Some thoughts about water pump failure

[E91WAG3N]

Great discussion in here!

I added a water pump to my next parts order list. For me, I don't see the benefit in delaying a $500 cost until a breakdown.

With all the opinions thus far, the common consensus is the water pump will fail at some point. Whether it will result in a warped head and a big mess as with previous BMW 6 cyl designs remains to be seen.

I suppose I'm at a point in my life and a location (Las Vegas) where I'd rather take care of it in my garage on a Saturday afternoon of my choosing rather than waiting for it to implode when it feels like it, who knows if that will be in another 100 miles for 10,000 miles or even another 100,000. It's time for a coolant flush anyways so may as well!

I've already taken care of several of the more common 1er issues including OFHG, coils, and DMTL pump, and ESS gasket. I figure if I knock out the water pump my car should be pretty bulletproof for a while. I'll just wait for the valve cover gasket to start weeping and start tackling the suspension.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by Esteban

^^ This ^^

I think me and my water pump will be ok... for now... (frantically biting fingernails) lol

Parts break and then you get new ones. Wont be the end of the world.

At less than 35,000 miles I think I should be fine for a good while longer.

But we'll see...

If my memory serves, I think the life of electric pumps are based on hours of operation, not miles driven or age of vehicle. So, with such low miles, the likelihood of failure is low (as long as the cooling system is in good condition, and the amount of idle time is not huge).

[Gray_Panther]

Reading through this thread makes me want to drive my 1er. Too bad its stored for the winter. Next spring I will perform a coolant flush.

I heard that flushing your coolant every 4-5 years (or 50k) miles should extend the life of the waterpump.

Edit: I am more inclined to believe waterpump life depends more on hours of operation.

[mackeroni]

In the above posts I am reading several theories about the cause of water pump failure. I think these are the most popular.

1. Age of pump
2. Miles driven on pump
3. How hard car has been driven with or w/o a special tune
4. How long the engine has been running including idling
5. Composite impeller blades
6. Thermoplastic impeller blades

Did I miss anything? Anyway... I would like to propose a new theory.

7. Number of heat-cool cycles the pump goes through.

I do not know what kind of plastic material is used to make the impeller blades, but I read that some thermosetting plastics become more brittle when exposed to multiple heat-cool cycles. Can anyone improve my understanding of the plastic used to make our water pump impellers and the associated chemical bonding properties of that plastic?

Also, is it possible that the number of heat-cool cycles could affect water pump bearing life to a great degree?

Just curious about the true cause of water pump failure. Not that we can change the number of heat-cool cycles, but at least we can use that measure as an indicator of whether a pump should be changed out preemptively.

Thank you... Peace... Mack

[02Pilot]

Someone really needs to do a root cause failure analysis on one of these. I kind of wish I'd saved mine so I could take it apart to look for traces of wear (mine didn't fail, but was replaced preemptively), but I don't have enough hours in the day as it is.

[1and1]

Seems like a contributing factor would be system maintenance- like coolant flush for example.

With both lubrication effects and the anti-scale attributes of coolant I can't help but think flushing in some fresh fluid every 24-ish months would help extend pump lifespan.

[spellbmw]

Just this week, my 2010 135i needed to have the water pump replaced today at nearly 125,000 miles. Fortunately, it was at the dealership and had just had the intakes sandblasted with walnut shells when after the mechanic test drove it, the water pump started throwing errors. My SA was surprised that my car had not had either the sandblasting or the water pump replaced at 125,000 miles.

[Esteban]

I just remembered my Dinan tune and its effect on the water pump. It says on their website "water pump speed increased, to improve cooling," so it will likely shorten the life of the water pump. I guess I gotta pay if I wanna play. Worth it to me anyway.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by spellbmw

Just this week, my 2010 135i needed to have the water pump replaced today at nearly 125,000 miles. Fortunately, it was at the dealership and had just had the intakes sandblasted with walnut shells when after the mechanic test drove it, the water pump started throwing errors. My SA was surprised that my car had not had either the sandblasting or the water pump replaced at 125,000 miles.

Luck was on your side! And that's a lot of miles on the same water pump. Must've had a healthy one.

[spellbmw]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Luck was on your side! And that's a lot of miles on the same water pump. Must've had a healthy one.

Yes, it was a lot of mileage on the original pump; equal to five times around the planet's circumference.

[mackeroni]

Originally Posted by spellbmw

Just this week, my 2010 135i needed to have the water pump replaced today at nearly 125,000 miles. Fortunately, it was at the dealership and had just had the intakes sandblasted with walnut shells when after the mechanic test drove it, the water pump started throwing errors. My SA was surprised that my car had not had either the sandblasting or the water pump replaced at 125,000 miles.

Since you made 125,000 miles on the original pump, can you lend credence to either of these theories of longevity, that changing the coolant frequently or putting the pump through fewer heat-cool cycles somehow protects it from failure?

Or do you possess some magic juju that protects your car from mechanical breakdown?

[mackeroni]

Originally Posted by ubersteuer

Great discussion in here!

I added a water pump to my next parts order list. For me, I don't see the benefit in delaying a $500 cost until a breakdown.

With all the opinions thus far, the common consensus is the water pump will fail at some point. Whether it will result in a warped head and a big mess as with previous BMW 6 cyl designs remains to be seen.

I suppose I'm at a point in my life and a location (Las Vegas) where I'd rather take care of it in my garage on a Saturday afternoon of my choosing rather than waiting for it to implode when it feels like it, who knows if that will be in another 100 miles for 10,000 miles or even another 100,000. It's time for a coolant flush anyways so may as well!

I've already taken care of several of the more common 1er issues including OFHG, coils, and DMTL pump, and ESS gasket. I figure if I knock out the water pump my car should be pretty bulletproof for a while. I'll just wait for the valve cover gasket to start weeping and start tackling the suspension.

I agree, $500 is not the end of the world, so why not just change out the water pump? That sounds great for a capable and well equipped DIY guy, but this job is bigger than this old guy wants to tackle at home without a lift. For guys like me, its more of a $1,000+ job out of pocket. That is some serious beer and pizza money, so it deserves some serious consideration.

Additionally, I think we have plenty of anecdotal evidence to know what happens when our water pumps fail while driving. Our 1-series are smarter than us, in that they quickly go into limp mode when overheating occurs. This is to protect the engine from serious damage and I think it accomplishes that very well.

Let us know how the DIY pump replacement goes!

Peace... Mack

[spellbmw]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Approaching 90k on my original pump. Gonna wait til it fails. Kinda curious at this point to be honest.

That said... I think it may have something to do with coolant contamination.

Just had mine original water pump replaced at nearly 125,000 miles.

[spellbmw]

Originally Posted by mackeroni

Since you made 125,000 miles on the original pump, can you lend credence to either of these theories of longevity, that changing the coolant frequently or putting the pump through fewer heat-cool cycles somehow protects it from failure?

Or do you possess some magic juju that protects your car from mechanical breakdown?

No juju and no frequent coolant changes or fewer heat-cool cycles. I always started and stopped it consistently: let it warm up until it dropped below 1000 rpm and then gradually let it warm up the first five miles. In the evening, I always let it idle for about 30 seconds in the garage before closing the door; longer on hot days. Other than that, just regular maintenance as-need either as condition-based service or a few larger items: all injectors had to be replaced & BMW reimbursed me for it completely, a minor oil leak, had to do the turbos at about 100,000 miles. That's it thus far. All things wear out, including life, so enjoy the ride and the journey while you have both.

[mackeroni]

Originally Posted by spellbmw

Just had mine original water pump replaced at nearly 125,000 miles.

Got me thinking... How many sets of tires did you have to buy to make 125,000 miles? Three, four, five?

[germ]

1. Get towing from your insurance company
2. When it fails, there's no warning
3. Be prepared and know where you want to have your car towed. Have a trusted mechanic, possible an indie shop. If you just let the tow truck driver tow it to the nearest stealer, you will be quoted an insane amount ($4500). I speak from experience...
4. Be mentally prepared that it will happen at a random time

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by mackeroni

Got me thinking... How many sets of tires did you have to buy to make 125,000 miles? Three, four, five?

I'm at the same mileage on my 128i. I got my car at 27K miles and have gone through:

1x set of OEM Bridgestone RFTs which I believe were new when I picked up the car as a CPO

1x Michelin PSS set

1x Michelin Xi2 winter tires

On my second winter of a new Michelin Xi3 tire and will probably wear out my current set of Michelin PSS.

So four sets of tires. Usually I do about 6,000 miles on both winters and summers each year. I imagine if you have a 135i and a heavy foot you'll probably go through tires faster than me. I am a spirited but mostly restrained driver. Three or four track days were done on some of my summers.

[n2djazz]

Originally Posted by JimD

The president of our local BMWCCA club had to have his done 6 months or so ago at well over 100K miles. He was on a trip so he had to have it towed and pay what the repair place wanted. Another member showed him a website where the parts were about 1/2 what he was charged.

Makes me wonder if it might make sense to buy the parts and put them in the trunk. They shouldn't go bad riding around until they are needed. Not the kind of thing you want to do by the side of the road but if you have the parts and can find a DIY on you tube any car repair place should be able to get you back on the road (?)

If you watch the coolant temperature be prepared for it to be higher when steadily cruising than when you are on it a bit. BMW uses the pump speed and the thermostat to drive up temperature for better gas mileage - at least that is what I think is going on. A cheap way to monitor is via the torque app on your phone and a OBDII to bluetooth adapter on your car. Maybe $30. You can easily have a gauge of anything on your OBDII - virtually any sensor in your car.

E82 N54 engines do not have a coolant temperature gauge.

[n2djazz]

Originally Posted by mackeroni

Good story, Jazz. Right on target. But, there's just this one thing... when to replace? If someone were really compulsive, they might have replaced their water pump at 40,000 miles, just in case. Then what? Again at 80,000 miles, just in case. So now, this compulsive someone has replaced their water pump twice and it had never failed. Not even once. And what about those unfortunate few whose pumps failed at 35,000 miles? What should they have done? Obviously, they should have changed their pumps out at 34,000 miles, right?

You see the problem. When is the right time? I feel like I have wasted too much energy fretting about this. I am just at 57,000 miles on my original water pump and I am going to keep going. So...when my pump fails at 58,000 miles way out in the middle of nowhere, you can all have a good laugh at my expense. I won't mind a bit. Really I won't.



Peace and love... Mack

No worries Mack...My story is experience. My intent is to characterize my failure so other can decide whether or not to push their luck...especially if theirs is an '09 model and the pump has not been changed. And, I won't be laughing at your failure should it happen. My sense of humor has long been broken, I just don't find humor in other people's problems/miseries. And I don't think you're poking fun at my break-down. And if you were, I don't care. My purpose for being on this forum is to tell my story so others can learn from it...or not.

[spellbmw]

Originally Posted by mackeroni

Got me thinking... How many sets of tires did you have to buy to make 125,000 miles? Three, four, five?

Original run-flats done at 35K then bought winter rims and tires. So two sets of summer tires and two of winter; my second set of winter tires is new, so most of the 125K was on the three sets. My Michelin PSS were great but need to be replaced in 2018; my first winter set of Dunlops were also great, as is the new set.

So: 3 going on 4 sets

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by germ

1. Get towing from your insurance company
2. When it fails, there's no warning
3. Be prepared and know where you want to have your car towed. Have a trusted mechanic, possible an indie shop. If you just let the tow truck driver tow it to the nearest stealer, you will be quoted an insane amount ($4500). I speak from experience...
4. Be mentally prepared that it will happen at a random time

the bold part is the only one I'll disagree with 100%. Pump retail is $671, and book time for this repair is 3.5 hours, which is $160 per hour in 90% of the shops. There is no way a dealer will ever quote you $4500, unless there is a massive misunderstanding somewhere, which I think is what happened to you.
My pump, thermostat and hose that connects the two came out to $1400. At the dealer. In NYC, where prices are a bit higher.

[tjswarbrick]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

the bold part is the only one I'll disagree with 100%. Pump retail is $671, and book time for this repair is 3.5 hours, which is $160 per hour in 90% of the shops. There is no way a dealer will ever quote you $4500, unless there is a massive misunderstanding somewhere, which I think is what happened to you.
My pump, thermostat and hose that connects the two came out to $1400. At the dealer. In NYC, where prices are a bit higher.

Mine, outside Sacramento, CA was $2200 for those exact parts and same labor. Dealer took pity on my situation, gave 20% off, so charged $1800.
Dealers local to me in SF bay area are slightly higher.

Two local indies quoted $1200 & 1400 for all parts, labor, and tax. But don't have loaners or coffee.