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[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ptack

All seaons are compromise tires. They're not particularly good at anything. The only reason you would put them on a 135i is that you really don't care that much about handling and performance and/or you're too cheap to buy proper tires.

Other than all season being a compromise, your other comments are based on self righteous BS.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

Well temperature is one factor (minor but still a factor).. but I guess its hard to generate a 100% accurate opinion since many do not actually live or drive in OUR roads(I say our because I live in Toronto, born here and drive here every single day).. but for someone who lives here I think my understanding of the OPs road conditions during winter may be a more accurate picture of what he is asking verse lets say another member who is from Texas.

I know the OP in person and money is not a factor nor is storage space so if those 2 things are out of the equation id like to hear the reason why one once again would not go with Winter tires vs. all season. And my I add he has summer tires already so he does not need to run these during summer and winter..

Your area and my area are pretty much the same.
Your pretty much just east of me, your weather ain't that different.

BTW, those who feel some monetary superiority because they bought 2 sets of tires, well...can that comment be more ignorant?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

I think you are right if 2 factors are to be looked at.. cost and storage but if those are not factors what is the reason for A/S? Not trying to argue or see who is right or wrong but as stated above the OP has summers already, does have storage space and I don't think money is a factor unless I am wrong... then what are the reasons to get A/S over winter tires?

Its like saying what is the point of RFTs if our cars came with spare tires? Same concept.. heck some people track using RFTs lol..

I think KingOfJericho is just saying for the best winter driving (skilled or not) winter tires would be ideal because it was MADE for that reason.. he is not hating on A/S.. I think A/S is a great solution if you don't have storage space or price is a factor..

I can only guess that you didn't read my diatribe as you ask me questions I've clearly answered.

This next comment is not about you. Some here are being an arse and condescending on this topic, as if only their opinion is the correct one, and they'll defend their position by claiming to have more money than others.
But, when intelligent commentary is lacking, getting personal is the way out.

Since it seems you haven't understood my position on AS tires, I'll say it again. All season tires ARE a compromise. It is a compromise that works for my needs. And, in many aspects of year round driving, having one set of tires is a SAFER solution than using 2 sets of tires, for my area in which I drive.

It's not about space. For me, I have 5 acres, a 2.5 car garage, and a huge barn. It's not about money, as I have a 135i, 5 acres, 2.5 car garage, and a huge barn.

I don't have a need to spend money on that which I don't need.
If I needed winter tires, I would get them.
But I don't, so I won't.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I also pose this question. For those of you saying that allseasons are fine do you drive through fresh powder? Or do you wait a few hours for the plowtruck to come through? Because if it's the latter I can understand your opinions.

And snow is 40/60 tires/driver. Yeah knowing how to drive in the snow is massively important, it's one of the reasons that cocky idiots get their SUVs trapped and I go by them, but you can't play the game without the proper equipment.

Honestly this whole thread is kinda stupid at this point. Unless you've drive in Northeast winters you simply don't understand the type of snow and how much snow we get. Were in the Majors up here, and in the majors they don't let you on the field in sneakers.

To answer you question, I drive in snow, fresh, plowed, thawed then frozen, icy, fluffy, pellets, mixed with rain, mixed with ice, etc...

I'll pose this; perhaps some of us simply have better winter driving skills and do just fine with all seasons, where others need winter/snow tires.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by RPM90

To answer you question, I drive in snow, fresh, plowed, thawed then frozen, icy, fluffy, pellets, mixed with rain, mixed with ice, etc...

I'll pose this; perhaps some of us simply have better winter driving skills and do just fine with all seasons, where others need winter/snow tires.

Ohh burn


and on the hills and heavier snow that we get in the northeast, snows are a must. All seasons just dont cut it on a high torque RWD car

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I Some here are being an arse and condescending on this topic, as if only their opinion is the correct one, and they'll defend their position by claiming to have more money than others.
But, when intelligent commentary is lacking, getting personal is the way out.

The OP asked if using all-season tires in Toronto winters is a good idea, and everyone who has any sense replied that it's a bad idea. If someone here is foolish enough to drive a 135i on all-season tires through Toronto or Chicago winters, that doesn't mean the rest of us should say, oh well maybe it's not foolish. Sorry, it is still foolish.

[JimD]

I did a little math this morning on what the ~20-25% better traction in snow that was the result of the test I cited earlier in this thread means. We know that to stop, the kinetic energy of the moving car must be disipated by the brakes and the braking force is limited by the traction. So if we are going to stop a car with 25% less traction, we need 25% less kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a function of the velocity squared. So with that background, if we want to drive on all seasons in snow, we need to go about 5mph less velocity if we want to have the same stopping distance as another driver on snow tires. It isn't quite that simple, obviously, but at 35mph on snows, our stopping distance would be the same at 30.3 mph on all seasons. By 70 mph (probably shouldn't do that on snow regardless), our all season velocity needs to be 60.6 mph.

This was for specific Michelin tires on a Civic and things like the wear in the tires also makes a significant difference. But for a rough rule of thumb, going 5 mph slower on all seasons will make up for the traction difference assuming it is 25%. If you decide to go really fast on snow, you better increase that difference to 10 mph.

Relative to summer tires versus all seasons, in my shopping at tire rack I have noticed that the dry traction rating of ultra high performance all seasons is rated as highly as all but the best summer tires. There is quite a bit of overlap between the high performance tires of both types, in other words. I am assuming they don't shift the scale by type of tire.

The other thing I haven't noticed mentioned is other little "tricks" I've used to get where I was going. I used to carry a couple bags of play sand in the trunk of my 66 mustang, for instance, in the winter time. It helped traction and was available if I got stuck on an icy patch. Dropping the tire pressure a little also can help when the conditions are bad. Starting out in second can help under marginal conditions. These kind of things can help probably about as much as using snows instead of all seasons.

Jim

[Kief]

Okay, I'm curious what you guys would recommend for my situation (not to jack the OP's thread but it's similar). I'm in southeast PA.

I just sold my dedicated 17" winter tire/rim package since they do not fit my 2011 Z435is. I ran them for the last few years on everything from an E90, E92, and E89. Throughout the winter seasons, I averaged around 1200 miles on the winters. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to drive in the bad conditions. If I must, I now have my wife's X5d. So I debated whether I should even purchase another winter set-up for the Z4. However, I would miss not being able to drive it in the winter months and just having it sit in the garage.

So...if I decided on a winter package, given what I outlined above, would an A/S tire fit my needs better than a dedicated winter tire? I'm leaning toward the KM11 w/DWS for the following reasons:
1. The tires will hardly if ever see snow/ice over an inch or two. I just want something to get around in the cold/wet winter months. I think we can all agree that my summers are not a wise decision even in the cold/dry.
2. I like the A/S given the temp changes. I won't worry about my winters burning off on warmer days.
3. And who am I kidding, a slightly less expensive price (I'm cheap!)

Besides, isn't a "winter" tire bascially only a "winter" tire for the first few 32nds? Once the winter thread wears down, the tire functions as an A/S tire.

Thanks guys and be kind...

[BrokenVert]

Just addressing the end of your statement. A/S would probably be fine for your needs. But your part of PA is very hilly, and I know through personal experience how this car acts on steep hills in snows, in that case I would only trust my life to the best I could get.

And no. Well, sortof. It depends.

Crappy winter tires, like blizzacks, with dual compounding become all seasons after 6/32" of wear because they change from a wired compound to something crappy, but real winter tires (the dunlops and pirellis that I have personal experience with) are winters until they are slicks.

Let me tell you how snow tires work. They don't dig their way through the powder until they find land. In fact, they do the opposite. Winter tires are compounded and treaded to be liked by snow. They are designed to trap snow in their hundreds of tiny groves and trough a proper rubber compound.

This is because snow sticks better to itself than it does to rubber. So a snow tire essentially makes a tire out of snow for you to drive on.

This is why summer tires are useless in the snow. They do not allow the snow to stick to them and they have large bands of flat rubber, no place for snow to grab onto. Many high performance all seasons, like the ones listed in this thread stress summer a bit more than winter and thus lack the small channels that facilitate serious snow driving because they improve summer driving characteristics

Personally I don't mind spending the extra 25% on winters for those reasons for the extra sense of security and all around grip. Grip thats saved my life on several occasions when unexpected things happen.

Originally Posted by Kief

Okay, I'm curious what you guys would recommend for my situation (not to jack the OP's thread but it's similar). I'm in southeast PA.

I just sold my dedicated 17" winter tire/rim package since they do not fit my 2011 Z435is. I ran them for the last few years on everything from an E90, E92, and E89. Throughout the winter seasons, I averaged around 1200 miles on the winters. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to drive in the bad conditions. If I must, I now have my wife's X5d. So I debated whether I should even purchase another winter set-up for the Z4. However, I would miss not being able to drive it in the winter months and just having it sit in the garage.

So...if I decided on a winter package, given what I outlined above, would an A/S tire fit my needs better than a dedicated winter tire? I'm leaning toward the KM11 w/DWS for the following reasons:
1. The tires will hardly if ever see snow/ice over an inch or two. I just want something to get around in the cold/wet winter months. I think we can all agree that my summers are not a wise decision even in the cold/dry.
2. I like the A/S given the temp changes. I won't worry about my winters burning off on warmer days.
3. And who am I kidding, a slightly less expensive price (I'm cheap!)

Besides, isn't a "winter" tire bascially only a "winter" tire for the first few 32nds? Once the winter thread wears down, the tire functions as an A/S tire.

Thanks guys and be kind...

[JimD]

Kief,

I don't see your situation as much different than mine except you have to deal with frozen water a lot more often. I used to live in Pittsburgh so I know something about your winters. I drive my SUV on all season tires in the winter and I did when I lived in PA. I currently leave my less powerful 128i (than your Z4is) in the garage in bad weather but will put ultra performance all seasons on it (probably Contis) in a few months when the summer RFTs are worn out and then drive it whenever I want - still not much in snow because there are so many wrecks under those conditions.

But the choice is between having the maximum possible traction - about 20-25% more - in the snow at higher cost. I do not accept the arguments that you can't get places with the all seasons because over several decades I did. But there is a traction difference and it is not trivial. The question is whether you are willing (and able) to go a little slower to compensate for the all seasons (about 5 mph slower at typical snow travel speeds). And you have to recognize that the difference ONLY favors the snow tires in snow. Wet you are better off with the all seasons - and by the time you take the Z4is out, it will probably not be all snow you are dealing with.

I do not see how power enters into the equation, by the way, if the traction control is on. It simply reduces the throttle if it cannot establish enough control through application of the brakes.

Maximized performance (and safety) = snow tires. As a practical matter, all seasons have proven to be "good enough" for many of us and avoid the need for changeovers and additional space/cost.

Jim

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by Kief

Okay, I'm curious what you guys would recommend for my situation (not to jack the OP's thread but it's similar). I'm in southeast PA.

living in central/western NJ, i'm within a very small radius of you. i'd refer you to my initial post (below), as it seems your uses are about the same as mine. i too like saving money, and the kumhos are practically free! i paid under $450 shipped, mounted and balanced, and my current set is about to be mounted up for its 4th winter with tons of tread still left. having the same size front and rear, plus the fact that the ASX is non-directional, means you can rotate them very effectively for the best life.

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

i've been using kumho asx allseasons every winter since 2005/2006. this includes my e46 m3 and 135i. i agree that they are neither fish nor fowl, meaning they're definitely not as good as snowtires in the snow, and they're not as good as summer tires in the dry, but with NJ winters, the vast majority of what i'm dealing with is not snow, but slushy slop and rain. the kumhos offer GREAT wet performance, quite good performance in slop, acceptable performance in small amounts of snow, and are WAY less disappointing than snow tires on the 75% of the winter days that are just cold/dry in my area. i have the liberty of working from home anytime there's more than a little snow, so that's not a concern for me.

[Kief]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

ASX is non-directional, means you can rotate them very effectively for the best life.

fourtailpipes, did yo see the new Kumho 4X? Too new for reviews, but there is a $50 rebate for such an inexpensive tire.


Thanks guys for your input. Gary at TR seems to agree that an A/S tire may suit my needs best. However, I think the real issue for my situation, is whether getting a 2nd "winter" set-up is really worth the effort/money. Like I previously mentioned, I can take the X5 for the majority of the winter, but I would miss not taking out the Z. I don't know...

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by Kief

fourtailpipes, did yo see the new Kumho 4X? Too new for reviews, but there is a $50 rebate for such an inexpensive tire.

looks promising, but i have too much life left in my ASX... at this rate i'll probably sell the car before wearing these out. (i drive my car about 8,000 miles/year, so the allseasons probably only see 2-3k miles per winter).

[bozola]

I live in the Pacific NW. Snow is rare.

IMHO, all-seasons are a good option for the type of weather that we have here.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Kief

However, I think the real issue for my situation, is whether getting a 2nd "winter" set-up is really worth the effort/money.

Between now and winter, you should be able to find used wheels for $300 or less. That and $100 to mount the tires is the total cost. The tires themselves cost nothing, or probably less than nothing if they're cheaper than your summer tires. The effort is a couple hours a year swapping them on and off. If you don't own a jack and torque wrench, you can get the BMW seasonal tire jack kit for $135 from ECS Tuning.

[bimmer74]

Originally Posted by JimD

The other thing I haven't noticed mentioned is other little "tricks" I've used to get where I was going. I used to carry a couple bags of play sand in the trunk of my 66 mustang, for instance, in the winter time. It helped traction and was available if I got stuck on an icy patch. Dropping the tire pressure a little also can help when the conditions are bad. Starting out in second can help under marginal conditions. These kind of things can help probably about as much as using snows instead of all seasons.

Jim

Sorry but your reasoning is flawed. Putting sand in the trunk or starting in second gear will help you get going but it won't help you in an emergency situation where you need to stop in low grip conditions. A bunch of additional weight in the trunk will actually prolong your braking distances. People don't crash in winter because they get stuck. They crash because their tires lose grip during cornering or braking. AS tires won't help here - only tires with winter compounds and tread. The 20% more grip of winters can be the difference between crashing and avoiding an accident.

Also, the approach to winter tires is to get more active safety, not to drive faster than on all seasons. Going with the flow of traffic in slippery conditions, my car with snows will stop better that any car with AS tires around me. Period.

I drove through many winters with AS tires and I never had an accident. However, the first time I drove on snow tires in a major snowstorm, I was sold. The amount of grip, directional stability and traction was very reassuring.

Given the severe winter conditions in Toronto, I definitely recommend proper tires for the conditions.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Ohh burn


and on the hills and heavier snow that we get in the northeast, snows are a must. All seasons just dont cut it on a high torque RWD car

Peak power really doesn't matter, as we can control the amount of power applied to the drive wheels.
And braking is ultimately more important on slick surfaces, in the regard peak power is irrelevant.
What matters is available grip, and winter driving skill.

If anyone is really seeking sporty performance driving on snow covered roads, then you've got the wrong car in the first place.
My A4 was a blast in the winter. It would literally drive circles around a 135i, even with snow tires.
Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I'm not saying a RWD setup can't be driven safely in the snow.
It just can't compare to AWD in the snow, which is obvious.

As I've said, and you've pointed out, in hilly terrain snows will have more grip.
That's why tire choice depends on the circumstances one drives in and on.
I've lived and drove in southern Indiana, with RWD. It's very hilly down there with great twisty roads.
If I lived there now, I would have snow tires, and a stickier set of summer tires too.

I'm headed down at the end of the month for business, and I'll have the weekend to enjoy the cool roads down there, yes, on my all season tires.

[GaryS]

Here's an all-season vs snow tire test Tire Rack did with an E90 325i.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=103

200 foot acceleration on snow took 8 seconds with snow tires and 11 seconds with all-seasons. Braking from 30 mph took 60 feet on snow tires and 90 feet on all-seasons.

How can someone care enough about performance to buy a 135i, and then cripple its performance with all-season tires in a Toronto winter?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by GaryS

The OP asked if using all-season tires in Toronto winters is a good idea, and everyone who has any sense replied that it's a bad idea. If someone here is foolish enough to drive a 135i on all-season tires through Toronto or Chicago winters, that doesn't mean the rest of us should say, oh well maybe it's not foolish. Sorry, it is still foolish.

So, your OPINION of my reality is more valid?

I'd be a fool to accept your opinion of what I know as fact.

Toronto is about as flat as Chicago.

Overall, you know not of what you claim to know
If your opinion were a reality, then we'd have cars in ditches all over the place in Chicago, cause the majority of cars run on all season tires.
Yet, we're doing just fine, foolish and all.

I accept your apology for not knowing what you're talking about.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JimD

I did a little math this morning on what the ~20-25% better traction in snow that was the result of the test I cited earlier in this thread means. We know that to stop, the kinetic energy of the moving car must be disipated by the brakes and the braking force is limited by the traction. So if we are going to stop a car with 25% less traction, we need 25% less kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a function of the velocity squared. So with that background, if we want to drive on all seasons in snow, we need to go about 5mph less velocity if we want to have the same stopping distance as another driver on snow tires. It isn't quite that simple, obviously, but at 35mph on snows, our stopping distance would be the same at 30.3 mph on all seasons. By 70 mph (probably shouldn't do that on snow regardless), our all season velocity needs to be 60.6 mph.

This was for specific Michelin tires on a Civic and things like the wear in the tires also makes a significant difference. But for a rough rule of thumb, going 5 mph slower on all seasons will make up for the traction difference assuming it is 25%. If you decide to go really fast on snow, you better increase that difference to 10 mph.

Relative to summer tires versus all seasons, in my shopping at tire rack I have noticed that the dry traction rating of ultra high performance all seasons is rated as highly as all but the best summer tires. There is quite a bit of overlap between the high performance tires of both types, in other words. I am assuming they don't shift the scale by type of tire.

The other thing I haven't noticed mentioned is other little "tricks" I've used to get where I was going. I used to carry a couple bags of play sand in the trunk of my 66 mustang, for instance, in the winter time. It helped traction and was available if I got stuck on an icy patch. Dropping the tire pressure a little also can help when the conditions are bad. Starting out in second can help under marginal conditions. These kind of things can help probably about as much as using snows instead of all seasons.

Jim

Look at you getting all sciency on us.

You're trying to use logic and sane reasoning to explain how all seasons can do well in the snow, when the driver applies some winter driving skill.

But, you're confusing the issue, cause remember, it was already stated that any person with "sense" (common or uncommon?) knows all seasons are a bad idea for winter driving.
And those who speak to the contrary are just fools, and are being foolish.

Thus, you sir, are foolish and have no sense.
Welcome to the club.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Overall, you know not of what you claim to know.
If your opinion were a reality, then we'd have cars in ditches all over the place in Chicago, cause the majority of cars run on all season tires.

I was born in Chicago and lived there for 40 years. I didn't say it was foolish to drive a Honda Accord with all-season tires in Chicago. I said it is foolish to put all-season ties on a 135i in Chicago. You sacrificed a large amount of performance to save a small amount of money. That is a bad decision no matter how you try to rationalize it.

Also, you remarked several times that you believe your superior driving skills make up for the difference in performance between snow tires and all-seasons. What should I call a remark like that except foolish?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Kief

Okay, I'm curious what you guys would recommend for my situation (not to jack the OP's thread but it's similar). I'm in southeast PA.

I just sold my dedicated 17" winter tire/rim package since they do not fit my 2011 Z435is. I ran them for the last few years on everything from an E90, E92, and E89. Throughout the winter seasons, I averaged around 1200 miles on the winters. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to drive in the bad conditions. If I must, I now have my wife's X5d. So I debated whether I should even purchase another winter set-up for the Z4. However, I would miss not being able to drive it in the winter months and just having it sit in the garage.

So...if I decided on a winter package, given what I outlined above, would an A/S tire fit my needs better than a dedicated winter tire? I'm leaning toward the KM11 w/DWS for the following reasons:
1. The tires will hardly if ever see snow/ice over an inch or two. I just want something to get around in the cold/wet winter months. I think we can all agree that my summers are not a wise decision even in the cold/dry.
2. I like the A/S given the temp changes. I won't worry about my winters burning off on warmer days.
3. And who am I kidding, a slightly less expensive price (I'm cheap!)

Besides, isn't a "winter" tire bascially only a "winter" tire for the first few 32nds? Once the winter thread wears down, the tire functions as an A/S tire.

Thanks guys and be kind...

Well, you know where I'm headed.

If you're only going to drive on sunny winter days with nearly clear roads, you'll have BETTER performance with all seasons than you will on snow tires. Snow tires are designed to work in and with the snow, as Bvert tells us. On clear roads snows tread will be squirmy, louder, and wear quicker. In regards to ambient temps, all season compounds handle cold temps just fine

Given your conditions for when you'll be driving, all seasons are the better choice. Look for a tire that has the best winter traction performance, along with excellent wet road performance, as your likely to encounter wet/damp conditions.

The Conti DWS rated excellent for those conditions. That's why I picked them.
Compared to other all seasons, the sidewall is on the softer side, which gives it a great ride with good bump compliance. The steering response is a bit softer due to the softer sidewall.