Went and drove a couple M235i's

[squidge]

Originally Posted by champignon

Thanks everyone for this thread, it has been fun to read.

There's "latest and greatest," and then there is "road feel" and the sensation of driving the sort of car that BMW made its name producing. I am personally not very interested in track times or other statistics, such as 0 to 60 times separated by tenths of a second. I also don't much care about the minutiae that separates this from that particular engine. Others will vehemently disagree.

There is a lineage of BMW small sports sedans and coupes, at least the coupes with a boxy shape like a sedan, that for me defines this brand. It started with the 1600, then the 2002, and on up through earlier iterations of the 3 series and M3s. All of them, for their time, had more than enough power, and the cars were designed from the ground up to be fun to drive. These were cars for driving purists, whether you were on a short jaunt to the grocery store, or if you went for a drive in the country. Luxury was very much secondary, although certainly by the early 90s these cars were relatively luxurious when viewed in the context of their times.

When one looks at something like an M2, which I have not driven but have seen many pictures of and read many reviews, it appears one is talking of an entirely different sort of animal. This is not a bad animal, it is not a bad car, but it is not of the lineage that I describe, with its complicated interior, electronic nannies, and electric steering (no matter how refined).

Perhaps BMW is developing a new niche for themselves. That will satisfy those looking for something new, and that is a good thing. For those seeing the old, true blue, faithful original, it is just not the same thing, and BMW will never make cars again, that really resemble, truthfully, the old ones that made their reputation, no matter what pops up in their advertising montages.

This. Exactly why I tracked down a clean 2013 128i. It's really the last of its kind.

[steeveebee]

Originally Posted by Schalldampfer1

The 240 will be really crazy with tuning. So far on a 340i with a JB4 and intake only, they dyno'ed at around 400 wheel! With DP's and e85/100 oct it should be even crazier!

Crazy numbers, no LSD. Kind of moot IMO

[tock172]

Originally Posted by steeveebee

Crazy numbers, no LSD. Kind of moot IMO

Indeed. And the M235i used to have the LSD as a factory option. Now it's a dealer option. BMW is obviously trying to push people towards the M2. An optioned-out M235i or M240i is so expensive it makes the M2 look like a bargain anyway.

[xantdieselx]

Originally Posted by tock172

Indeed. And the M235i used to have the LSD as a factory option. Now it's a dealer option. BMW is obviously trying to push people towards the M2. An optioned-out M235i or M240i is so expensive it makes the M2 look like a bargain anyway.

I call BS. It seems like everyone puts down the M235i just to justify driving their 135i. I bought my 16' M235i x-drive with an MSRP of $51,470 for 46.9k. A new M2 with an MSRP of 55k will cost you 60k with all of the dealer mark-ups.

Is the M2 15k more car than an M235i? Hell no. It's the same exact car with more power, fixed suspension and LSD.

I've owned a 135i and loved it. The M235i is a couple of steps above in ALL aspects. The 1 has way more body roll and is slower. The interior is awful and the proportions are just wrong. The 1 has better steering and better brakes that is it.

So it's realistic for people to love their cars but let's be realistic.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by tock172

Indeed. And the M235i used to have the LSD as a factory option. Now it's a dealer option. BMW is obviously trying to push people towards the M2. An optioned-out M235i or M240i is so expensive it makes the M2 look like a bargain anyway.

Only ///M cars have a LSD from the factory! For the M235i it was always a dealer or port installed option.

Dack

[champignon]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

I call BS. It seems like everyone puts down the M235i just to justify driving their 135i. I bought my 16' M235i x-drive with an MSRP of $51,470 for 46.9k. A new M2 with an MSRP of 55k will cost you 60k with all of the dealer mark-ups.

Is the M2 15k more car than an M235i? Hell no. It's the same exact car with more power, fixed suspension and LSD.

I've owned a 135i and loved it. The M235i is a couple of steps above in ALL aspects. The 1 has way more body roll and is slower. The interior is awful and the proportions are just wrong. The 1 has better steering and better brakes that is it.

So it's realistic for people to love their cars but let's be realistic.

First of all, I'm glad you like your M235i; there is no car out there that satisfies everyone, and a happy camper is a happy camper.

Saying the interior of the 1-Series is "awful" is a 100% subjective comment on your part, with which I totally disagree, but then I don't consider the 1-Series variants to be true luxury cars. The interior of newer BMWs (of which I have had a number as loaners the last year, given the fact that I own 4 BMWs) look tacky and have the appearance of a video game to me. Steering and brakes happen to be about half the feedback that a driver gets from a responsive car. So what you are saying is that you prefer either a more luxurious car than the 1-Series was, with a dashboard full of electronics, over a somewhat more traditional BMW dash, and that chewing gum steering doesn't bother you.

To each his own :-)

[xantdieselx]

Originally Posted by champignon

First of all, I'm glad you like your M235i; there is no car out there that satisfies everyone, and a happy camper is a happy camper.

Saying the interior of the 1-Series is "awful" is a 100% subjective comment on your part, with which I totally disagree, but then I don't consider the 1-Series variants to be true luxury cars. The interior of newer BMWs (of which I have had a number as loaners the last year, given the fact that I own 4 BMWs) look tacky and have the appearance of a video game to me. Steering and brakes happen to be about half the feedback that a driver gets from a responsive car. So what you are saying is that you prefer either a more luxurious car than the 1-Series was, with a dashboard full of electronics, over a somewhat more traditional BMW dash, and that chewing gum steering doesn't bother you.

To each his own :-)

The interior is bad - my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe has a nicer interior. Better materials, softer plastics and better fir and finish. That's not subjective go look for yourself.

The M235i has better performance figures than the 135i in every aspect. Yet these boards are full of "doesn't handle like the 135i" or "135i feels faster". Look and you will struggle to find a positive review of the 135i but the M235i is universally praised.

I had one 08' 135i 6MT w the sport package as the only option. Honestly the M54 was fast but not pin you to your seat quick. I loved that car but in comparison to the M235i there is no comparison.

Put the M235i vs. 135i (or 135is) on a track and the 135i will get bested. Again not subjective just fact. The M235i has quicker 0-60, 1/4 Mile, 60-0 braking, Slalom, figure 8...if that's a "luxury car" I'll take it.

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

What a bunch of horse shit!

First BMW has never been known for great interiors. The materials are always good quality, but they aren't soft and silky to suit women or all you feminine guys. I would describe them as practical and simple without any frills. If you want fancy, buy a Caddy or Merc.

As far as performance goes, the differences between the 135i and the 235i are negligible. The 235i weights a bit more and the extra HP over the 135i makes up for it. When you get up into higher HP cars a few extra ponies don't make all that much difference:

135i: 3,400+ pounds, #s/HP 11

235i: 3,500+ pounds, #s/HP 11

The two cars have nearly identical handling characteristics with a slight advantage going to the One. A little extra body roll doesn't hurt the handling. In fact, it actually helps keep the wheel planted on the pavement. Another advantage the one has is steering feedback from the hydraulic assisted steering.

BMW redesigned the One solely due to its poor sales figures. Buyers some how equate the worth of a vehicle to its size. The One was a diminutive car compared to the monsters on the road, so in the pea brains of the typical consumer it certainly couldn't be worth the bucks BMW was asking.

The Two is bigger, fatter, and more imposing. I wonder what the sales figure look like now? I bet they have improved judging from the numbers I see on the dealer's lots.

Now there will be a 240i with 20 more HP. Why you just know you've got to have it. It just has to be at least 100% better than the One!

[tock172]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

I call BS. It seems like everyone puts down the M235i just to justify driving their 135i. I bought my 16' M235i x-drive with an MSRP of $51,470 for 46.9k. A new M2 with an MSRP of 55k will cost you 60k with all of the dealer mark-ups.

Is the M2 15k more car than an M235i? Hell no. It's the same exact car with more power, fixed suspension and LSD.

I've owned a 135i and loved it. The M235i is a couple of steps above in ALL aspects. The 1 has way more body roll and is slower. The interior is awful and the proportions are just wrong. The 1 has better steering and better brakes that is it.

So it's realistic for people to love their cars but let's be realistic.

You call BS on what? I'm not putting the M235i down. I just drove a Dinan S3 M235i all weekend and I was highly impressed - it blows my 135i away in just about all aspects. Does that make it worth the astronomical purchase price when new? The answer for me is no, but for others that will vary.

The M2 is still just about the best performance bargain out there for a new vehicle, and the dealer markup you're complaining about will not last forever. The M2 is not a limited production vehicle like the 1M. The margin between an optioned M235i or M240i and the M2 is still very, very small when you consider what you're getting.

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Only ///M cars have a LSD from the factory! For the M235i it was always a dealer or port installed option.

Dack

Either way, BMW is making the LSD option more difficult to get on the M240i. You used to be able to check a box when building one on BMWUSA.com, now the option has disappeared.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

The interior is bad - my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe has a nicer interior. Better materials, softer plastics and better fir and finish. That's not subjective go look for yourself.

The M235i has better performance figures than the 135i in every aspect. Yet these boards are full of "doesn't handle like the 135i" or "135i feels faster". Look and you will struggle to find a positive review of the 135i but the M235i is universally praised.

I had one 08' 135i 6MT w the sport package as the only option. Honestly the M54 was fast but not pin you to your seat quick. I loved that car but in comparison to the M235i there is no comparison.

Put the M235i vs. 135i (or 135is) on a track and the 135i will get bested. Again not subjective just fact. The M235i has quicker 0-60, 1/4 Mile, 60-0 braking, Slalom, figure 8...if that's a "luxury car" I'll take it.

Again, given a choice, I'd probably take the interior of my old 1993 325i purchased new, over the interiors of my current 1-Series cars, and for sure the Ones are way more luxurious than the old Three was. I'm happy with good quality leather upholstery and a clean and functional interior. If what I want is luxury, I'll go buy a Lexus or a Mercedes (or a large and much more expensive BMW).

From every review I have read, the electric steering on the M2 is inferior but tolerable, when compared to all E82/E88 One Series vehicles. The lower end 2 Series, like the M235i, has had its steering either damned with faint praise or totally trashed in the reviews as being soft, with no feedback, and little road feel. For me, that would be a 100% deal killer.

If I wanted to go out and pay full MSRP for an M235i five minutes from now, I could do so. Don't expect to find me at the dealer's lot, however.

[steeveebee]

Well, it does seem the 235i is better than the 135i in every way except for the fact that you have to interact with it to drive it

That interaction being where it falls apart

I have not tried the 235i. I did drive a 328i as the maintenance loaner, and the steering on that thing was a fatal flaw. If the 235i is similar...and I bet it is...do not want. The ZF8 was decent, but it was not the DCT in terms of response.

And "Honestly the N54 was fast but not pin you to your seat quick. I loved that car but in comparison to the M235i there is no comparison."...it's like, what 0.2 seconds?

[fcman]

Originally Posted by steeveebee

I have not tried the 235i. I did drive a 328i as the maintenance loaner, and the steering on that thing was a fatal flaw. If the 235i is similar...and I bet it is...do not want. The ZF8 was decent, but it was not the DCT in terms of response.

I just had a 328i as a loaner as well.I thought the interior quality was atrocious for $40k, it felt identical to my GF's 2013 Jetta. Lots of hollow sounding plastic, especially the door panels, while mine feel so solid. I can't imagine the 235i is any better. All things considered I found it to be almost directly comparable to the Jetta in terms of initial quality and feel (steering/engine/NVH) but nearly double the price.

[cvandenhaute]

Originally Posted by fcman

I just had a 328i as a loaner as well.I thought the interior quality was atrocious for $40k, it felt identical to my GF's 2013 Jetta. Lots of hollow sounding plastic, especially the door panels, while mine feel so solid. I can't imagine the 235i is any better. All things considered I found it to be almost directly comparable to the Jetta in terms of initial quality and feel (steering/engine/NVH) but nearly double the price.

I had the same impression after 2 days with a fully loaded 335i xdrive (sticker said North of $65k) that the dealer was nice enough to provide me. Not saying by any mean that my 128i has a better interior (but it held itself together fairly well in nearly 6 years, that and the fact I try to take care of it) but the interior of a new 2 or 3 would not be a reason sufficient for making me sell the old 1... I am sure the M235i is a great car, it just fails to impress me and make me want to trade in my current car. The M2 however (especially that compared to a M235i with premium pack, navigation and Harman Kardon the price difference is actually marginal)...

[cvandenhaute]

Originally Posted by cvandenhaute

I had the same impression after 2 days with a fully loaded 335i xdrive (sticker said North of $65k) that the dealer was nice enough to provide me. Not saying by any mean that my 128i has a better interior (but it held itself together fairly well in nearly 6 years, that and the fact I try to take care of it) but the interior of a new 2 or 3 would not be a reason sufficient for making me sell the old 1... I am sure the M235i is a great car, it just fails to impress me and make me want to trade in my current car. The M2 however (especially that compared to a M235i with premium pack, navigation and Harman Kardon the price difference is actually marginal)...

Before I get flamed down by M235i owners, I am not remotely trying to compare the performance and numbers of my 128i with its tepid 230hp to a M235i (but with the lovely delivery of the NA engine), I am just saying that I am just not enough excited to trade and raw performance is not enough in my book...

[CrazyIrishPenguin]

I'm just glad that BMW is keeping some form of the platform alive, sure the 2 series follows the trend of getting bigger and less driver engaged while adding more power with each new generation but at least you can still get a manual, RWD, enthusiast car that isn't a whale. That is what drew me to the 1 and it's a rare thing in the industry. I hope the 2 series is successful from the 228 to M2 so that they keep making cars like these at all.

On a side note I don't know that I would trade my 1 for a 2 but I think a M235 xdrive with DCT would be a great compliment daily driver next to my manual 135 once its out of cpo and it becomes more of a project car.

[Esteban]

I also hope that the 2 series does well as I think it's the next logical step up from the 1 series as a smallish, enthusiast's car. Drove the 2 series a few times and didn't love it (I'm sure I'm a little biased) but if my 135i was to get totaled, I'd probably buy a 2 series in some form If I were to stay with BMW. Never felt comfortable buying a used car and would always like to start fresh with a new car, so no used 135i for me.

One of my issues with the 2 series is the switch from hydraulic steering to electric steering (didn't like the way it felt), but found an interesting article that I wanted to share here. The cars used are 5 series vehicles with two different engines. IMO it's still an article worth reading if you haven't read it already.

Edit: this article is old and I'm sure electric steering has gotten better since it was written.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...n-test-feature

[stutum62]

I drove a 340i loaner for a couple of days. The B58 engine was pretty amazing - high-revving, responsive, felt more powerful than my 135is. Much improved gas mileage. That said, I intensely disliked the fake electric steering feel - especially in sport mode. The electric servo makes the wheel progressively harder to turn, but in a completely synthetic way. Compared to my 1, yuck. Brakes not bad, but not the direct, fantastic feel of the 1's brakes. Interior felt plasticky and somewhat gaudy, the steering wheel felt cheap.