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[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by JimD

I believe those who talk about temperature effects on traction have been reading too many tire commercials. It is a minor effect. Winter tires have to be able to not fall apart on a sunny warm winter day so they cannot have a big difference in the compound

Jim

This is a lie-ish.

Winter tires come with a warning to not be used above 50 degrees. Above 50 they don't fall apart perse but they wear like shit. I blew out my only set of summers in early September a few years back. I didn't have the cash on hand to replace them all, so I put on my winter tires. With easy driving I burned through 5/32" of tread in 2000 miles. And they were squishy and squirmy and felt like crap.

It's lime summer tires, sure you can drive with those below 40 degrees, but do you want to? And you may have not taken them out but I did.

On the stock bridgestones I couldnt get up the crown on a road from a stop light in a light snowstorm on a freshly plowed road.




I also pose this question. For those of you saying that allseasons are fine do you drive through fresh powder? Or do you wait a few hours for the plowtruck to come through? Because if it's the latter I can understand your opinions.

And snow is 40/60 tires/driver. Yeah knowing how to drive in the snow is massively important, it's one of the reasons that cocky idiots get their SUVs trapped and I go by them, but you can't play the game without the proper equipment.

Honestly this whole thread is kinda stupid at this point. Unless you've drive in Northeast winters you simply don't understand the type of snow and how much snow we get. Were in the Majors up here, and in the majors they don't let you on the field in sneakers.

:edit:

So I just talked to my dad who used to drive his 450 WHP 440 powered 72 Jensen Interceptor to killington, VT and other ski slope around the northeast.

He said it was manageable and a pain in the ass and he hated doing it and he got stuck on more than one occasion. His car is very similar to the 135 in terms of torque (Chryser V8s make huge torque down low, but then again this is a 7.6L car, it's bored and stroked)

I don't want to live that is what I'm trying to say.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Unless you've drive in Northeast winters you simply don't understand the type of snow and how much snow we get. We're in the Majors up here, and in the majors they don't let you on the field in sneakers.

Truth. Good analogy and very well said.

[KingOfJericho]

Get proper snows.

/thread

[ptack]

It looks like you're in Canada. Unless you can garage the car on snow days, you'd be taking a bigger risk trying to do much driving on anything but snow tires.
All seaons are compromise tires. They're not particularly good at anything. The only reason you would put them on a 135i is that you really don't care that much about handling and performance and/or you're too cheap to buy proper tires.

[Nifty]

One of the first things I did when I got my 1er was replace the runflats with Conti DWS tires (225/255). They preformed OK during the first winter, mostly due to the fact that the tread was deep. The second winter proved to be a bit difficult and midway through the season I ordered some dedicated snows due to a few white knuckle moments. I went with 215's all around and now I would NEVER go back to All Seasons for winter use.

I was definitely one of those people who thought that an "All Season" tire was just that - all season capable, but after I switched to a dedicated snow tire, I realized how wrong I was.

[tracer bullet]

I will also recommend dedicated snow tires. I live in MN, and I'm guessing your weather and ours in winter is pretty comparable.

I used to do all seasons, but you didn't get a great summer tire or a great winter tire either, just sort of "OK" for each. It was a nice and simple approach, but not great.

After that I spent a few years running summer and snow tires separately, and as far as driving it was greatly improved. But it was a pain in the butt to switch them out every 6 months, the trips to the shop, the cost, waiting around, and also because the wheels would get scratched, the old weights would leave crap behind, and so on.

Currently and for the last 8 years or so I have been running dedicated summer and snow tires on 2 different sets of wheels. *Perfect*. I get good tires for any weather, and i don't have to deal with the shops either. I do have to change the wheels over, but with a good jack this is well under an hour from start to finish including getting them to the correct pressures, having a beer, and putting all the tools away. Plus it's an excuse to get a nice looking set of wheels for those summer tires as well (put the snows on the stockers).

[JimD]

Trading opinions is fun but there are some test results in this article that might be worth looking at:

http://www.insideline.com/features/t...vs-summer.html

This is Michelin's summer, versus all-season, versus snow tires on a Honda Civic. Not exactly what we are talking about but still worth looking at IMHO. I was surprised at how bad the summer tires are in snow. Maybe it's a good thing I left my bimmer in the garage last time it snowed here. But I was not surprised at how similar the snow and all season tires were in the snow. The snow tires are better, but not a huge amount. The summers are much, much worse than either. They couldn't even reach 60 mph on the summer tires.

Wet and dry the summer's were better. Even in cold weather. To me that says something about the compound sensitivity to temperature. Summer tires accelerated and braked better in the winter on wet and dry than did all season or snow tires.

I'd love to see my tentative selection of ultra high performance all seasons tested similarly but I haven't seen that yet.

I cannot avoid a comment about experience because I am pretty sure some of the more vocal comments are coming from people my kids age. I drove for 15 years in Pittsburgh PA which gets its share of snow and certainly has some hills. I've also lived in Kansas City and Omaha which get snow and also ice storms which are much worse. Most of my driving in all these locations was on all seasons. I don't think I've used snow tires except in Kansas City. I've only been stuck one time in about 40 years driving and it was in a 1966 mustang with snow tires on. I could move but I was going sideways into another car so I got a tow. Most of my cars did not have stability or traction control to help. That makes it more fun or difficult depending on how you want to look at it. I remain fully convinced that I can go where I need to on all seasons - and any reasonably skilled driver can. If you want to use snows and are more confident with them, that is fine by me, but save yourself some money and don't get over confident.

Jim

[M3Newbie88]

I drive up an area that goes up hill.. then down hill... 2 years ago in Toronto we had a very mild winter but that one Monday I remember when I was driving to basketball.. I drove 1.5hrs which equaled to 10 minutes of normal driving... I decided to turn back as the traffic was to bad.. I was going up hill and wondered why the right hand side wasn't moving.. got to the next light and saw a 335i tires spinning, not moving and causing all the traffic..

I have only heard and seen people complain about BMW's in the winter.. and you know what I've seen over 70% during winter have trouble on snow (in person).. I myself did too but my car is modified and the torq really makes it hard.. If price was not a factor I do not understand why people don't get a good set of winters and a good set of summers.. unless the A/S tires are performing better I am pretty confused about all the people justifying why winters are not needed.

For those with A/S please provide a valid reason why you don't get a good set for winter and one for summer other then price.. i'd like to hear why and not that I am an amazing driver with outstanding skills on the road.. (unless you are a professional racer or live in the country with no cars). I only fear not for your lives but others...

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

I drive up an area that goes up hill.. then down hill... 2 years ago in Toronto we had a very mild winter but that one Monday I remember when I was driving to basketball.. I drove 1.5hrs which equaled to 10 minutes of normal driving... I decided to turn back as the traffic was to bad.. I was going up hill and wondered why the right hand side wasn't moving.. got to the next light and saw a 335i tires spinning, not moving and causing all the traffic..

I have only heard and seen people complain about BMW's in the winter.. and you know what I've seen over 70% during winter have trouble on snow (in person).. I myself did too but my car is modified and the torq really makes it hard.. If price was not a factor I do not understand why people don't get a good set of winters and a good set of summers.. unless the A/S tires are performing better I am pretty confused about all the people justifying why winters are not needed.

For those with A/S please provide a valid reason why you don't get a good set for winter and one for summer other then price.. i'd like to hear why and not that I am an amazing driver with outstanding skills on the road.. (unless you are a professional racer or live in the country with no cars). I only fear not for your lives but others...

There is no other reason. Cost is literally the only advantage.

[JimD]

It is not just cost, it is also space. 4 additional wheels and tires - or 5 with the spare - take up a lot of space. I have two vehicles. So if I wanted to run snow tires I would need space for 9 wheels and tires. I do not currently have it. If my son's mortgage goes through I will but I still will not get another set of wheels and tires for both vehicles.

Where I live now (SC) there are literally vehicles in the ditches every time it snows. And not just one or two. Between the place I work and the interstate I bet there are two dozen. Every time it snows. The snow here is never enough to totally cover the road. It is patchy. I hardly spin a tire. But others go off the road. So trying to make your case based upon how drivers that don't know what they are doing drive just doesn't work. I know people get in trouble in slick conditions. I just do not believe it is because they are driving on all season tires. If they had snow tires, most if not all the people in the ditch would still be in the ditch.

With all due respect, I can do without the "fear" comments. I will remind you, again, that I've driven on all seasons for a long time including decades in heavy snow areas. The only wreck I've had in the last 30 years was a young lady turning left in front of me. The pavement was wet and I could not stop in time. It was summer time. It was on all season tires but they made essentially no difference. Her car was totalled, my SUV needed $7K of work. Summer tires might have reduced the damage a little but wouldn't have prevented the wreck. If you read the article you will see that your starting and stopping distances/times are maybe 20% better with snow tires than with all seasons. That is not trivial but it is not something that cannot be overcome by just going a little slower.

If you want snow tires and have the space and money for two sets of wheels and tires then get them. It doesn't bother me. But if you argue that you have to have them or you can't get where you are going, I will not believe you. I think the data shows you can but it might take slightly longer. In reality, the traffic controls the time, at least where I have lived, so you move at the speed of the slowest car on the road and it will probably make no difference. But if it makes you more confident and/or you just think its a good idea then you should do it.

Jim

[KingOfJericho]

Bottom line is that the best tire for the summer is a dedicated summer tire and the best tire for winter/snow duties is a dedicated winter tire. Anything else is a compromise.

[ND40oz]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

There is no other reason. Cost is literally the only advantage.

I run A/S in the winter and summers in the summer, when you live in Denver it can be 70 one morning and snowing on the way home, so the A/S is the only tire that can handle the temperature range. I only need to make it home in that case before it really starts piling up.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Bottom line is that the best tire for the summer is a dedicated summer tire and the best tire for winter/snow duties is a dedicated winter tire. Anything else is a compromise.

No kidding? In that case, I'd probably just stack up a set of forged BBS's with one full set of slicks for track days, a set of PSS's for days it might rain, a set of studded snows for days it's nice and cold, and probably a set or two of any old tire just for smokey burn outs.

It's not all about cost. Not all of us are convinced that a 135i is god's gift to handling and sought a tire that suited how we felt about the car. Sort of middle of the road, a good bit of compromise in both handling and performance and stuck that tire on there. Sure, there are a few days a year that I would enjoy a PSS over the A/S, but if that were my take on this car, I'd have already sold it for a 1M or an M3 by now.

Whatever, for those that don't see any purpose to anything but the ne plus ultra of max summer tire for this car, carry on. I appreciate that those up north, including the OP would benefit from a full on set of snow tires, I don't, and I'm happy with a/s tires. I hope you all find a way to sleep at night knowing that I'm out there, enjoying all season tires on a 135i. Shudder.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

No kidding? In that case, I'd probably just stack up a set of forged BBS's with one full set of slicks for track days, a set of PSS's for days it might rain, a set of studded snows for days it's nice and cold, and probably a set or two of any old tire just for smokey burn outs.

It's not all about cost. Not all of us are convinced that a 135i is god's gift to handling and sought a tire that suited how we felt about the car. Sort of middle of the road, a good bit of compromise in both handling and performance and stuck that tire on there. Sure, there are a few days a year that I would enjoy a PSS over the A/S, but if that were my take on this car, I'd have already sold it for a 1M or an M3 by now.

Whatever, for those that don't see any purpose to anything but the ne plus ultra of max summer tire for this car, carry on. I appreciate that those up north, including the OP would benefit from a full on set of snow tires, I don't, and I'm happy with a/s tires. I hope you all find a way to sleep at night knowing that I'm out there, enjoying all season tires on a 135i. Shudder.

Ok, I'm glad we're in agreement.

A car can only perform up to the limits of its contact patch. You've chosen to limit that performance further while I, along with many others, have not.

[JimD]

This may be a nit but I bet your tires are still a compromise. There is always something newer or better or at least more trendy. So we all compromise unless we are prepared to change our tires every time something new comes out. You compromise less, at least in your opinion. I am totally OK with that and I respect your choice and ability to choose.

Jim

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I don't see the point. If I was willing to sacrifice that much performance and fun factor, I would drive a V6 Accord. Anyway, I would definitely rather own a 128i with summer and winter performance tires than a 135i with all-season tires.

That's on over statement.
I don't get the comparison either.

All my cars have had all season tires. Over all the years I've been driving I've had summer tires and winter tires. I no longer care to have to swap, and then decide when to do it only to find I'm on the wrong tire when the weather changed.
I live in the Chicago area, for reference.

All season tires are not all the same, just like not all summer tires are all the same. There are high performance all seasons, and lower performance passenger tire all seasons.

AS tires are a compromise. They don't have the ultimate grip of high po summer tires, and they don't grip in the snow like winter tires.
They are designed to give very good summer and wet conditions grip, and depending on the tire, some are better in snow than others.

I have Conti DWS all seasons on my 135i and they are every bit as good as the summer RFT's in the summer Plus, they are better in the wet than the RFT's, and there is no comparison during the other 6-9 months of the year when the RFT's are a distinct compromise in performance, cause you can't run them in cold and/or snow.

Yes, I sacrifice the last 2/10ths of ultimate grip of dedicated summer tires.
I haven't over driven these tires summer grip level so having dedicated summers won't give me anything more than what I already don't need or use.
I've also not been stuck in the winter either.

There is a benefit in safety that all seasons give that a dual dedicated set of tires can't give.
That is during the transitional months between fall and winter, and winter to spring.
I don't need to think about it or care about it as I just go on my merry way.
With a dedicated set you have to decide when to swap.
So, for those weeks of the year, you're on the wrong tires depending on the weather.

In the fall if you change too early you have to drive on winter tires that have lack luster performance on dry pavement, and they wear much quicker on dry roads, with a louder ride. If you wait you run the risk of having to drive on cold, wet, and may be snowy roads with summer tires. That's risky.

In the spring you have the same issues. If you change to summer tires too early you run the risk of trying to run summer tires in a cold, wet, and possibly snowy spring.
If you wait, the again you're running snow tires on dry pavement where the temps can get warm and you're running on loud squishy winter snow tires.

I'd say running dual sets is also a compromise.
You only get the best performance of a summer tire when it's warm and dry. You only get the best performance of a snow tire when it's very cold and snowy.

Compromise? Yes, all tire choices in general are a compromise if you live in a 4 season area.

I'm not intending in any way to say that all seasons are the best tire in any specific weather condition. But, they are the best choice so that you can drive in any weather condition.

You have to decide what tires to run based on your individual road and weather conditions.
If I lived in a hilly area that receives a lot of snow, and roads that don't get cleared often, you bet I'd be on winter/snow tires.

But, those are not the conditions in my area. It's quite flat around here with modest to moderate hills.
All seasons work great here. In my case, I use what TireRack classifies as "ultra high performance all seasons". Yes, there is such a thing.
And they are not a typical all season that one finds on a Camry or Accord.

It's great to have choices on levels of compromise.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by mattryan

Winter's coming and I'm debating whether or not to get another set of wheels and winter tires or just change my tires to all season... Is the 135 horrible in the snow?

Don't know why this is such a heated topic. You try getting up an unplowed, snow-ridden hill in Toronto in a 135i with all seasons and then tell me it was a better idea than getting winter wheels and tires. Don't even think about driving down and hitting the brakes to stop before the guy in front of you who also didn't spend for the proper tire setup...

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

I drive up an area that goes up hill.. then down hill... 2 years ago in Toronto we had a very mild winter but that one Monday I remember when I was driving to basketball.. I drove 1.5hrs which equaled to 10 minutes of normal driving... I decided to turn back as the traffic was to bad.. I was going up hill and wondered why the right hand side wasn't moving.. got to the next light and saw a 335i tires spinning, not moving and causing all the traffic..

I have only heard and seen people complain about BMW's in the winter.. and you know what I've seen over 70% during winter have trouble on snow (in person).. I myself did too but my car is modified and the torq really makes it hard.. If price was not a factor I do not understand why people don't get a good set of winters and a good set of summers.. unless the A/S tires are performing better I am pretty confused about all the people justifying why winters are not needed.

For those with A/S please provide a valid reason why you don't get a good set for winter and one for summer other then price.. i'd like to hear why and not that I am an amazing driver with outstanding skills on the road.. (unless you are a professional racer or live in the country with no cars). I only fear not for your lives but others...

Why buy a $50,000 300HP RWD car and not spend on some of the most important equipment? Trying to make up for choosing leather instead of leatherette? Or checking off that comfort access package box?

I'm surprised at how some people say this isn't the best handling car or its not as powerful as other sports cars therefore doesn't require winter tires. This car is a serious machine and deserves to be equipped seriously for conditions. Failure to do so only invites trouble.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

i have a slightly different opinion on allseasons. i've been using kumho asx allseasons every winter since 2005/2006. this includes my e46 m3 and 135i. i agree that they are neither fish nor fowl, meaning they're definitely not as good as snowtires in the snow, and they're not as good as summer tires in the dry, but with NJ winters, the vast majority of what i'm dealing with is not snow, but slushy slop and rain. the kumhos offer GREAT wet performance, quite good performance in slop, acceptable performance in small amounts of snow, and are way less disappointing than snow tires on the 75% of the winter days that are just cold/dry in my area. i have the liberty of working from home anytime there's more than a little snow, so that's not a concern for me. in short, allseasons aren't necessarily pointless... they just may not serve the interests of the majority.

Excellent.
And you did it with much less verbiage than I did.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

I like how everyone is talking about snow when no one has mentioned the effect of the lower temperatures.. hence the person in Texas will never encounter this. In Toronto there won't be many massive snow storms but once we get one they are brutal.. recent winters are mild however again once it gets cold it is friggin cold.. understand A/S tires are good to a certain temperature. Once it drops below that the grip and material of the tire does not hold up.. just think of a brick on an ice rink..

Like others have said.. get good snow tires and good summer tires.. it equals the same.. and like in Quebec snow tires are mandatory.. why endanger your life.. heck your endangering others lives.. just my 2 cents.

Man it get's COLD here, well below 0F ambient.
My all seasons have never had problem with these temps.

Modern all seasons are a pretty amazing technology.
They have to be cause they are the most used tire type in the auto industry, as the cars have to be able to run in Arizona desert to Alaska.

Many reviews I've read where wet traction on summer tires is hit and miss. High performance and up summer tires don't tend to be great in wet conditions. To me that's a negative.

[M3Newbie88]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Man it get's COLD here, well below 0F ambient.
My all seasons have never had problem with these temps.

Modern all seasons are a pretty amazing technology.
They have to be cause they are the most used tire type in the auto industry, as the cars have to be able to run in Arizona desert to Alaska.

Many reviews I've read where wet traction on summer tires is hit and miss. High performance and up summer tires don't tend to be great in wet conditions. To me that's a negative.

Well temperature is one factor (minor but still a factor).. but I guess its hard to generate a 100% accurate opinion since many do not actually live or drive in OUR roads(I say our because I live in Toronto, born here and drive here every single day).. but for someone who lives here I think my understanding of the OPs road conditions during winter may be a more accurate picture of what he is asking verse lets say another member who is from Texas.

I know the OP in person and money is not a factor nor is storage space so if those 2 things are out of the equation id like to hear the reason why one once again would not go with Winter tires vs. all season. And my I add he has summer tires already so he does not need to run these during summer and winter..

[M3Newbie88]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I didn't realize this was a contest in who has more snow or colder temps.

Chicago is not exactly known for mild winters.

It's your choice to drive the kind of car and tires you drive in your area.
But, don't come on here and make it seem as if all seasons are simply wrong or dangerous or whatever with this car in the winter, cause that type of claim is simply wrong.
There are plenty of us driving just fine with all seasons in bad winter areas and we're proof that it's easily and safely done.

I think you are right if 2 factors are to be looked at.. cost and storage but if those are not factors what is the reason for A/S? Not trying to argue or see who is right or wrong but as stated above the OP has summers already, does have storage space and I don't think money is a factor unless I am wrong... then what are the reasons to get A/S over winter tires?

Its like saying what is the point of RFTs if our cars came with spare tires? Same concept.. heck some people track using RFTs lol..

I think KingOfJericho is just saying for the best winter driving (skilled or not) winter tires would be ideal because it was MADE for that reason.. he is not hating on A/S.. I think A/S is a great solution if you don't have storage space or price is a factor..