Front is 1.5-2.0" Higher With Dinan Plates and M3 Arms

[Tommm]

I put the M3 control arms and Dinan plates in last week. I dropped it off for an alignment. Front sits almost 2"0 inches higher.

Any thoughts? Shop is going to redo my work after the 4th to see if they can find an answer.

Thanks

[Ginger_Extract]

Can't deduce anything without pictures. That said, it's possible to install the front suspension arms incorrectly. That would fuck up the ride height, and a lot of other things.

[Tommm]

I matched the geometry of the first arm I took off to the arms in the packages. then I put the curved on in the front, and the straight one in the back. tie rod in the middle I think. Car is in shop cant take pictures. think it would have been cheaper and a weekend of life back if I just had the shop do it in the first place. Frustrating. thanks.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by Tommm

I put the M3 control arms and Dinan plates in last week. I dropped it off for an alignment. Front sits almost 2"0 inches higher.

Any thoughts? Shop is going to redo my work after the 4th to see if they can find an answer.

Thanks

Dinan plates do add some ride height.

Got to show us some photos of the install.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Dinan plates do add some ride height.

Got to show us some photos of the install.

I will tomorrow when the shop is open. I will shoot some pictures. the control arms were barely larger than the ones I took off.

I put a jack under one of the ball joints and raised the hub until the center was about 14.5" below the lip of the fender. That's where the height was before I started the job (had koni sports and 135 springs on since November). I wonder if I didn't raise it enough, and it is the bushing in the control arm that hasn't flexed to where it is at the right level?

[Tommm]

Got the car back from the shop this morning. I think I need to vent.

I told them I wanted a street track. They removed the Dinan plates, now the height is about where it was before i put the M3 arms in. About 14.5" from center of roundel straight up, to lip of wheel well.

Here is what I have
Camber -.3 both
Caster 7.6 both
Total toe .2
Rear Camber -1.3 both
Rear total toe .22

The notes say "Tear down front struts and pull camber plates and reset springs camber plates created too much pos camber & height issue. This has diff arms and struts may be a height issue."

i paid $375 for the work in quoutes. The alignment was the normal $165. WTF did i spend a weekend pulling the front end apart and installing the camber plates only to be removed and i have no negative camber for the track. Vent over. How shitty will my tires be after a day at the track?

[02Pilot]

Sounds like the shop didn't understand what you were asking for. Frustrating to be sure. Finding a shop that will deviate from factory specs and actually think about how and why they're doing it is not always easy.

It may be that the only solution for keeping the plates in there will be to take the ride height out of the springs, meaning either cutting, finding lowering springs that will work well with the existing rears, or going to coilovers.

[Tommm]

I am OK with the current ride height. It is where it was before i put the arms and plates in. The height was about 2" higher right after i did the work.

I am ticked that i dont have the negative camber. The owner was a racer, I didnt give him specs, but told him I DE the car a half dozen days a year, and drive 100 miles a day for work. He said he would get me a balance. I then told the tech the same thing. I guess the balance is no negative camber. Ugh!

[02Pilot]

Yeah, after many years of dealing with people I've come to the conclusion that the best course of action is to be as specific as possible regarding what I want. In this case that means numbers. I had a similar conversation with an alignment tech a month or two ago when I needed to be aligned after installing the M3 suspension arms. My car was already lowered. We talked for about 5-10 minutes about the generalities and objectives, but I made sure I didn't give the OK to proceed until I knew what the target numbers were (-0.80 camber F, -1.60 R).

Given that you seem to be giving up on the camber plates, the M3 front arms may be useful to you, as they add about -0.75 camber.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by 02Pilot

Yeah, after many years of dealing with people I've come to the conclusion that the best course of action is to be as specific as possible regarding what I want. In this case that means numbers. I had a similar conversation with an alignment tech a month or two ago when I needed to be aligned after installing the M3 suspension arms. My car was already lowered. We talked for about 5-10 minutes about the generalities and objectives, but I made sure I didn't give the OK to proceed until I knew what the target numbers were (-0.80 camber F, -1.60 R).

Given that you seem to be giving up on the camber plates, the M3 front arms may be useful to you, as they add about -0.75 camber.

With the M3 arms, here is what I have now, with just the M3 arms which i think is pretty close to stock with the 128 arms. I haven't given up on the plates. They are on the floor of the car. That's why i am ticked. With the plates i would be where you are. I am on 135 springs - my car is a 128.
Camber -.3 both
Caster 7.6 both
Total toe .2
Rear Camber -1.3 both
Rear total toe .22

[02Pilot]

OK, I went back and reread the whole thread and I see you have the M3 arms in, so ignore my comments suggesting you install them.

What I don't understand is why your front camber isn't more pronounced. My car has just the M3 arms - no plates - and we probably could have gone to almost -1.0. Did the guy who did yours not knock out the alignment pins? I can't imagine why he would set it up so close to stock based on what you asked for, but then you seem to be wondering the same thing. In any case, there should be some limited range for further adjustment with just what you have in there.

Now, the point with the plates is that they seem to raise your ride height, so if you intend to reinstall them you need to come up with a plan to get back down to the desired height. As mentioned, you'll need to take that height out at the spring and/or the perch.

Decide what you want the final package to look like and find a shop that will play along. Give them concrete intentions: how much camber, ride height, etc. and see how close they can get.

[The Wind Breezes]

That's what you get when you assume other people can read your mind.

Really though I would be pissed and try to pin it back on them. Talk to the owner and be like "I just put in M3 arms and tried to put in camber plates for more negative camber and them told you to give it a sporty alignment. What in the fuck did you think that meant?? Stock settings I could have achieved without any of the above parts?"

Obviously this is fantasy as you would have already done it if it was going to happen, but damn. That is a big misunderstanding that you shouldn't take all the heat for.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by 02Pilot

OK, I went back and reread the whole thread and I see you have the M3 arms in, so ignore my comments suggesting you install them.

What I don't understand is why your front camber isn't more pronounced. My car has just the M3 arms - no plates - and we probably could have gone to almost -1.0. Did the guy who did yours not knock out the alignment pins? I can't imagine why he would set it up so close to stock based on what you asked for, but then you seem to be wondering the same thing. In any case, there should be some limited range for further adjustment with just what you have in there.

Now, the point with the plates is that they seem to raise your ride height, so if you intend to reinstall them you need to come up with a plan to get back down to the desired height. As mentioned, you'll need to take that height out at the spring and/or the perch.

Decide what you want the final package to look like and find a shop that will play along. Give them concrete intentions: how much camber, ride height, etc. and see how close they can get.

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

That's what you get when you assume other people can read your mind.

Really though I would be pissed and try to pin it back on them. Talk to the owner and be like "I just put in M3 arms and tried to put in camber plates for more negative camber and them told you to give it a sporty alignment. What in the fuck did you think that meant?? Stock settings I could have achieved without any of the above parts?"

Obviously this is fantasy as you would have already done it if it was going to happen, but damn. That is a big misunderstanding that you shouldn't take all the heat for.

Here goes
The pins were not in when i dropped off the car. The plates should raise the car about 3/8". I understand that, and am OK with that. I started with about 14.5 between center of roundel and bottom of fender/wheel arch. I expected less than 15" when i was done. I had about 16.25/16.50 when i brought it to the shop. That was the beginning of this thread.

When i dropped off the car, the Dinan instructions were on the seat. The owner worked pit, and raced, I explained what i wanted, he also told me he knew what i wanted - a bit of extra negative camber so the car wont wear out the outside edge on the track, and no so much that i wear out the inside edge on the street. I also explained that to the tech. If i didn't say it, they would have had to read my mind. This is a shop that was recommended for a custom alignment. This wasn't a Firestone or brakes plus that doesn't deviate from what Hunter says.

The next day they called said things were not looking right (I then posted this to see if anyone had an easy answer), they pulled the strut, spun the plate, and it went a total of 2 deg when spun one notch (sounds about right -.75, spin it +.75 = 1.5). I gave them the old nuts and bolts so they could get a litmus if needed.

I got a call yesterday it was ready. I got there this morning right when they opened, paid $634 (may have $63 for something else) and left for work. I was an hour late because of my commute. I look at the floor and see my camber plated. WTF!

Oh, I had on the fender a piece of tape with a line that intersected the lip of the fender and 14.5" in marker. That line and the center of the roundel is where i started, and when i put the arms in, i jacked up the hub until the center of the hub and that line was 14.5". Now I am at the same place before I spent money on arms and plates - Stock. Just no negative camber. For $600 i can buy a few tires to wear out instead of getting the car aligned to save the tires.

It is a friggin heat wave here, I don't feel like pulling the struts out again to install the plates, to pay again for an alignment. $800 for an alignment plus pulling struts twice is a little excessive. I also have a family that (hard to believe) would like to spend time with me before school starts. I wold also like to take my daughter driving so she gets the clutch down before she gets her license in a few months.

[crowtrobot]

This happened to me when I did my new Koni yellows, Dinan plates and M3 control arms all at once. Part of fixing it was making sure that the car was on ramps before tightening the control arm bolts, the other part was just the struts settling - a hard drive got the car back to a normal ride height.

Sucks about the garage. I agree with the others that it is best to specify a target. I told my shop when I got the alignment after I did the work to shoot for -2.0* and they hit it.

Dumb question, but did you install the camber plates in the right direction (assuming these are the fixed plates)? There is a right and left, and a correct way to point them to push the strut inwards.

Sucks that they got left out by the shop, but you shouldn't need to pull the whole strut to get them in place - I put my struts in the wheel well first and then did the camber plates while they were in the general vincinity of the strut tower since my spring compressors sucked and I was having clearance issues with the fender.

[Tommm]

Plates were on correct. I had my wife thread the nut while i pushed the strut up, holding the front one and she saw my finger on the front one, so it didn't spin.

I also had a clear shot since i hadn't put the hub back. I had the wishbones on, then i put the strut on, then hub, brakes...

[FLATBMW]

Originally Posted by crowtrobot

a hard drive got the car back to a normal ride height.

I was thinking that everything needs to set and settle a bit. I know whenever I lift my car it takes about a day or two for my suppression to settle back to normal. The camber plates supposedly add about 1/4 inch of height, some guys claim no height increase. I wonder if lowering spring perches would work? They can be used with shock and spring combination (oem or aftermarket) but not coilovers. Spring perches lowers car approximately 10 - 15 mm or (0.4 - 0.6")

[Tommm]

Anyone have the factory settings?

[gjm120]

If you mean ride height I had these filed away.

[Tommm]

Alignment specs. When i call the owner next week i want to be sure -.3 is factory spec, and he wont say that factory is say zero and he is the expert, and .3 is a lot of negative camber

[02Pilot]

According to the dealer print-out from the previous owner, front camber spec is -0deg12min +/-0deg30min; rear is -1deg30min +/-0deg25min.

[Tommm]

Thanks

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by Tommm

Alignment specs. When i call the owner next week i want to be sure -.3 is factory spec, and he wont say that factory is say zero and he is the expert, and .3 is a lot of negative camber

-0.3* is barely any negative camber especially from a tire wear and grip perspective when driving hard. I believe up to -0.8* is within spec.

The problem with camber is there really isn't much of a compromise. Seriously hard driving will generally need well over -2.0* to use your fronts equally in cornering. And if you're not driving seriously hard, like on the street, you can still pull the occasional .9G on good tires with no negative camber while getting good tire wear.

However, if you are after balance more than peak grip one option is to reduce negative camber in the rear. The rear has so much negative camber stock because it makes the car much more stable in turns. If you reduce rear camber to under -1.0* the car will be a lot more neutral, even without heavy front camber. Of course, you will wear the outside of your tires quickly if you spend too much time at a driving event with that setup.

What's your actual goal here? More grip? Better handling? How much do you want it and what are you willing to give up to get it?