Modified 128i vs E46 M3

[ChiBimmer]

3L straight six is a totally different animal to the S65. S65 is my favourite engine from BMW, but I wouldn't really want to own one at this time I think.

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Also, E9x M3 is too big. Now. S65 in a 1er, you're singing my song.

I have a little car, a Honda S2000 which I'm keeping. The bigness and luxury of the E90 has its pluses for days when I want that. Most days I drive the S2000.

Someone did put an S65 in an E82.

[desertman123]

Originally Posted by Rmtt

I can't wait until I can say that. I'm slowly getting there. Rear diff done, tune ordered from BPC for my 3SI to go on.....then I will do my headers and tune upgrade.

Lastly have my Milvs here, but I will probably drive to BPC and have them do the install and knock out the VCG for preventative maintenance....then let them do a custom dyno tune.

I bet your car is night and day different between stock and FBO!

Very soon for you!

I need to do suspension now, I got springs&shocks but not control arms/sway bars etc.

You'll LOVE how the car will continue to transform. Each mod will have you saying "why wasn't it like this from factory?"

Biggest thing I noticed when I drive my friend's car (now it isn't stock, 3IM + Euro IAT/tune) was the power for the stock car felt very linear, while my car I felt I built more power the closer I got to redline (which makes sense with the headers scavenging and MILVS increasing lift as a % rather than fixed amount)

[markslc1]

Originally Posted by ChiBimmer

Do you have a build thread or list of mods?

Suspension
- Koni Yellow SA shocks
- H&R sport springs
- dinan camber plates
- M3 front control/arms up front
- Whiteline RSFB inserts in rear

Power
- 3 stage intake
- AA tune
- Modded stock airbox with updated elbow pipe
- BMW PE

Cosmetic
- Style 264 wheels
- 1M rep front bumper
- Rep BMW performance spoiler
- Blackline tail lights
- smoked 3rd brake light overlay

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by desertman123

Very soon for you!

I need to do suspension now, I got springs&shocks but not control arms/sway bars etc.

You'll LOVE how the car will continue to transform. Each mod will have you saying "why wasn't it like this from factory?"

Biggest thing I noticed when I drive my friend's car (now it isn't stock, 3IM + Euro IAT/tune) was the power for the stock car felt very linear, while my car I felt I built more power the closer I got to redline (which makes sense with the headers scavenging and MILVS increasing lift as a % rather than fixed amount)

Sounds right up my alley! It also makes sense as you probably ended up making about an additional 40hp/20tq to the wheels. That coupled with the steeper gears makes for a nice feel I bet.

Don't know if I seen you mention it, but we're your MILVS part of the 1st batch.....or the 2nd run where he increased the lift?

I got my wheels finally put on yesterday. Between what I've read on the net for stock wheels with the tires I had....I should see about 40+lbs of rotational weight savings.

Plus my car came with the M Suspension....so I like the ride height. So I installed an M3 front swaybar yesterday. I think after that I will do soild bushings in the sub-frame....and call it a day.

[chris_flies]

Originally Posted by Rmtt

Sounds right up my alley! It also makes sense as you probably ended up making about an additional 40hp/20tq to the wheels. That coupled with the steeper gears makes for a nice feel I bet.

Don't know if I seen you mention it, but we're your MILVS part of the 1st batch.....or the 2nd run where he increased the lift?

I got my wheels finally put on yesterday. Between what I've read on the net for stock wheels with the tires I had....I should see about 40+lbs of rotational weight savings.

Plus my car came with the M Suspension....so I like the ride height. So I installed an M3 front swaybar yesterday. I think after that I will do soild bushings in the sub-frame....and call it a day.

Solid subframe bushings are a FANTASTIC way to go. I like my Condor Speed Shop UHMW bushings (delrin/nylon). Easy to install once you've taken out the stock bushings (rent the tool from hpashop.com). No change in NVH, with a vast improvement in overall handling cohesiveness. I do regret changing the diff bushings, though, it's woefully noisy. I'd do a lockdown bracket instead if I were to do it again.

I want stock-like ride height so I don't have to drive in fear of scraping, bottoming-out, etc. It looks great while low, but my car isn't even remotely about looks It's all about affordable (ish) functionality. Some Ohlins coilovers are the next big item for me...

Originally Posted by ChiBimmer

Someone did put an S65 in an E82.

Child's play. Someone else put an S85 in an E82. There's even a supercharged V10 hatchback running around...

*Maniacally laughs in rod bearings*

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by chris_flies

Solid subframe bushings are a FANTASTIC way to go. I like my Condor Speed Shop UHMW bushings (delrin/nylon). Easy to install once you've taken out the stock bushings (rent the tool from hpashop.com). No change in NVH, with a vast improvement in overall handling cohesiveness. I do regret changing the diff bushings, though, it's woefully noisy. I'd do a lockdown bracket instead if I were to do it again.

I want stock-like ride height so I don't have to drive in fear of scraping, bottoming-out, etc. It looks great while low, but my car isn't even remotely about looks It's all about affordable (ish) functionality. Some Ohlins coilovers are the next big item for me...



Child's play. Someone else put an S85 in an E82. There's even a supercharged V10 hatchback running around...

*Maniacally laughs in rod bearings*

Thanks for the recommendation. I will definitely look into it. I know the 28mm sway bar made a nice difference on some wide sweeping curves we have near me. Turn-in feels more planted.

I think rear subframe solid bushings will be plenty for me as I like the way it sits now as you do with yours!

[Ryan13]

Are we talking about track setup or street? I currently have a 128 and e46 M3 set up for track. The 128i has everything (suspension, 3.73 LSD, AA headers and exhaust, DISA, tune, clutch and flywheel upgrade, some M3 suspension bits, and square wheels). Probably some stuff I’m forgetting. Stock brakes.

The M3 has stock everything but a half cage and upgraded suspension. No engine work, but it is an SMG (that is what she wanted).

The 128i is a great car with low running costs. It is good for the lower run groups. But it cannot keep up with the cars and drivers in the upper run groups. HP comes pretty cheap these days. The M3 has a much better HP and TQ profile and the extra it provides over the 128 is very noticeable.

Feel wise, they weigh about the same and they are fairly close in weight distribution. The car rotated around you...as opposed to my Z4M coupe that you sit further back. I think if you put an S54 in the 128, it would feel like an e46. But the 128 is wanting for a little more HP and TQ, even with the upgrades.

[gds52]

I can chime in with my recent experience.
I've been driving Z4M coupe for over 2+ years. Some track Days...I was hitting cornering limits with stock suspension setup.

After test driving 4 differently setup e36 M3's...I found my perfect car...Track ready 128i. Bought it from a forum member...it has everything done on the suspension and LSD...but stock engine and 6MT.
And yes...better track tires than the Z4M...the 128i was way more faster on the track because it goes around corners way faster...and one track which I did...I was hitting same top speed as compared to the Z....power wise I never felt 128i underpowered on the Track.

[jonwilli]

Originally Posted by gds52

I can chime in with my recent experience.
I've been driving Z4M coupe for over 2+ years. Some track Days...I was hitting cornering limits with stock suspension setup.

After test driving 4 differently setup e36 M3's...I found my perfect car...Track ready 128i. Bought it from a forum member...it has everything done on the suspension and LSD...but stock engine and 6MT.
And yes...better track tires than the Z4M...the 128i was way more faster on the track because it goes around corners way faster...and one track which I did...I was hitting same top speed as compared to the Z....power wise I never felt 128i underpowered on the Track.

Is the 128i track car running standard power or does it have a remap and 3 stage intake etc?

[gds52]

Originally Posted by jonwilli

Is the 128i track car running standard power or does it have a remap and 3 stage intake etc?

It does have some basic tune.
Most interior in the back is stripped and weighs around 3000lbs

[JM98]

Realistically, I think that a FBO 1 Series with suspension will run circles around a similar M3 and be more modern and reliable all day. BUT... its not an M car so you'll never get that "prestige factor" if its important to you.

[chris82]

I've driven both back to back. Biggest thing I noticed is the Engine and Brakes, handling was nothing special but it did feel very balanced and capable stock. The s54 feels so much more alive than the N51/52 which feels like it falls asleep at times. Instant throttle response, 8000 rpms to play with and another 100hp more than the stock N52. Performance wise, it's a significantly better engine than the N52. I think the downside would be reliability and repair cost which is what is currently keeping me from buying one!

I think the E82 is a better platform in general, just look at the areas the E46 M3 needs reinforcement such as the subframe, rear upper shock mounts and front upper strut tower. None of these issues have ever been reported on the E8x/E9x chassis.

[Mark Aubele]

Originally Posted by JM98

Realistically, I think that a FBO 1 Series with suspension will run circles around a similar M3 and be more modern and reliable all day. BUT... its not an M car so you'll never get that "prestige factor" if its important to you.

No, it won't. Certainly not a 128i, let's be real here.

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by Mark Aubele

No, it won't. Certainly not a 128i, let's be real here.

I've owned both. Reliability wise, the 128i will definitely be better. Performance wise....a FBO 128i is fun and makes a huge difference, but I don't think competitively it would run circles around the E46 M3.

My M3 surprised me as I wasn't expecting the type of performance it produced. And this is coming from a guy who has always had a built Corvette of one type or another in the garage.

With my M3, I trounced 370Z's, 1998 and 2001 Mustang Cobras, and even the first generation Hemi Chargers.

It surprised the hell out of me!

[JM98]

Originally Posted by Mark Aubele

No, it won't. Certainly not a 128i, let's be real here.

It's a drivers race between the two. I think we get caught up in .2 seconds on a road course and think its end all be all in performance. For 99% of what someone is looking for, the 1 will fit the bill. If you are looking for that extra bit of performance, I doubt a 128 is even in the conversation.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by JM98

Realistically, I think that a FBO 1 Series with suspension will run circles around a similar M3 and be more modern and reliable all day. BUT... its not an M car so you'll never get that "prestige factor" if its important to you.

The 128i's downfall, if we're comparing it to the M3, is the N52. With headers, tune, intake, and exhaust you're looking at 275 hp max. The M3 has 333hp and an 8k rpm redline stock......

Brakes, suspension, diff, can all be upgraded, but the N52 has it's power output limitations.

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by chris82

The 128i's downfall, if we're comparing it to the M3, is the N52. With headers, tune, intake, and exhaust you're looking at 275 hp max. The M3 has 333hp and an 8k rpm redline stock......

Brakes, suspension, diff, can all be upgraded, but the N52 has it's power output limitations.

Exactly. I remember the first time driving mine...looked down to shift...and still had another 1500 rpm left. Car pulled extremely hard right to redline. Felt almost like I was riding my bike again.

And god forbid you got you hit a perfect launch with it. Mine was a 6 speed and if you hit the RPM's just right and feathered it, 3 gears in and most people never knew what hit them!

Just something about the HP and TQ curve. I would have been nervous lining up besides one in any of my Corvettes as I knew I would blow the tires off the Vette before finally catching the "M".

[gixracer]

Welp her goes my my opinion.
128 FBO and suspension-
Great overall car but lacks in the motor department. If you have a slicktop it’s about 3000 lbs and 265hp at the crank. Great time at the track with a 245 square setup. They are more stable than what people claim them to be.

E46 M3
Let that motor sing the chassis rotates differently than an E82 and you can yours the brakes to get t to turn. The motor is much better than a tuned N52.( no duh)

1M. Turbos! and wider tires than 135 .... you get the point more grip

1M + S65 you get the sound, the powah, the whole twitchyness, the whole enchilada. I cant wait to let mine loose on the track. I have a feeling that it will push my abilities to be consistent.

There is an elevation in price going down the list. There are differ skill sets needed to drive vet each one fast. Drive the socks off a 128 at your local tack within 0.2-0.5 seconds a lap then you can/ should move up to the next car.

My 2 cents

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by gixracer

Welp her goes my my opinion.
128 FBO and suspension-
Great overall car but lacks in the motor department. If you have a slicktop it’s about 3000 lbs and 265hp at the crank. Great time at the track with a 245 square setup. They are more stable than what people claim them to be.

E46 M3
Let that motor sing the chassis rotates differently than an E82 and you can yours the brakes to get t to turn. The motor is much better than a tuned N52.( no duh)

1M. Turbos! and wider tires than 135 .... you get the point more grip

1M + S65 you get the sound, the powah, the whole twitchyness, the whole enchilada. I cant wait to let mine loose on the track. I have a feeling that it will push my abilities to be consistent.

There is an elevation in price going down the list. There are differ skill sets needed to drive vet each one fast. Drive the socks off a 128 at your local tack within 0.2-0.5 seconds a lap then you can/ should move up to the next car.



My 2 cents

I may be wrong, but I think with FBO....depending on drivetrain loss..lets say 16% you are at almost 290hp at the crank. Just the N52 with the 3SI variant was rated at almost 265 crank HP.

Then add Headers and Milvs...I've seen Dynos at 250whp. Now DT loss may be more than 16%...but that is 290 Crank.

Not trying to argue....but it's still a little bit more than 265hp.

But still nothing like you are planning!!!

[N54Yankee]

I’m not a big fan of measuring Dyno numbers. Want to know how much power a car is laying down? Put it on a strip and run it. The trap speed calls all bluffs and a great equalizer.
Unfortunately you seldom see 128 times for whatever reason.

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

I’m not a big fan of measuring Dyno numbers. Want to know how much power a car is laying down? Put it on a strip and run it. The trap speed calls all bluffs and a great equalizer.
Unfortunately you seldom see 128 times for whatever reason.

Unfortunately that's because we aren't putting down any numbers we would want to post!

Don't get me wrong.....it's a very fun car to drive....But not in a straight line.

All we have around here are 1/8 mile tracks. My last C6Z put down very low 7's spinning all the way down the track. But I did model my build on a car from NJ that was one of the first to crack 9's in the 1/4 on the Corvette forum. He had a nasty car....and they have very good air up there!

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

I’m not a big fan of measuring Dyno numbers. Want to know how much power a car is laying down? Put it on a strip and run it. The trap speed calls all bluffs and a great equalizer.
Unfortunately you seldom see 128 times for whatever reason.

Also....its not fair that you got two bad ass cars to choose from!

I would have got a 135i as a DD, but got spooked from reading into things probably a little too much.