that was actually more expensive. He claims it was the biggest piece of shit he ever had--but I'm sure it was because that BMW "wow" factor is simply not there in other car makers. Don't get me wrong--other makers do things better than BMW--but I have yet to drive anything under a $60K Porsche that gave me the same level of driving satisfaction. :biggrin:
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      06-24-2007, 10:44 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Don't get me wrong--other makers do things better than BMW--but I have yet to drive anything under a $60K Porsche that gave me the same level of driving satisfaction. :biggrin:
At a reasonably sane price... I hear yah! Your Dad should move to Europe(don't know how you and yours feel about that), over there it seems that BMW's have a slightly more less pretentious image than over here stateside- Sorry, but Americans are extremely ignorant in this sense, which is also part of the reason we only get the more expensive models. If you follow me.
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      06-25-2007, 12:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Deutsch View Post
At a reasonably sane price... I hear yah! Your Dad should move to Europe(don't know how you and yours feel about that), over there it seems that BMW's have a slightly more less pretentious image than over here stateside- Sorry, but Americans are extremely ignorant in this sense, which is also part of the reason we only get the more expensive models. If you follow me.
He was, and still is, super pissed. :biggrin:

Yeah, it really made no sense at all--I mean the cars were nearly identical in price, so who cares, right? I guess there is something to be said for supporting the American economy by purchasing our own products, but that image is much more blurred than it used to be.

Since no one is buying my car, however, I get whatever the hell I want...
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      06-25-2007, 01:31 AM   #50
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I can think of one reason for being concerned who else winds up buying and driving the 1 if you're a prospective buyer - the impact on your insurance rates. When I was looking at going to a MX-5 PRHT from my current ride I was expecting my agent to quote a much higher rate (after all, a new MX-5 is worth about $20K CAD more than my current ride, more powerful, and somewhat faster). Nope - the rate would actually drop by several hundred a year, as my current vehicle tends to be bought by younger males who drive more aggressively and thus get into more accidents - the median age of a MX-5 driver by contrast is probably mid-40's judging from the participants on miata.net.
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      06-25-2007, 08:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Devon K View Post
I can think of one reason for being concerned who else winds up buying and driving the 1 if you're a prospective buyer - the impact on your insurance rates. When I was looking at going to a MX-5 PRHT from my current ride I was expecting my agent to quote a much higher rate (after all, a new MX-5 is worth about $20K CAD more than my current ride, more powerful, and somewhat faster). Nope - the rate would actually drop by several hundred a year, as my current vehicle tends to be bought by younger males who drive more aggressively and thus get into more accidents - the median age of a MX-5 driver by contrast is probably mid-40's judging from the participants on miata.net.

Couple things that I've been thinking about in terms of pricing....and beyond that, financing. One is that BMW has slowly crept towards being volume brand while still retaining the perception of being an exclusive marque. And in the last 10 years or so BMW buyers have benefitted by having more dealers to negotiate with, in fact even using the word "negotiate" was an anomaly not so long ago....you took the the deal that was on offer or you didn't get the car.

The other thing is BMW financing has become much more customer friendly as the company has grown. I'm not saying that BMW's are less expensive-
but the terms of financing, whether leasing or buying are much more competetive with mainstream market rates that are out there.

The only real hurdle I see financially is at the 1-ers introduction into the N/A market. Will BMW decide to be adventurous and go a populist route in terms of brokering the car into the market?
Or will the early adopters of the 1-er take a real hit in the pocket? I suspect the latter while BMW collates early sales info into a more accurate market strategy.

Bottomline, the car's msrp is of course a factor, but the financing, initial deals on hand, lease/purchase policies, determing residual rates, will be the real dramas upon introduction.
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      06-25-2007, 09:03 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brookside View Post

Couple things that I've been thinking about in terms of pricing....and beyond that, financing. One is that BMW has slowly crept towards being volume brand while still retaining the perception of being an exclusive marque. And in the last 10 years or so BMW buyers have benefitted by having more dealers to negotiate with, in fact even using the word "negotiate" was an anomaly not so long ago....you took the the deal that was on offer or you didn't get the car.

The other thing is BMW financing has become much more customer friendly as the company has grown. I'm not saying that BMW's are less expensive-
but the terms of financing, whether leasing or buying are much more competetive with mainstream market rates that are out there.

The only real hurdle I see financially is at the 1-ers introduction into the N/A market. Will BMW decide to be adventurous and go a populist route in terms of brokering the car into the market?
Or will the early adopters of the 1-er take a real hit in the pocket? I suspect the latter while BMW collates early sales info into a more accurate market strategy.

Bottomline, the car's msrp is of course a factor, but the financing, initial deals on hand, lease/purchase policies, determing residual rates, will be the real dramas upon introduction.
Its funny that you should mention financing--I was wondering about this the other day. I have actually had TWO E92's--and the financing experience was quite different between the two.

I got my first one in October of last year--and it was promptly totaled the day after the Super Bowl, Feb. 5th. So when I ordered my current one, I was very surprised to see that the programs offered by BMW were infact MUCH better than they had been in Aug. 06 when I was ordering the first time. The residual did not change--but the money factor was much lower the second time around. Those 6 months really made a difference, as I was able to get my current ride with the ZSP and wheel/tire protection added for a lower monthly payment than I had on my first E92.

Thus, I am guessing, at least on the 135i, that they will not be very "aggressive" towards potential buyers. I'm sure the residual will be in the 58-61% range, which is where you find most 3er coupes on a 3 year lease--but the money factor will probably not be as low as all of us that plan to lease would like. We'll see...
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      06-25-2007, 12:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutsch View Post
Beyond a doubt, in my mind, the inevitable will occur. At the same time, I too agree with the "who cares who has a Bimmer?" sentiment. If you like the car, buy it, deal with it. I've never chose to like a car using the reasoning or prevailing opinion of others. People give me crap for being a BMW enthusiast simply because they see it's an expensive car and not something you buy out of basic necessity, but what else could you expect from people that don't know diddly squat about cars? I don't like BMW's because they're expensive, I like them because I believe they're some of the best cars ever made(and so, so much more). :headbang:
A few years ago, when I was making plans to sell my E36 M3 to get a MINI Cooper S, I was asked by several well-meaning friends, "What will people think if you sell your BMW and get a MINI?" I responded that they were right to think that car I drive says a lot about me. Specifically, it says that this is the car I want to drive. That's all it says, but it's a lot.

If/when I sell the MINI to get a 135, it will say the same thing the MINI has been saying: This is the car I want to drive. If it can't say that, I don't want it.

I realize that this "message" won't be heard by everyone who sees me in my new 135 (or old '05 MINI). That honestly doesn't matter to me. The message is from my car to me. Whether other people get the same message is of little interest to me. I can't say I completely understand why it's important what other people think about the cars we drive. I know lots of people give weight to that in their buying decisions. And, I guess if everything else were equal, I'd pick the car that projected the more desirable "image". But, how the car drives (and whether it has something special in the driving experience) is so much more important as to make the image thing insignificant.
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      06-25-2007, 12:55 PM   #54
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A few years ago, when I was making plans to sell my E36 M3 to get a MINI Cooper S, I was asked by several well-meaning friends, "What will people think if you sell your BMW and get a MINI?" I responded that they were right to think that car I drive says a lot about me. Specifically, it says that this is the car I want to drive. That's all it says, but it's a lot.

If/when I sell the MINI to get a 135, it will say the same thing the MINI has been saying: This is the car I want to drive. If it can't say that, I don't want it.

I realize that this "message" won't be heard by everyone who sees me in my new 135 (or old '05 MINI). That honestly doesn't matter to me. The message is from my car to me. Whether other people get the same message is of little interest to me. I can't say I completely understand why it's important what other people think about the cars we drive. I know lots of people give weight to that in their buying decisions. And, I guess if everything else were equal, I'd pick the car that projected the more desirable "image". But, how the car drives (and whether it has something special in the driving experience) is so much more important as to make the image thing insignificant.
I know exactly what you mean--I have already heard people saying, in re: to the 1er coupe, "that would be a rockin nice car for my WIFE" and I am like WTF???? I don't think it looks like a "girl" car at all--but people say that about the Z in some circles as well. Unfortunately, it does play a part--it is up to the individual to determine what extent that part is....

Seeing it in person is going to tell me a lot....
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      06-25-2007, 02:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I know exactly what you mean--I have already heard people saying, in re: to the 1er coupe, "that would be a rockin nice car for my WIFE" and I am like WTF???? I don't think it looks like a "girl" car at all--but people say that about the Z in some circles as well. Unfortunately, it does play a part--it is up to the individual to determine what extent that part is....

Seeing it in person is going to tell me a lot....
Let those idiots drive their Escalades and Mustangs (not that there is anything wrong with either of those cars... and not that driving one makes one an idiot :smile: )!!!! Some people are interested in brute force, mulit-screen in-car entertainment systems and other priorities. Good for them...

I'm interested in a car that is high-quality, has leading-edge technology and provides me with an unforgetable driving experience. I don't want it to be big, and it only needs to make the minimum of concessions to everyday practicality (four seats and a trunk).

The 1er is going to be good. I anticipate it will satisfy my criteria and will probably do it head and shoulders above its closest competition (Audi, VW, Mercedes). Whether it's made by Honda or BMW is of little significance, except that I know from experience that the BMW standard (design, quality, innovation) is one met by few car companies and it's a standard I have aspired to.

This car will be fun, fast, high-quality and have innovative design and technology. It will probably be iconic in terms of its impact on the market (similar to the Miata and Mini).

People that don't get what the Miata and Mini are all about probably won't get what the 1er is all about (they are all about slightly different things, but, arguably, are all inspired by the same level of uncompromising passion and design excellence). Good for us. There'll be more 1ers on the lot to choose from........

:drinking:
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      06-25-2007, 02:39 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by spudwest View Post
Let those idiots drive their Escalades and Mustangs (not that there is anything wrong with either of those cars... and not that driving one makes one an idiot :smile: )!!!! Some people are interested in brute force, mulit-screen in-car entertainment systems and other priorities. Good for them...

I'm interested in a car that is high-quality, has leading-edge technology and provides me with an unforgetable driving experience. I don't want it to be big, and it only needs to make the minimum of concessions to everyday practicality (four seats and a trunk).

The 1er is going to be good. I anticipate it will satisfy my criteria and will probably do it head and shoulders above its closest competition (Audi, VW, Mercedes). Whether it's made by Honda or BMW is of little significance, except that I know from experience that the BMW standard (design, quality, innovation) is one met by few car companies and it's a standard I have aspired to.

This car will be fun, fast, high-quality and have innovative design and technology. It will probably be iconic in terms of its impact on the market (similar to the Miata and Mini).

People that don't get what the Miata and Mini are all about probably won't get what the 1er is all about (they are all about slightly different things, but, arguably, are all inspired by the same level of uncompromising passion and design excellence). Good for us. There'll be more 1ers on the lot to choose from........

:drinking:
I wish I knew more about the way BMW handled Mini in N/A...I have a funny feeling BMW will duplicate a lot of the introductory strategy used on it for the 1-er.
Or, if they screwed some things up, perhaps this launch will benefit from what they learned.

& 'bout time for some more leaks...eh?
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      06-25-2007, 07:15 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brookside View Post
I wish I knew more about the way BMW handled Mini in N/A...I have a funny feeling BMW will duplicate a lot of the introductory strategy used on it for the 1-er.
That would be extremely difficult to pull off as the MINI already had an established name and brand. All BMW had to do is play the retro card: show them some pictures of a center-mounted speedo and funky styling bits and then talk about the "glory" years when cars were about driving and so forth.

You couldnt do the same for the 1er for one very good reason: it isnt retro. BMW could try to link the connection between the 1er and the 2002 and that almost certainly will happen. But the main strategy for BMW should be to sell the typical BMW hallmarks: great handling, good power, nice interior + relatively cheap price and small size for the 1er. I dont think that many people will buy the 2002 connection. BMW tried to play that card with the introduction of the E90 (did anyone here watch the "Icon" video?) but it really didnt work well. At the end of the day what did work was selling the established brand identities.

The price point for this car will be very interesting because on the one hand you have the argument that if BMW prices it too low that it would snag sales from the E92, but on other hand, if they price it too high it could suffer total failure. If the price difference between a 1er Coupe and an E90 ends up being less than 5,000 dollars, I think that most people would decide to pay a little bit more for similar, yet slightly worse, performance but more room.

Brookside brought up the financing programs and that is what will really determine the 1er Coupe's price. The lease programs on the E90 right now are exceptional. With such a good program being offered for the bigger, more practical car, the 1er will have to be significantly cheaper for the casual car buyer to buy into the 1er's smaller space.

Im hoping that a softly equipped 135i can be had for around 32,000-33,000. If the price goes up to 35,000 or 36,000, I think many people would rather buy into a base E92.
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      06-25-2007, 08:15 PM   #58
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Im hoping that a softly equipped 135i can be had for around 32,000-33,000. If the price goes up to 35,000 or 36,000, I think many people would rather buy into a base E92.
I hope so too, but my softly equipped E92 328i--Sport package, heated seats, MT--came to 38,800 (and I didn't even get metallic paint, thank God JB is free, it does look the best :biggrin: ). I am guessing the softly equipped 128i will be right under 30K and a similarly equipped 135i will be close to 34K. With a similarly equipped 335 coming in at 42-43K now, this gives you a nice linear price progression, assuming most options chosen are the same.

And the programs ARE good for the E90 right now--hell you can get a 335i sedan for $500 over invoice--something that won't happen in the E92 anytime soon. It's the hot car right now, has that total "gotta have it" association--I assume the thinking will be the same for the 1er coupe. This isn't going to be something that will be easy to afford, by any means, and the price and financing aggressiveness will mirror those ideas, I am sure.
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      06-25-2007, 10:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I hope so too, but my softly equipped E92 328i--Sport package, heated seats, MT--came to 38,800 (and I didn't even get metallic paint, thank God JB is free, it does look the best :biggrin: ).
You know, that's one thing that I find to be an absolute absurdity among "premium" cars...the surcharge for metallic paint. In the 3 series, BMW charges $475 for metallic paint, and I'm sure you'll see the same thing in the 1 series.

It's not that I can't afford $475, I will in fact get metallic paint on any car I buy. Its a principle issue, and I feel insulted, and angry for being treated like a fool and taken advantage of. Here's exactly what I mean...most non-premium cars do not charge any additional fee for metallic paint, or even pearlescent paint. A similarly greedy buisness model would be for example, a plumber charging a standard fee for service in a average neighborhood, but raising the rates in an upscale neighborhood for the exact same service. You would rightly call that buisness practice greedy and opportunistic from the plumber, and the metallic paint surcharge is equally greedy and opportunistic. Metal flake in your paint is worth about $4.75, not $475.00
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      06-26-2007, 08:10 AM   #60
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I don't disagree with you Wolf... Just wondering, though, whether the process for applying metallic paint is more complex/time-consuming than non-metallic. Still wouldn't justify the $$, but just wondering.

What I do know is that the metallic paint on mt Acura chipped and scratched if you looked at it the wrong way, whereas the metallic paint on my 328i seems more resistant (not that I test it too much). Wonder if there's somthing to that to help justify extra cost...
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      06-26-2007, 08:36 AM   #61
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As others have said, price will be dictated by the prices above and below the 1-series (3-series and Mini).

I'm sure that BMW is well aware the some people have a 30K ceiling on what they will spend on a car (me included, I don't live beyond my means), so it will be important for the 1-series to start under 30K.

I'm less interested in what the pricing will be, as I am about what the final weight for the car will be...

If BMW can get the 130i to weigh in at under 3000lbs and be priced under $30K, they'll have a winner on it hands... Enthusiasts, badge whores, daddy's little princesses, and wannabee ballers will all be in line for one
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      06-26-2007, 10:08 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spudwest View Post
I don't disagree with you Wolf... Just wondering, though, whether the process for applying metallic paint is more complex/time-consuming than non-metallic. Still wouldn't justify the $$, but just wondering.

What I do know is that the metallic paint on mt Acura chipped and scratched if you looked at it the wrong way, whereas the metallic paint on my 328i seems more resistant (not that I test it too much). Wonder if there's somthing to that to help justify extra cost...
It's still better than Porsche. With that company the same exact paint can be $800 option one year, and $3000 special option the next. For example, Lapis Blue this year is a $3000 paint job, but it had been a $800 one until last year. Cobalt Blue? Exactly the opposite. So basically they swapped the price on these two colors. Why? Probably because some analyst figured out that will make more money.

There really is no more logic to how much they charge for a certain color than the fact that they can. :mad:
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      06-26-2007, 12:07 PM   #63
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It's still better than Porsche. With that company the same exact paint can be $800 option one year, and $3000 special option the next. For example, Lapis Blue this year is a $3000 paint job, but it had been a $800 one until last year. Cobalt Blue? Exactly the opposite. So basically they swapped the price on these two colors. Why? Probably because some analyst figured out that will make more money.

There really is no more logic to how much they charge for a certain color than the fact that they can. :mad:
That's not to mention 3,000+ dollars for power seats with memory (which is not standard on nearly any of their cars; havent checked the 911 Turbo or Cayenne).

I dont know how many of saw this story a while ago:

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Po...-vehicle/2628/

Basically, Porsche makes an average profit of $28,247 on every car it sells. I couldnt convince myself to buy a Porsche after knowing that.
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      06-26-2007, 07:18 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries View Post
You know, that's one thing that I find to be an absolute absurdity among "premium" cars...the surcharge for metallic paint. In the 3 series, BMW charges $475 for metallic paint, and I'm sure you'll see the same thing in the 1 series.

It's not that I can't afford $475, I will in fact get metallic paint on any car I buy. Its a principle issue, and I feel insulted, and angry for being treated like a fool and taken advantage of. Here's exactly what I mean...most non-premium cars do not charge any additional fee for metallic paint, or even pearlescent paint. A similarly greedy buisness model would be for example, a plumber charging a standard fee for service in a average neighborhood, but raising the rates in an upscale neighborhood for the exact same service. You would rightly call that buisness practice greedy and opportunistic from the plumber, and the metallic paint surcharge is equally greedy and opportunistic. Metal flake in your paint is worth about $4.75, not $475.00
For crying out loud... buy a CPO car and be done w/ it. :wink:
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      06-26-2007, 10:31 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutsch View Post
For crying out loud... buy a CPO car and be done w/ it. :wink:
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      06-28-2007, 05:54 PM   #66
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So now that the much predicted model line up is officially confirmed, should we go back to guessing how much it will cost?

tdc was correct in his information that the 135i will come standard with M sports and 6 piston brakes, so now it seems very likely that his (very optimistic) info on pricing would turn out to be true. That is, under $35K for the 135i with M sports and brembo standard.

C&D also predicts that it will come in at $32~33K, which is in line with what tdc said. Then how much will a 128i cost? C&D predicts $27K, with the gap between the two models being $5~6K. I would believe this IF M sport and brembo was not standard on the 135i, but with those two pricy options as well as the extra 70HP, I find it hard to believe that the gap would be so small.

Think about it, you add up the sports pack to a $27K base 128i, and throw in xenon and logic 7 that will probably come standard in a 135i, and you get a $30K 128i. Which in itself is not so bad, but then there will only be $2~3K gap between that and a 135i, which has massively superior gears from powertrain to suspension to brakes. This is certainly not the case between 328i vs. 335i.

Anything's possible I guess, but if this really turns out to be the case then I just might overspend a little and get the 135i.
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