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      08-31-2010, 09:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
I'd love to see some real world numbers. I average about 20mpg in my 335, spending quite a bit of time in stop/go traffic mixed in with sprints at 80mph when there's no traffic and some spirited driving on the side roads.

Any comparisons out there for 128 vs 135?
Generally same driving habits.

330ci 2004 6 spd got 22.7
m3 2002 6 spd vert got 21.4
330ci zhp step got 22.1
135 step 22.1 right now

these are all off the obc

my 02 m roadster (s54 5 spd) 21.5 (calculated...imagine no obc)

i don't drive the 530xi enough on my usual run to comment, however highway run of 450 miles with the 135 was 29.7 vs 30.1 for the 530xi (again by obc)
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      08-31-2010, 09:56 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDDesign99 View Post
I've always thought that while the 135i is a better car, the 128i is a better BMW. Its more of a pure driving experience and more closely tied to BMW's roots.
i whole heartedly agree. And by better, i'm not talking about functionality or fun at track, but simply raw performance.

It's like one of my old f bodies (gm ls1 car) got busy with my e46 and out popped the 135. great car, not purebread but a great mutt!
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      08-31-2010, 11:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Eh, not necessarily. If you go on boost, you're going to suck down some fuel. When on boost, forced induction engines consume far larger volumes of air than NA engines, and thus more fuel. This is true even at lower RPMs.

A turbocharged engine is only a net positive when compared to a larger displacement engine that must move large volumes of air all the time.
That's somewhat true, but there is more to it.
A turbo design attempts to give you the fuel economy of it's smaller displacement, when driven normally as one would a comparable size NA engine. But then, when the driver does want the power of a larger sized engine, he can still have it by giving it more throttle and inducing the added efficiency of forced air into that same combustion space.

A turbo engine doesn't have a net positive only against a power comparable larger sized NA engine, it also gives the benefit of the better fuel economy of the smaller displacement, when driven in the same manner. When MPG is compared to power production, the same size 3.0 turbo is actually MORE fuel efficient.

How is that!?

Consider that both engines have a 3.0 liter capacity.
The NA version achieves 230hp and 200lb ft of torque, and gets, in manual form, 18mpg city 28mpg highway.

The TT version achieves 300hp and 300lb ft of torque, and gets, in manual form, 18mpg city 25mpg highway.

The TT puts out 70hp more and 100lb ft more torque than the same sized NA engine, yet, it gets the SAME city MPG.
It is more fuel efficient, as it can produce 30% more HP, and uses the same amount of fuel. So, for typical city driving either engine uses about the same fuel. Remember, current EPA MPG tests use more realistic driving conditions than before. Achieving the same city MPG demonstrates the efficiency of the turbo design.
Along with that same city MPG, the TT also gives you more power.
Granted, if you get on it MPG falls, but it also falls for the NA engine once you smack the loud pedal as well.

Also, the TT gives you a whopping 50% more torque.
That is significant, and demonstrates how turbo charging can improve efficiency even compared to same size NA engines.
30% more HP, 50% more torque, same MPG.

On the highway, the NA engine has a slight advantage as it gets 3mpg better fuel economy. Part of this is due to the NA cars 120lb lighter weight as it has less standard content, and doesn't have the additional intake plumbing of the turbo system.
So, the TT takes a hit due to carrying more inherent weight, but also has more standard content, to bring the total weight up.

Overall, the TT has 3mpg less, or 12% less fuel economy, but remember, it also gives 30% more HP, and 50% more torque. Not a bad trade for that much more power output.
Yes, the turbo will use more fuel when you call up the boost. But, the NA engine will also use more fuel as revs climb to achieve more power.
But, given the very high percentage difference in overall power, I don't see an equal percentage loss in MPG.

Also, in a turbo you're not in big boost very often at all. It's not you drive it at 100% boost capacity all the time.
I drive my 135i manual fairly aggressively, with most of my driving at the same rate as any other car on the road. I still manage 22-23mpg overall.
That's pretty darn good for acceleration fun I get.

Some TT drivers get in the high teens as they are on boost quite often, and/or drive in hilly areas. But, a NA driver driving in a similar fashion is not going to get 28mpg average either. It's gonna drop big too.
The NA engine is a sweet piece that loves to rev, and needs to rev if you want more power. Those revs cost in friction and more fuel consumption.
There is no free lunch. With a turbo engine, you can achieve same acceleration as the NA engine with less throttle and less revs.

If the NA version were getting something like 24mpg city and 30mpg highway, then we could say there is a substantial difference.
But, that's not the case.

Overall, the TT engine can be considered more fuel efficient when you factor in the added power gained from the same engine size.
That's the "magic" of turbocharging.
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      08-31-2010, 11:17 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
I'd love to see some real world numbers. I average about 20mpg in my 335, spending quite a bit of time in stop/go traffic mixed in with sprints at 80mph when there's no traffic and some spirited driving on the side roads.

Any comparisons out there for 128 vs 135?
What trans do you have?

I have a 135i manual.
Mixed driving.
Daily highway commute at between 70-80mph.
Regularly invoke boost and rev to near red line.
Average MPG is 22-23, drops about 1mpg with AC on all the time.
My 1 is also lighter than your 3.
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      08-31-2010, 11:36 PM   #49
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I haven’t read article, but reading the thread I can tell that article completely shares my feeling. 128 is a great car and it has enough power. Problem of 135 that it has too much power, however it makes more complicated managing it. Read the forum and you will find a thread where a guy complained that couldn’t catch up SUV on a ramp, since 135 was about to lose a track. It won’t happen with 128 since it has adequate power for turns, so certainly you have no fears to lose control of the car. How many 135 owners can confess that were passed by much slower cars like Civics or mini vans? It happens for me all time. However when I had 328 loaner, no one car could pass me. Again because less power is more manageable and as result car is much faster since is more controllable.
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      08-31-2010, 11:38 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Then you probably won't like this

I can actually see a valid argument for the 135 taking less skill as a daily driver even if you are pushing it beyond legal limits (but not to either yours or the car's), having fun with on/off ramps, etc... With the 128, you have to better understand how the engine performs and how you need to work the transmission to get the best effect when playing with it like that. Because of the power of the 135, you can get away with being a little sloppy in how you apply the power (e.g. to go from 65 to 85 most people will be impressed with what the 135 will do in 6th while the 128 will require going down to 5th or even 4th to get that same "wow" factor).

I would also argue that at the limits (e.g. track), the 135 doesn't take any more skill over the 128. They just take different skill sets (assuming the power train is the only difference between the cars) based on how they apply their power.

Now I will agree that, because of the additional power and all that goes with it, you should have a higher skill set as the 135 is going to get to your personal limits before the 128 and result in more unprepared idiots in accidents.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the 135 is a great car and would be getting it instead of a 128 if I thought that BMW knew how to build a sound turbo system (e.g. HPFP issues still not proven to be solved). They both have their own unique skill requirements and benefits/detriments.
You can be "sloppy" in how you apply the power of 300hp and 300lb ft?
You're kidding, you've got to be.
If what your shoveling is true, than one of the easiest to drive sloppoly cars would be a Z06. Yeah, right. Go drive one and go ahead and be sloppy with your power application. You'll wonder why you made such a statement as it spits you off into the weeds.

There is no "unique skill" required to drive a 128i versus a 135i.
It's not like you're going from a rear engine RWD Porsche and into a FWD front engine SRT4, where this is a big change in how to drive each one.
You're comparing basically the SAME car between a 128i and 135i.

All of the skills and techniques you just described are as applicable to the 135i.
To say the 128i requires more skill or concentration is simply ego stroking.
I can't believe you would even make such a statement and expect to be taken seriously.
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      09-01-2010, 12:00 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOCKBA View Post
I haven’t read article, but reading the thread I can tell that article completely shares my feeling. 128 is a great car and it has enough power. Problem of 135 that it has too much power, however it makes more complicated managing it. Read the forum and you will find a thread where a guy complained that couldn’t catch up SUV on a ramp, since 135 was about to lose a track. It won’t happen with 128 since it has adequate power for turns, so certainly you have no fears to lose control of the car. How many 135 owners can confess that were passed by much slower cars like Civics or mini vans? It happens for me all time. However when I had 328 loaner, no one car could pass me. Again because less power is more manageable and as result car is much faster since is more controllable.
I read that post, and basically there was something wrong with his car.
The SUV he was talking about couldn't generate nearly the same level of grip as a 1 base suspension, let alone a 135i with sport suspension and tires.

Taking an off ramp is more about suspension and tire capability than power. Just because one may have 300lb ft of torque or 500lb ft of torque, there is this thing called a "throttle", which is controlled by the driver.
It's not an on/off switch. You can decide to put out 100lb ft or 200lb ft. You have to know when and how to apply it.

When I had my 325i I was passed and have passed as many SUV's and mini-vans as in my 135i. But, I don't understand your point.
You're talking about being past less often in a 328i than in a 135i. Under what conditions? More so, what does that have to do with how much power each car has?

I like the 128i and liked the 328i sport even more, as it has a better sorted suspension, which is even more confidence inspiring than my less than great 135i sport suspension. The NA engine is free revving and ultra smooth. Also, to me, it has a cooler more "racy" sound as the revs climb compared to the turbo damped high rpm sound of the TT engine.

Still, I don't get all this rhetoric about "too much" power from the TT engine. It just makes me think that some of you are simply intimidated by this much power. That's not a slam. I understand not wanting to deal with it.
But, making statements like, it takes more or different skill to drive a 128i vs a 135i, sounds silly to me.

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      09-01-2010, 08:41 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
You can be "sloppy" in how you apply the power of 300hp and 300lb ft?
You're kidding, you've got to be.
Are you not paying attention to the context of the statement? As they say, reading is fundamental.

The context for both the article and my comments is purely for normal driving conditions not real performance driving.

Quote:
If what your shoveling is true, than one of the easiest to drive sloppoly cars would be a Z06. Yeah, right. Go drive one and go ahead and be sloppy with your power application. You'll wonder why you made such a statement as it spits you off into the weeds.
I don't know the Z06's power curve so I can't speak to it, there also isn't a NA vs FI comparison to be made (as far as I know). But if it applies it's power in such a manner that down shifting is not required to accelerate (quickly) when you are already at highway speeds, then yes I would say the same thing. If, instead, it's power curve is such that you do need to down shift, then no I wouldn't.

In a better comparison, I've driven both a NA 996 C4 and a 996 Turbo. I would say that the same statement holds true. At highway speeds, just pressing the gas in the Turbo gives you more than enough power to get you from 65 to 85 with no hesitation. In the NA 996, you have to downshift for that same feeling. Yes the NA will still accelerate nicely in 6th gear, but not like the Turbo does. To do that (just like with the 128 vs the 135) you MUST down shift.

And yes I have watched an idiot that didn't know what he was doing or how to drive it run a Z06 off an Auto-X course and literally launch it about 4 ft in the air when he hit the curb which sent him over the embankment and into a 6 foot ditch. I was quite surprised that the car was actually drivable (no idea how road worthy it really was, but it moved under it's own power) after it was pulled from the ditch. Wasn't even his car...

Quote:
To say the 128i requires more skill or concentration is simply ego stroking.
Again, you aren't comprehending either the article or my comments. The point is that the 135 (because of it's power curve) has the ability to mask an inexperienced driver's lack of understanding in day to day driving. You punch the gas and it goes and goes quickly. In that same scenario in a 128, you punch the gas in the 1500 - 2500 range and it's going take it's sweet time to do anything (comparatively speaking).

I never implied that the 135 doesn't require skill to drive well or that the 128 requires more skill, just that it won't mask your lack of skill in a very specific instance of day to day driving. In point of fact I clearly said that I agreed with the opinion that you should have more skill to drive the 135 because it's power will surprise the inexperienced and contribute to an accident.

And contrary to your overly simplistic view point, if everything else in the cars is equal they do require slightly different skills to drive effectively at the performance level. The engines do not apply their power in the same manner and you have to know that and adjust your driving to that. If you try to drive them the same you are either going to kill your self when you launch the 135 out of a corner with way too much power or think the 128 is an under performing piece of crap (and still potentially kill yourself when you cause an accident on the track).
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      09-01-2010, 09:54 AM   #53
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I think the idea is that the 128i takes a bit more work to extract performance from.

Obviously it takes a lot of skill to control a car as powerful as the 135i at the limit, but to some extent, a mediocre driver could probably get away with more throttle mashing on the 135i than the 128i (in the sense that it's easier to drive a fast car fast).

There's actually a concurrent thread about a 135i/MX-5 comparo that talks about the 135i being "too fast" in the sense of being able to mask a novice driver's shortcomings somewhat.
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      09-01-2010, 02:08 PM   #54
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I think you are talking about two different things.

To get a 128 to go fast compared to other cars requires being in the right gear. A 135 is at least equally fast while being in too tall a gear to produce maximum acceleration. So from the standpoint of not having to pay attention to the gear the 135 is easier.

On the other hand, when you have an abundance of power, applying that power at the wrong time or in the wrong way can get you in trouble. Especially if you have DSC off. From that point of view, the 128 is the easier car to drive fast - because it will not get you in trouble as quickly.

My bimmer is a 128i and I drove a 135i when I took performance center delivery. The DSC was on and the 135i seemed to be totally controllable.

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      09-02-2010, 01:01 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Are you not paying attention to the context of the statement? As they say, reading is fundamental.

The context for both the article and my comments is purely for normal driving conditions not real performance driving.


I don't know the Z06's power curve so I can't speak to it, there also isn't a NA vs FI comparison to be made (as far as I know). But if it applies it's power in such a manner that down shifting is not required to accelerate (quickly) when you are already at highway speeds, then yes I would say the same thing. If, instead, it's power curve is such that you do need to down shift, then no I wouldn't.

In a better comparison, I've driven both a NA 996 C4 and a 996 Turbo. I would say that the same statement holds true. At highway speeds, just pressing the gas in the Turbo gives you more than enough power to get you from 65 to 85 with no hesitation. In the NA 996, you have to downshift for that same feeling. Yes the NA will still accelerate nicely in 6th gear, but not like the Turbo does. To do that (just like with the 128 vs the 135) you MUST down shift.

And yes I have watched an idiot that didn't know what he was doing or how to drive it run a Z06 off an Auto-X course and literally launch it about 4 ft in the air when he hit the curb which sent him over the embankment and into a 6 foot ditch. I was quite surprised that the car was actually drivable (no idea how road worthy it really was, but it moved under it's own power) after it was pulled from the ditch. Wasn't even his car...


Again, you aren't comprehending either the article or my comments. The point is that the 135 (because of it's power curve) has the ability to mask an inexperienced driver's lack of understanding in day to day driving. You punch the gas and it goes and goes quickly. In that same scenario in a 128, you punch the gas in the 1500 - 2500 range and it's going take it's sweet time to do anything (comparatively speaking).

I never implied that the 135 doesn't require skill to drive well or that the 128 requires more skill, just that it won't mask your lack of skill in a very specific instance of day to day driving. In point of fact I clearly said that I agreed with the opinion that you should have more skill to drive the 135 because it's power will surprise the inexperienced and contribute to an accident.

And contrary to your overly simplistic view point, if everything else in the cars is equal they do require slightly different skills to drive effectively at the performance level. The engines do not apply their power in the same manner and you have to know that and adjust your driving to that. If you try to drive them the same you are either going to kill your self when you launch the 135 out of a corner with way too much power or think the 128 is an under performing piece of crap (and still potentially kill yourself when you cause an accident on the track).
First, I take great pride in my writing and reading skills.

The manner in which you write your point, translates to how the reader comprehends it. You say I didn't comprehend what you wrote and that I need to increase my reading comprehension. I say, you need to increase your writing abilities, and hone your writing skills, if the point you are trying to make is different than what I am understanding.

Much of what you write is confusing, hard to understand, and contradictory.

To the actual point at hand, let me then reread and address some of your comments. Your comments in red.

Then you probably won't like this

You're right. But, you're now challenging my reading skills, because I'm pointing out why I don't like "this".

I can actually see a valid argument for the 135 taking less skill as a daily driver even if you are pushing it beyond legal limits (but not to either yours or the car's), having fun with on/off ramps, etc...

Ok. Clearly, you promote "a valid argument", that a 135i takes LESS skill to drive as a daily driver. And, you also say it takes less skill to drive at even spirited levels, which would be "beyond legal limits".
If you think the argument is "valid", then you imply it and support it.

This is contrary to your current statement:
I never implied that the 135 doesn't require skill to drive well or that the 128 requires more skill,


Actually, you do imply that the 135 requires less skill to drive as a daily driver, and as a daily driver driven in a more sporting manner.

With the 128, you have to better understand how the engine performs and how you need to work the transmission to get the best effect when playing with it like that. Because of the power of the 135, you can get away with being a little sloppy in how you apply the power (e.g. to go from 65 to 85 most people will be impressed with what the 135 will do in 6th while the 128 will require going down to 5th or even 4th to get that same "wow" factor).

Up there, you imply and state, that a 128 driver has to have a "better" understanding of an engines power band, as well as a "better" understanding of how to use the gearing to extract and apply the 128's power.

Where is the need for better or different driving skills, that a 135i driver wouldn't also need to have if he's going to come up against a car with more power? What is the difference?
If a 911 can get from 60-90 in 3 seconds while staying in top gear, then as a 135i owner, do I have to have better or different skills to understand that I need to downshift and apply more throttle to match the 911?
To me this is just common sense, and has nothing to do with better or different driving skill with a 128i vs a 135i.

I would also argue that at the limits (e.g. track), the 135 doesn't take any more skill over the 128. They just take different skill sets (assuming the power train is the only difference between the cars) based on how they apply their power.

However, you contradict yourself with this:
In point of fact I clearly said that I agreed with the opinion that you should have more skill to drive the 135 because it's power will surprise the inexperienced and contribute to an accident.


Clearly?

Sooooo....you need less, no, more skill? Or is it, better, less different, less skill?
NO. It's different, right, more different better skills, more or less.


This is getting silly. I was going to get more into your comments, but forget it. The more I read it the more I'm convinced that you're not even sure of what you're trying to say.

I'll simply end with this.
At the track, or on the road, any driver needs driving skill to do and drive well. That should be obvious
.
This whole "different skill sets" thing. What is this?
If I were a race car driver who now needs to bake a cake, then I would need different skill sets.
As a track or race driver, then I need the SAME skills set as a pro driver to do well. What a non pro doesn't have, is not a "different" skill set, they don't have the experience with the skills. They have not developed their driving skills. You don't need to develop your 128i driving skills, you need to develop your overall driving skills. That goes for all of us.

An AWD had different handling characteristics. A high strung turbo has a different throttle response. A mid-engine car has a different steering balance. Different types of setups call on the drivers skill to adapt to the varying characteristics of different automobiles.
There are cars that require a better skilled driver to extract the best performance. But, those are still driving skills, that have been honed and developed with experience.

If you're a skilled track driver, then you should be able to do well driving a 128i or an Infiniti G37 sedan. Each car may call upon THOSE skills a bit more in one area than another, but overall, you're driving a car. Same skill set. But, don't tell me that a 128i driver has to have "better' or "different" skills in order to drive that car.

If that is what you're trying to say, then we agree.
If not, then we simply don't agree.

That's it.




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      09-02-2010, 01:18 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
Maybe he was in run flat mode? It does sound odd indeed!
Wouldn't make that much difference, I autocross on runflats and do well enough to surprise everyone else at the event when they realize what tires I'm on.

As for the guy who can't keep up with an SUV on an onramp with his 135, either he can't drive or something is terribly wrong with his car. It has nothing to do with the 135 "having too much power" that's BS. Just last week I went for a spirited drive with some 335 and M3 owners. 2 of the M3 owners behind me commented on how quickly I took a turn and they thought they couldn't go that fast without losing grip even though, to me, it was perfectly normal and well within the car's limit. Perfect example of not knowing the limit of your own car. They never drove their car quickly around corners so they never knew they could actually take the corner at that speed perfectly safely. I have a feeling that 135 driver was the same way. I Auto-X my car, and the M3 drivers only drive on the street, so they never really got to learn to drive their cars.

Lots of bench racing and novel writing going on in this thread

No idea why people get so worked up over differences in personal preference. The 128 and 135 are the same car. One simply has more power than the other. That's it. Some people like the extra power, some people either don't care or would rather not have a turbo. That's that.
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      09-02-2010, 01:22 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
I think the idea is that the 128i takes a bit more work to extract performance from.

Obviously it takes a lot of skill to control a car as powerful as the 135i at the limit, but to some extent, a mediocre driver could probably get away with more throttle mashing on the 135i than the 128i (in the sense that it's easier to drive a fast car fast).

There's actually a concurrent thread about a 135i/MX-5 comparo that talks about the 135i being "too fast" in the sense of being able to mask a novice driver's shortcomings somewhat.
That comparo, like the article here, is simply one persons interpretation.
And, these types of articles get written for whatever reason the author feels like.

One could just as easily take the viewpoint that it's much easier to drive a less powerful car, because you don't have to worry about overwhelming the tires or suspension. So it could be more fun to drive a slow car with a nice suspension setup.

The saying is not "it's easier to drive a fast car fast."
It's, "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, then to drive a fast car slow".
The implication being that a less powerful car is more forgiving to mistakes.
While a fast car isn't much fun when you can't drive it fast.

You apply full throttle in a Miata coming out of tight turn, and, hey, nothing bad happened, because there isn't enough power to overwhelm the tires and suspension. That gives you confidence, and confidence gives you encouragement and excitement to do it again. Some "slow" cars are a lot of fun. There is a reason why Miatas are so loved by a wide range of drivers.
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      09-02-2010, 01:25 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
Wouldn't make that much difference, I autocross on runflats and do well enough to surprise everyone else at the event when they realize what tires I'm on.

As for the guy who can't keep up with an SUV on an onramp with his 135, either he can't drive or something is terribly wrong with his car. It has nothing to do with the 135 "having too much power" that's BS.

Lots of bench racing and novel writing going on in this thread

No idea why people get so worked up over differences in personal preference. The 128 and 135 are the same car. One simply has more power than the other. That's it. Some people like the extra power, some people either don't care or would rather not have a turbo. That's that.
Hey, my smaller 2 slat bench is faster than your heavier 3 slat bench.
If you don't believe me, then you wanna bench race!?
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      09-02-2010, 04:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The saying is not "it's easier to drive a fast car fast."
It's, "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, then to drive a fast car slow".
The implication being that a less powerful car is more forgiving to mistakes.
While a fast car isn't much fun when you can't drive it fast.
I know the saying, I was just offering a variation on the theme.

I still don't think it's that far-fetched of a concept that to a certain extent a powerful car can mask a driver's shortcomings on the track (assuming that driver is at least skilled enough to keep out of big trouble).
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      09-02-2010, 07:42 AM   #60
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Driven to their full potential, the 135i is going to be harder to drive. Because it's full potential speed is higher so things are happening quicker and it will take more skill.

Driven to the same speed around a track or accelerating, the 135i is easier to drive. It is not near full acceleration if it is matching a 128i. You can make a mis-judgement on the timing of a shift and still keep up.

Applying full throttle at the wrong time without DSC is more likely to lead to an issue with the 135i. More power = more potential for large amounts of oversteer.

Jim
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      09-02-2010, 08:24 AM   #61
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lol wow are we really arguing which car takes more "skill" to drive lol
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      09-02-2010, 10:00 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Raine View Post
lol wow are we really arguing which car takes more "skill" to drive lol
Apparently 70hp makes it a totally different car . I mean, we are not talking 100hp vs 170hp here. It's 230hp, which most commoner find too fast, to 300hp, which most commoner can't handle anyway.
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      09-02-2010, 10:58 AM   #63
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Wow... alot about skills and hp numbers... what about simple pure enjoyment factor??

Personally I got a 128 because i find tremendous pleasure in driving a "slow" car "fast".... Believe me i could have picked any model i wanted.. My other car is a Miata, and for those who have never driven one 10/10ths...what a blast...

Personally i felt that the 135 was "more" than i would ever use or want living in NY... same goes for the my choice of "step". The Miata is a 6spd.. ive driven back from NJ in 4hrs of traffic... at the 3 hr point you want to tear the gear box out, and run away yelling and screaming...

As far as skill goes, any car driven 9/10 ths needs skill.. just as easy to loose the tail in my 130hp Miata as it is in a 230hp 128i.. but how often and for how long do we drive our cars at 9/10ths????? Thats the real question.. The 128I (optioned correctly) is therefor in my opinion a MUCH better Daily Driver all around car as opposed to the 135i considering we drive our cars at 5/10ths all day long...

just my .02
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      09-02-2010, 11:44 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
By "run flat mode" I mean one of his tires had 10 lbs. pressure or less.

Surely you don't autocross on your side walls only!
Autocross on runflats? You're crazy. I remove my tires and run on my wheels alone! Can't beat the grip of the wheels digging into the asphalt!
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      09-02-2010, 12:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
Driven to their full potential, the 135i is going to be harder to drive. Because it's full potential speed is higher so things are happening quicker and it will take more skill.

Driven to the same speed around a track or accelerating, the 135i is easier to drive. It is not near full acceleration if it is matching a 128i. You can make a mis-judgement on the timing of a shift and still keep up.

Applying full throttle at the wrong time without DSC is more likely to lead to an issue with the 135i. More power = more potential for large amounts of oversteer.

Jim
Thank you, somebody that actually makes sense!

And sorry but I still think I would have a better time driving a fast car slow, and then slowly working up to the limit. I've driven a miata 10/10ths, and I've driven a C5 Z06 10/10ths, but even at 7/10ths the Corvette is faster, and more exciting to drive.

Maybe I'm weird, I don't like to have full traction mashing the throttle in first gear out of a hairpin. I have more fun when the rear-end jumps out at 80mph on a sweeper with 400+hp on tap, and I let off, it snaps back in place and I ease into the throttle again, trying to find the max acceleration while not overwhelming the tires.
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      09-02-2010, 03:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveHard View Post
Wow... alot about skills and hp numbers... what about simple pure enjoyment factor??

Personally I got a 128 because i find tremendous pleasure in driving a "slow" car "fast".... Believe me i could have picked any model i wanted.. My other car is a Miata, and for those who have never driven one 10/10ths...what a blast...

Personally i felt that the 135 was "more" than i would ever use or want living in NY... same goes for the my choice of "step". The Miata is a 6spd.. ive driven back from NJ in 4hrs of traffic... at the 3 hr point you want to tear the gear box out, and run away yelling and screaming...

As far as skill goes, any car driven 9/10 ths needs skill.. just as easy to loose the tail in my 130hp Miata as it is in a 230hp 128i.. but how often and for how long do we drive our cars at 9/10ths????? Thats the real question.. The 128I (optioned correctly) is therefor in my opinion a MUCH better Daily Driver all around car as opposed to the 135i considering we drive our cars at 5/10ths all day long...

just my .02

You had me right up the 128i being MUCH better daily driver than the 135i Step to Step...

For a daily driver in traffic as you are and comparing step to step, the 135i is in my opinion the better daily driver, for sure. Want to squeeze a little more acceleration to merge, change lanes, or do whatever, the 135 is so effortless and doesn't need to shift and rev like the 128 would. Sure it's more overkill than the 128 is in traffic commuting but I will say much more enjoyable than my 330 zhp step commuter i replaced.

Now if you live in an area where you get to open it up a fair bit with decent roads, etc. I would consider the 128i manual a good choice, perhaps even better than the 135 for daily driving, as you can really extract the power from it.

The 128 to me is much more pure as a BMW (light car, nice revving inline 6) that needs the manual trans to complete the package (from an enthusiast standpoint). My pseudo BMW (same car but now with huge GM v8/MB v8 torque) doesn't need the manual, and has lost the purity; but it's what i was ready for this time.
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