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      06-14-2016, 04:57 PM   #1
squidge
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Loss of power at the track

Did my first HPDE yesterday. I was pushing the car fairly hard; went solo on my third session and my instructor suggested intermediate at my next event.

Anyway, during the last three of my four sessions, about 20 minutes into it I'd experience a loss of power and not be able to accelerate. The car would hold whatever speed I was at if I floored it, and was not acting like limp mode or displaying warnings, but would not accelerate. Cooling it for a couple minutes brought things back to normal.

Is this temperature related? Oil or IAT?
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      06-15-2016, 07:52 AM   #2
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Did you get the half engine symbol?
I've found that if you run with the heat turned on full hot, it can prevent this from happening.

-Joe
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      06-15-2016, 09:55 AM   #3
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No warning lights at all. After more research, looks like a lot of the N54/55 guys have overheating and limp mode issues at the track related to oil temps, and on a 90 degree day and pushing the car hard I may have been getting my N51 just into that limp mode threshold as well.
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      06-15-2016, 01:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidge View Post
No warning lights at all. After more research, looks like a lot of the N54/55 guys have overheating and limp mode issues at the track related to oil temps, and on a 90 degree day and pushing the car hard I may have been getting my N51 just into that limp mode threshold as well.
Running with the heat on will help keep down coolant temps. Oil temps won't drop much though.

On my N51 (auto too!) my coolant temps were never troubling. I've never seen it above 99c.

I would get power cuts with my auto 128i on track after about 15 minutes. Turns out the DME was reducing power due to high brake temps (an estimated number based on driving conditions). No lights came up on the dash when this happened on track. But, I believe a code was stored.

Read through this thread a bit: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=944126&page=3

Once I coded that off I was able to really push the car. That is when I found out that the stock oil cooling was completely insufficient for using the car in this manner. Oil temps were hitting 290f. The DME pulls power in stages once oil temps begin to rise over 270f. You wont get a light on the dash until the car goes into full limp mode at around 300f.

I would log temps next time you go out. Look into retrofitting an oil cooler if you expect to keep driving the car hard. I actually have the OFH and OTH for sale along with an oil cooler if your interested!

Also, http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412156

Last edited by bNks334; 07-18-2016 at 02:16 PM..
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      06-15-2016, 03:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Running with the heat on will help keep down coolant temps. Oil temps won't drop much though.

On my N51 (auto too!) my coolant temps were never troubling. I've never seen it above 99c.

I would get power cuts with my auto 128i on track after about 15 minutes. Turns out the DME was reducing power due to high brake temps (an estimated number based on driving conditions). No lights came up on the dash when this happened on track.

Read through this thread a bit: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=944126&page=3

Once I coded that off I was able to really push the car. That is when I found out that the stock oil cooling was completely insufficient for using the car in this manner. Oil temps were hitting 290f. The DME pulls power in stages once oil temps begin to rise over 270f. You wont get a light on the dash until the car goes into full limp mode at around 300f.

I would log temps next time you go out. Look into retrofitting an oil cooler if you expect to keep driving the car hard. I actually have the OFH and OTH for sale along with an oil cooler if your interested!

Also, http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412156
That's great info, thanks! My car is so shiny new I'll probably buy new parts if I retrofit an oil cooler setup, but thanks for pointing out your listing.
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      06-18-2016, 11:14 AM   #6
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Try running a higher percentage of water to coolant. I run 75%/25% and a bottle of water wetter during the spring/summer and early fall. I also sometimes short shift just a bit. Try to keep it under 6k RPM, especially on 90+ days. A lot easier to do with a dct. I've never hit limp mode and I've run pretty hard. Even had the car co driven on a track day on a high 80s day. I want upgrade my oil cooler, but have a 2016 GTI that I'm modding also. Just not enough money

Last edited by jafo1701; 06-18-2016 at 11:19 AM..
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      06-18-2016, 11:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafo1701 View Post
Try running a higher percentage of water to coolant. I run 75%/25% and a bottle of water wetter during the spring/summer and early fall. I also sometimes short shift just a bit. Try to keep it under 6k RPM, especially on 90+ days. A lot easier to do with a dct. I've never hit limp mode and I've run pretty hard. Even had the car co driven on a track day on a high 80s day. I want upgrade my oil cooler, but have a 2016 GTI that I'm modding also. Just not enough money
Very good feedback on no-cost approaches to manage your temps at the track. I dont have an auto tranny to cool in my 2011 135i, still use stock oil cooler, still use stock coolant and water mixture. I manage my water and oil temps by turning on the heater at its highest setting, with side vents enabled and pointed towards the outside. I short shift around 5000-5500 RPM, and the torque levels starts dropping at about that RPM anyway.

My N55 engine has a custom tune that is beyond a stage 2 agressive OTS map too. Oil gets changed about every 4-5 track days, as soon as its starts thinning. Oil also plays an important role in reducing temps by the way...

I coded all the nannies out with NCSExpert also, to prevent e-diff and reduction of power due to hard braking ... No overheating issue or limp mode in the last 2 lapping seasons. Im a volunteer instructor at two local clubs. Car used to see track twice a week just last year. This year, I only book full day events about once a month...
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      06-18-2016, 06:11 PM   #8
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Dcaron, I get that brake warning on my display sometimes at the track. The first time I was worried, drove conservatively the remainder of the session. After that though I drove like normal after the warning, which is pretty hard. Never had the car cut power on me though. At what point will it reduce power? I have an LSD installed so don't worry about the e-diff. Haven't had to turn on the heat yet, may try it see if my temps reduce. Max I've hit is 270 on a 90+ day.
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      06-19-2016, 08:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafo1701 View Post
Dcaron, I get that brake warning on my display sometimes at the track. The first time I was worried, drove conservatively the remainder of the session. After that though I drove like normal after the warning, which is pretty hard. Never had the car cut power on me though. At what point will it reduce power? I have an LSD installed so don't worry about the e-diff. Haven't had to turn on the heat yet, may try it see if my temps reduce. Max I've hit is 270 on a 90+ day.
Its subtle but there is power reduction when the computers decide you have been abusing the brakes as in too many consecutive hard stops. I have an LSD too and the E-DIFF still interfered before I coded it out. There are several threads about this... Look for some of mine on 1addicts...
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      06-19-2016, 10:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Its subtle but there is power reduction when the computers decide you have been abusing the brakes as in too many consecutive hard stops. I have an LSD too and the E-DIFF still interfered before I coded it out. There are several threads about this... Look for some of mine on 1addicts...
I did a search and couldn't find your particular post on it, but will take your word on the issues. What do you need to code that out? I'm wondering if the dealership can do it. I don't put much trust in them though. The BMW SA is clueless in my area .
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      06-19-2016, 10:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafo1701 View Post
I did a search and couldn't find your particular post on it, but will take your word on the issues. What do you need to code that out? I'm wondering if the dealership can do it. I don't put much trust in them though. The BMW SA is clueless in my area .
Dealerships will not touch that type of coding as there are liability issues should something happen to you with all the nannies turned off, beyond the long press of the DTC button... Will post mian blog article here when I have a few minutes...

Edit... http://www.onelapx1.com/blog/how-to-...w-actually-fun
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      06-19-2016, 01:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Dealerships will not touch that type of coding as there are liability issues should something happen to you with all the nannies turned off, beyond the long press of the DTC button... Will post mian blog article here when I have a few minutes...

Edit... http://www.onelapx1.com/blog/how-to-...w-actually-fun
Wow, I did t know we had so many driving nannies. While I'm not completely computer illiterate, it looks bit beyond my level of comfort . Guess I'll have to live with the nannies. I have an ATB diff from M factory, I wonder if the e-diff effects it the same way as a mechanical LSD. I did notice that with the DTC button pushed once, this is for street driving, the car gives me a a lot more leeway then before. I can pretty much slide around a corner and the TC doesn't kick in now. Of course I turn it completely off on the track.
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      07-17-2016, 02:29 PM   #13
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So is it oil or brakes? Can't decide from this thread. Having the same issue...sorry, started a new thread. I'm in a 128 with an LSD, standard caliper/rotor and upgraded pads. DTC completely off. Dropping power about half-way thru each session...lasts about 5-10 seconds, then goes normal for a minute or so, then 5-10 seconds, repeat. No dash lights.

I've heard the e-diff really doesn't interfere if the LSD is working, but I'm definitely threshold braking from 130 to 60 and from 95-30 with each lap.

If it is oil, then I suppose I'm looking for cooler addition this coming week.

One more session to go today, I'll try the heater "on" workaround and see if that helps.
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      07-18-2016, 02:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan13 View Post
So is it oil or brakes? Can't decide from this thread. Having the same issue...sorry, started a new thread. I'm in a 128 with an LSD, standard caliper/rotor and upgraded pads. DTC completely off. Dropping power about half-way thru each session...lasts about 5-10 seconds, then goes normal for a minute or so, then 5-10 seconds, repeat. No dash lights.

I've heard the e-diff really doesn't interfere if the LSD is working, but I'm definitely threshold braking from 130 to 60 and from 95-30 with each lap.

If it is oil, then I suppose I'm looking for cooler addition this coming week.

One more session to go today, I'll try the heater "on" workaround and see if that helps.
I saw your thread, and I was going to point you here. Glad you found this. Check my response in post #4... It's everything you need to know on this topic.

There is no point in starting threads and speculating on what's wrong. Get in your car and scan/get logs. Brake overheating will not light up the CEL, but there WILL be a code stored for it. Brake overheating DOES reduce power. So do oil temps above 270f. Scan the car with Carly. You can even use Carly to log your oil temps. That is what will tell you what you need to do next...

If you in an auto the dme might reduce torque if the converter gets too hot. Again, a code should be stored in the dme for this.

Last edited by bNks334; 07-18-2016 at 02:18 PM..
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      08-15-2016, 10:40 AM   #15
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I just did my 1st track day and I had the same thing. After the 1st 15 mins of the first two sessions the car would not go past 5500rpm. No CEL, no brake warning lights, and I had TC half off (first timer here). I let the car cool down between runs and the car ran great for the the start of the sessions. I had some traffic in the 3rd session and had a 4th gear Sunday drive for over a lap and half halfway though the session and the power did not cut out. All of the CAN codes make me think a connector somewhere is jacked up, or a module was freaking out... but I wanted to see if someone else has had these codes on track.

17 codes across 4 different modules. I have tried looking up the codes with little success. I am going to keep digging. I was really hoping to see a brake temp warning or something when I pulled the codes. Coolant temp was at 219 when I pulled off track for the session, no clue what oil temp was at. 85 air temp degrees and I'm running 5w-30 in the car.

If anyone has experienced any of these along with Limp Mode I could use your input. The car drove like a champ in the 3rd session and on the drive home.

They seem to be CAN related or unknown by carly...

ABS / DSC / Brake: Dynamische Stabilitaets Kontrolle / DSC
unknown failure CAN Code: 005E18
Engine torque is not adjustable CAN Code: 005E19
Torque 3 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D356
Torque 2 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D355
Torque 1 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D354
unknown failure Code: 005DEC

Instrument cluster: Instrument cluster / Kombiinstrument
CAN signal fault engine Code: 00A3AD
CAN signal fault engine idle Code: 00A3AE
CAN signal fault cruise control Code: 00A3AF

Heating / AC: Air conditioning / Klimaanlage
CAN message Code: 00E717
CAN message Code: 00E71A
CAN message Code: 00E71B

Fussraummodul /FRM
:unkown failure Code: 00E598
:A clamp 15 is missing Code: 009CAB
:unknown failure Code: 00E59A
:steering angle timeout Code: 00E594
:unkown failure Code: 00E59C
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      08-18-2016, 08:09 PM   #16
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FWIW I just got back from Thunderbolt and noticed no serious loss in power over 5 20 minute sessions on both a 90 and 80 degree F day. 120 mph on the straight and oil temps were approaching 270 in later sessions.

I wish I could log but given I have no cooling upgrades the car ran surprisingly well (at least until I sprung some sort of boost leak at the end of the final session, I think the dv's finally shit the 18 psi bed).
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      05-02-2017, 01:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvb6806 View Post
I just did my 1st track day and I had the same thing. After the 1st 15 mins of the first two sessions the car would not go past 5500rpm. No CEL, no brake warning lights, and I had TC half off (first timer here). I let the car cool down between runs and the car ran great for the the start of the sessions. I had some traffic in the 3rd session and had a 4th gear Sunday drive for over a lap and half halfway though the session and the power did not cut out. All of the CAN codes make me think a connector somewhere is jacked up, or a module was freaking out... but I wanted to see if someone else has had these codes on track.

17 codes across 4 different modules. I have tried looking up the codes with little success. I am going to keep digging. I was really hoping to see a brake temp warning or something when I pulled the codes. Coolant temp was at 219 when I pulled off track for the session, no clue what oil temp was at. 85 air temp degrees and I'm running 5w-30 in the car.

If anyone has experienced any of these along with Limp Mode I could use your input. The car drove like a champ in the 3rd session and on the drive home.

They seem to be CAN related or unknown by carly...

ABS / DSC / Brake: Dynamische Stabilitaets Kontrolle / DSC
unknown failure CAN Code: 005E18
Engine torque is not adjustable CAN Code: 005E19
Torque 3 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D356
Torque 2 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D355
Torque 1 missing message PT-CAN Code: 00D354
unknown failure Code: 005DEC

Instrument cluster: Instrument cluster / Kombiinstrument
CAN signal fault engine Code: 00A3AD
CAN signal fault engine idle Code: 00A3AE
CAN signal fault cruise control Code: 00A3AF

Heating / AC: Air conditioning / Klimaanlage
CAN message Code: 00E717
CAN message Code: 00E71A
CAN message Code: 00E71B

Fussraummodul /FRM
:unkown failure Code: 00E598
:A clamp 15 is missing Code: 009CAB
:unknown failure Code: 00E59A
:steering angle timeout Code: 00E594
:unkown failure Code: 00E59C
Received the exact same codes today. Exact same Issue except that I was not on the track. I was on the way to work in the morning.

I suspect I can start off by replacing the battery (It is officially 6 yrs old, original)
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      05-03-2017, 07:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arciga18 View Post
Received the exact same codes today. Exact same Issue except that I was not on the track. I was on the way to work in the morning.

I suspect I can start off by replacing the battery (It is officially 6 yrs old, original)
After the engine would go into safe mode I would park the car for 40 mins until my next session and everything came back to life... until 15 mins into the next session. I think I was able to longer into the session with all of the nannies off.

I have been trying to find someone to code the nannies out of my car (remote or locally) with no success.

I don't know why yours would kick on w/o TC being very active. Did the car drive normally later in the day?
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      05-03-2017, 07:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvb6806 View Post
After the engine would go into safe mode I would park the car for 40 mins until my next session and everything came back to life... until 15 mins into the next session. I think I was able to longer into the session with all of the nannies off.

I have been trying to find someone to code the nannies out of my car (remote or locally) with no success.

I don't know why yours would kick on w/o TC being very active. Did the car drive normally later in the day?
Yes, the car has been running like a champ ever since. Don't get me wrong I shudder overtime the tranny downshifts but no problems yet (knock on wood).

After the limp mode, I started the car after like 5 minutes and crawled to work (2 minute drive off highway ramp).

Luckily i had my carly adapter in the car. During Lunch I checked for codes / cleared and drove the car hard for 5 minutes behind the warehouse. Checked for codes nothing remarkable.

After work I drove home expecting the worse and nothing happened. The only code I got was a battery management warning thing.

Didn't check today for codes but nothing happened. Will need to read codes with laptop soon. Luckily I can grab the X5 for the next several days so I won't be touching the E90.
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      05-03-2017, 09:22 PM   #20
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Didn't read all of the comments but I had similar issues.

Running the heater on high, replacing the oil solenoids and giving the car a break while in traffic by short-shifting helped alleviate this problem in my 135i. Never experienced an over-heating once I did this.
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      06-04-2017, 01:43 PM   #21
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I usually always short shift to an extent. I always play it a bit on the safe side on track days. I rarely hit 6k RPMS, have never had any overheating issues on my N55 even on the 90 degree days. Oil temps have never been above 270. I haven't run with the heater on yet eith

I have a ATB LSD and not a Mechanical LSD. I have noticed since I got the LSD that my rear pads aren't wearing nearly as bad as when I didn't have an LSD. After a couple of track days my rear pads use to be worn down to 25%. Since I got the LSD they have maybe only worn to 80% on 3 track days. Im going to contact an independent shop tomorrow to see if they can code out the engine power reduction due to the sensing of overheated brakes.

Last edited by jafo1701; 06-04-2017 at 02:02 PM..
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      06-19-2017, 03:43 PM   #22
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So I took my 135i n55 /DCT to thunderbolt yesterday and had similar issues as many in this thread.
Was a hot day 85F high humidity. Was pushing the car very hard as always and was losing power with no warning signs at all.
I have bigger intercooler, cobb tune satge1+ as far as power mods.
Coolant mixed with distilled water 50/50.
Heater was turned on at max speed. TC off completely, stock e diff.
I don't short shift as some of you suggest here, because if I do, I will get run over by fast drivers in advanced/instructor run group.
Now I don't know what is exactly going on, but I did notice that in a cooler weather, lets say no more than 70F, I have no problem at all with power loss or anything else.
My best lap time in april (much cooler conditions) on direzza star spec tires was 1.37.05. Now to compare that time with my best lap time from yesterday-1.37.45.
I was testing my new bridgestones RE71R, and would be running 1.34, if not for fighting with slight power reduction throughout the whole day.
These tires are amazing. I was able to take corners at speed I would never imagine was possible on street tires.
So any suggestions how to deal with my issue?
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