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03-27-2017, 01:09 PM | #1 |
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Road Racers, What oils do you run in your 135i?
Hi ladies and gents. I've been snooping around the forums for awhile looking for recommendations on what engine oils to run for road racing enthusiasts. I've seen a lot of threads on oils for normal and spirited drivers but nothing in detail about road racing suggestions. Seeing extended periods of heavy loads and high oil temps really puts a beating on engine oil.
Most threads for general use seem to point to BMW-LL01 versions of Mobil 1, Castrol, or European Castrols. A buddy runs Liqui Moly in his E92 M3 at the track and I saw someone running their 4200 top tec in a 135i but thats only rated for BMW-LL04. I think I saw a Shell Rotella T5/6 too but all the research is kind of merging together in my brain. I personally run Shell Rotella dino oil in my 3000GT VR4 and E36 M3 on the track and its works great. However there is going to be a difference in engine technologies between the 90s and 2010s hence I'm asking what you guys run in your 135i's at the track. I picked up a 2013 135is 6mt and will probably do 3-4 track days a year on it as well as nice weather daily driver. I'm planning to change the oil more often than the BMW recommendation. I'll keep power stock to see how well it handles heat but I expect to see some high oil temps but maybe it won't be so bad because its an N55 (I keep reading the N54 likes to get hot). I regularly see 280F in the 3000GT during the summer months and change the oil after each weekend because its cheap insurance. I typically run 20-30 minute sessions in advanced groups and I'd like to think I'm a somewhat competent driver. I haven't researched MT and differential fluid but if your willing to add to those it would be appreciated. Thanks Dan |
03-27-2017, 05:32 PM | #2 |
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There are can be significant variances in oil formulations within a brand. The LiquiMoly marketed to the US/Canada (2041), and found at your local store, is not the same as the LiquiMoly found on the Shelf elsewhere (2332 LL-01 approved). Same as Castrol Edge (regular vs yellow "European formula" badge). Basically, be informed before you just go buying something.
Redline 5-30 is a good suggestion, IMO. I'd take it over Liqui Moly 2332. I wouldn't even consider putting Rotella T6 into my car. T6 is a very thick oil formulated for diesel engines. T5 would be closer to what is spec'd for our engines weight wise, but it still falls short in many areas (NOACK is over 12%) which is probably why it isn't LL-01 approved. I will always defer my recommendation to Castrol Edge LL-01 though. It is one of the cheapest oils out there ($25 per 5Qt jug at walmart) and it's available ON THE SHELF at your local store. Best bang for your buck oil and is proven to hold up well through UOA's. Are there better oils out there? YES, but they are more expensive and/or harder to find. There will be little to no difference between any of these oils in the real world (all LL-01 approved):
Highest I've seen my N55 get on track is 27x (20min session in 90f heat). I run distilled water+water wetter during the summer. That is borderline time for an upgraded oil cooler. Transmission fluid (6MT): This has been a taboo area. The recommended fluid has changed over the years and generations so you get a lot of mixed opinions. Redline used to call for D6 ATF for the N55/1M. The recommendation has since changed back to D4... Some people even put 1Qt Redline D6 atf mixed with 1Qt Redline MTF. This supposedly adds some gear protection into the mix and thickens up the thin D6 fluid. I personally swapped my fluid to 2Qts. D6 ATF. The thinner fluid is supposedly better for a dual purpose car that sees frequent winter driving/shifting. Next time I am going to try the D4+MTF. Differential fluid: 2 Qts. Redline 75W90 GL-5 Gear Oil Last edited by bNks334; 03-27-2017 at 05:48 PM.. |
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03-27-2017, 11:42 PM | #3 |
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No scientific input on comparing oils but euro formula LL-01 0W-40 Castrol has been my go to for every OC yet on my 135i, lower viscosity for all year use. 20k so far and typically only 1 quart of consumption between 5k OCIs, most of the miles done beyond 16 psi. No consumption over 160 minutes of track use, oil temps reaching 270. I have no undertray which I believe attributes to my lower temps vs N54s belonging to friends.
I hate the D6 in my trans, feels as notchy as the fluid that came out but my transmission is different from the ones bolted onto the N55. Will be changing to a real MTF.
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03-28-2017, 11:33 AM | #4 |
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I was looking into trying Motuls 300V 5w30 this season. A lot of opinions on this topic and very long threads especially a "10 chapter" write up on ferrarichat that was very interesting and eye opening.
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03-28-2017, 01:03 PM | #5 |
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Thanks for bringing that up! Chapter 1 is something EVERYONE should read.
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03-28-2017, 01:34 PM | #6 | |
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There really is not any difference between "gas" and "diesel" oils anymore. Have tried Redline, D4, D6 and MTF and the latest OE BMW fluid. I recommend Redline MTF for the trans, unless you are driving it in the winter. Takes a couple thousand km before it feels good though. Last edited by MightyMouseTech; 03-28-2017 at 01:44 PM.. |
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03-28-2017, 01:46 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for the information guys.
I was actually researching the Liqui Moly 4200T PN 2004. Its hard to find much information but i'm hunting around bob is the oil guy. I looked at the other two and they seem more geared towards long life intervals than a "heavier duty" oil. There is so much information on that website and trying to compare oils apples to apples can take a lot of time so I was leaning on the racers here to see what they had determined worked well for them. I know any oil with LL-01 should be fine for the engine but I'd like to get a better one that will have better protection while racing. There is obviously a balance in price vs protection and then marketing messes up the whole algorithm. I plan to change the oil twice a year or more if I think it needs it. I can adjust to the colder months by running a 0 weight oil too. It looks like Pennzoil changed the name of their Ultra Euro formula and I can get it locally at Advance Auto. I don't think this is the L version which does not carry the LL-01 certification. http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/p...=pennzoil+5w40 I'm open to ordering oils too as I will order filters online anyways. The Motul 8100 looks good too and is a comparable price. I'd have to look into 300V and my initial thought is would it have the additive packages to handle longer change intervals than race cars get? Got a link handy to that ferraichat thread? Another night of reading to come. |
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03-28-2017, 02:16 PM | #8 |
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03-28-2017, 02:52 PM | #9 | ||
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03-28-2017, 07:16 PM | #10 | |
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Did you read the 10 chapter oil guide on ferrari chat? Sae scale tells you nothing, which is why the ll-01 standard exists. No, T6 is not a good oil for our engines and shell will tell you that themselves. I didn't say to use T5 either. I said T5 was closer to the weight specd for our engines, which has nothing to do with sae rating and has everything to do with the dynamic viscosity range called for by the ll-01 spec. Also, 5w40 motul means nothing. There are 30different types of motul oils. I expect better from you. Fact of the matter is you can use just about any engine oil and the car will still run just fine. Very few people actually care to look at the effect on oil temperature and pressure. This is especially true in our community where people care more about how many psi of boost they have. That doesn't mean the oil is ideal. Thicker oil <> better oil. Last edited by bNks334; 03-28-2017 at 07:37 PM.. |
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03-28-2017, 07:39 PM | #11 |
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IF an oil has a BMW LL-4 rating... it also meets BMW LL-1 rating. BUT not the other way around!
Personally I would stick to the "big name" oils like Castrol or Shell. A German friend of mine(who is a car guy) says that LiqiMolly isn't that good of an oil. That's just what he tells me... but in the US it is known to be a "good" oil. Go figure. Regardless of what ever oil you are using... you probably will want to change out your crankshaft and rod bearings every season for a track'd car. At least that is what Manhart Racing told me they recommend. They also said for track'd cars... they use Castrol TWS 10w60 oil in 135i's and 1M's. Even though its NOT approved by BMW to do so. Like I said... I would stick to running 0w40/5w30 LL1 oil in my car. Also since your tracking your car... I would also be changing the engine oil after each track weekend. And also all the other fluids like: brake & trans and diff fluids after a few HPDE events.
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03-28-2017, 11:29 PM | #12 | |
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It should not be used in areas where the fuel contains high sulfur content as low SAPS oils have significantly lower TBN rating. In theory a low SAPS oil should result in longer catalytic converter life (and therefore reduce emissions in the long term) particularly if your car consumes/burns oil. ll01 oils are fine to use anywhere, ll04 oils are only to be used in countries with low sulfur fuel. I dare say depending on driving style and actual fuel sulfur content along with an adjusted oil change interval ll04 can be also used globally (i.e if you're doing 10k intervals vs 25k km recommended and oil regularly gets to temp). my 3 picks for oils: redline 5w40 - group V/VI - very high HTHS rating motul xcess 5w40 - group IV liquimoly 5w40 ll01 - excellent additive package, I believe still a group 3 though. all of the above oils I'd have no issue running for 10k km Street use with occasional track days. |
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03-29-2017, 10:45 AM | #13 |
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Have actually been looking at the Shell Helix Ultra (Pennzoil Platinum Euro), which is BMW OE oil now. BMW actually carries a 0W40 LL-01 Turbo Power Oil.
Interesting, Shell or Pennzoil do not market that specific combo. Wish I could find specs for it. |
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03-29-2017, 03:32 PM | #14 | |
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Pennzoil Platinum Ultra Euro 5w40 is NOT the same formula as the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 that I recommended above. The Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 has a NOACK of 6.8% and a cP of 3.88. That is the one of the best combinations of heat resistance and shear stability I have seen of any LL-01 oil. http://oilmart.com/data/products/pds...ro%205W-40.pdf https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JMCCBXG...ing=UTF8&psc=1 Pennzoil Platinum Euro in comparison has a higher NOACK at 11% and a lower cP of 3.68. https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.ne...0906031757.pdf https://www.amazon.com/Pennzoil-5500...tra+Euro+5w-40 Now consider Redlines offerings, or, some of the other oils already listed... The Redline 5w30 is also a good choice at cP 3.7 and NOACK 6%. Redline's 5w-40 is even more appealing, but it makes me question whether Redline's oils are actually LL-01 approved or are they are just "recommended for?” Redline's 5w-40 is way thicker (dynamic viscosity of 4.4) than any other LL-01 oil... Seems out of place to still be an LL-01 approved oil with how much thicker it is than every other LL-01 oil. https://www.redlineoil.com/content/f...PDS%205-13.pdf Amsoils 5w40 has a cP of 3.7 and a NOACK of 8.7%: https://www.thebestoil.com/wp-conten...5/06/g3079.pdf Motul x-cess 5w40 has a cP of 3.7 and a NOACK of 11% I've read??? https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...pdf?1490017031 Compare all the above to a much cheaper and more readily available Castrol Edge Euro 0w-30. It has a NOACK of 8.3% and a cP 3.5. The 0w-40 ("thicker" oil) is less appealing with its higher NOACK % and the same 3.5 cP!!! http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/66FB02D7403DC08780257FA7004CEF87/$File/BPXE-A9TNQ9.pdf Personally, I think you guys are thinking into this WAYYYY too much. If you really think you need a thicker oil for a 20-30 minute track session, the question you need to be able to answer is what quality of the oil do you think you need to improve? The reason I list cP and NOACK for each oil above is because those are the two values that I would be most concerned with for track use. The engine will see higher sustained load and rpms on track. The concern here would be maintaining bearing lubrication (cP). Engine oil temperatures will also increase causing excessive evaporative loss (NOACK). It's completely unrealistic to think any ll-01 oil will shear enough in 80-120 minutes to require changing it... people don't spin bearings on track because of thin oil and viscosity loss. They spin bearings because of oil starvation. Running thicker oil is going to cause more issues than gain in that regard. Last edited by bNks334; 03-29-2017 at 10:27 PM.. |
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03-29-2017, 06:15 PM | #15 | |
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03-29-2017, 06:23 PM | #16 |
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The oil industry is retardedly confusing.
It looks like I posted a pennzoil platinum euro 5w-40 spec sheet from May 2009. The latest pennzoil platinum euro 5w-40 appears to be a much better formula using the new pureplus technology. It had a cP of 3.6 and NOACK of 6.2%, per some unknown source on bitog. The official spec sheet does not list cP or Noack so verify this info. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...05Rj9nFHLOEEBg Pennzoil platinum euro looks pretty damn good if the info is true: "Here is what I got from my SOPUS contact, pertaining to the current version of PPE 5w-40: Quote: HT/HS viscosity: 3.6 mPa.s @150C (typical) by ASTM D4693 NOACK: 6.2% (typical) by ASTM 5800" https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...num_Euro_5W-40 |
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03-30-2017, 07:47 AM | #17 | |
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http://www.pennzoil.com/en_ca/produc...inum-euro.html It is also very confusing when you list the "cP spec", that is just a unit of measure, centipoise, you are actually talking about the HTHS (High Temp High Shear) spec. And as you say, the HTHS is very important for track duty. My car is also a daily driver, and temps in the spring/fall can be below freezing, so for me, the Kinematic Viscosity at 40C is also very important, the lower the better for wear during cold starts. Ideally would like something around 60 cSt, which is why I am trying to find the specs for the 0W40 LL-01 BMW oil. Last edited by MightyMouseTech; 03-30-2017 at 07:57 AM.. |
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03-30-2017, 08:06 AM | #18 |
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[QUOTE=Dackelone;21486679
Regardless of what ever oil you are using... you probably will want to change out your crankshaft and rod bearings every season for a track'd car. At least that is what Manhart Racing told me they recommend. They also said for track'd cars... they use Castrol TWS 10w60 oil in 135i's and 1M's. Even though its NOT approved by BMW to do so.[/QUOTE] Interesting that Castrol 10w-60 was recommended. That's what I use in both our LS3 engine which makes about 590 horsepower and our Ford Barra 4.0 litre with makes about 605 horsepower. The 10w-60 is a lot heavier than recommend by both manufacturers |
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03-30-2017, 11:31 AM | #19 | |
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All tribology data I've seen would recommend using the SAME weight oil as recommended but changing it more frequently since it's being run under higher loads. |
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03-30-2017, 12:12 PM | #20 |
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Well, if it is strictly a racecar, you want to choose an oil that will have the proper running viscosity for the oil temps you will be seeing. The higher the temp, the thinner the oil will be. If you are continuously at much higher temps than normal, good chance you will want to run a higher viscosity oil.
Ferrari recommends 5W40 for street use and 10W60 for track use right in the owners manual. |
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03-30-2017, 01:05 PM | #21 | |||
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Redline's 5w-30 CCS of 6000 cP at -30 while the Pennzoil platinum Euro 5w-40 is 6300 cP (reference links above). I am bullish on the Redline 5w-30 as the oil's 11.9 cSt will allow it to flow better through the engine despite the higher shear resistance and dynamic viscosity (3.7 HTHS cP). The lower CCS rating and pour point also means it will be thinner on startup and have better pumability for better cold start protection. I just couldn't justify the $100 per oil change price tag vs the Castrol Edge $35 price tag lol... I'd rather just change my oil 1k miles sooner. There is 0 chance any ll-01 oil is going to permanently shear on track, even after multiple events, to cause significant enough viscosity loss to prevent a proper oil wedge from forming at the bearing (low oil pressure). Having the lower NOACK % would be my main concern since turbo (and tuning) = more heat = more evaporative loss and blow-by. That evaporative loss is going to have a larger influence on the oils overall capacity than the minimal amount of shear that might occur. Choose an oil with a higher HTHS (4.), but with a higher NOACK% like 12%, and it's just going to break down to a 3.7 HTHS oil very quickly as the modifiers burn off. The amount of viscosity loss seen through UOA's of LL-01 oils, even after track days and thousands of miles of road use, is single digits. That single digit loss translates out to fractions of a percent of "protection" when you look at say a 3.5 HTHS oil shearing down to a 3.3 HTHS oil over 5k miles. I just don't see it as a valid concern unless you're doing 24hour lemans style racing lol... Quote:
This is also why no-one here can recommend running a thicker oil on a FACTUAL basis. No one has run a thicker oil on track and recorded data to see what happens to oil pressure. This season I'll be sure to watch oil pressure as oil temps climb and I'll be sure to switch to a thicker oil if I notice oil pressure dropping throughout an HPDE event... The problem I foresee is that the N55 has an electronically controlled oil pump which will probably mask any oil viscosity and pressure issues... Last edited by bNks334; 03-30-2017 at 02:43 PM.. |
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04-01-2017, 12:54 PM | #22 |
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through my searching I came across this website thats seems to have a lot of good info on oil with a ranking list.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/ |
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