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      09-13-2010, 10:48 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
It is turning out to be a super duper 135IS IMO, but I'm hoping they will suprise us all, and make it more than what it apprears to be, nothing more than a quasi m-car.

Maybe they will take the time to run different fuel pumps at least!
I respect your authoriiitttyyy, but quasi-M started with the e36 (excluding the perfect struts). Let's hope about the pump.
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      09-14-2010, 12:19 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
It is a matter of people having a choice, not finding fault as to why another chooses what they choose.

I'd much rather have a boosted car have DCT, and maybe Mr. Michael Schumacher just prefers to focus on the road, rather than removing his hand from the wheel, just to shiift...

It's in understandable M-DCT is not cheap, but neither is a bloody 1er in the first place. Standard DCT is better than nothing.

It is turning out to be a super duper 135IS IMO, but I'm hoping they will suprise us all, and make it more than what it apprears to be, nothing more than a quasi m-car.

Maybe they will take the time to run different fuel pumps at least!
I don't agree that the lack of DCT relegates the 1M to "iS" status, if that is what you're trying to say.
I've stated that if the 1M doesn't have a special engine, then it's not what an M is to me.
All the corner cutting might put this M in the glorified "iS" category, with the DCT just being one factor in that recipe.

IOW, having or not having DCT doesn't make an M car. I'm not as interested in this car as I might have been, not because of DCT or MT.
Heck, it could have had DCT and no manual, but if it had the other things an M should have, I'd be interested.

Those that discard the 1M just because it won't have DCT, imo, are being somewhat superficial. After all, it's just an automated manual, a great one to be sure, but it's still only a transmission that you can get in any 1 or 3, even if it did have 7 too many selectable modes.
Where's the engine, will there be an adaptive and selectable suspension?
What's that special beyond a higher tuned N54 and a better tuned suspension, which frankly all 1's need?
An LSD and wider body with bigger wheels/tires? Sure, great, if the heart of the beast were a truly special monster.
M is for MOTOR! It starts there.

As far as F1 using these types of transmissions, did it make the sport more competitive? I don't think so. As awesome as the F1 cars are, it's always pretty much a non-RACE. I prefer watching the touring car series, where lap leaders can be swapped often, the cars are competitive to each other, and overall it's more fun to watch.

F1 goes to the team with the most money to spend on hardware and driver, and it's become boring. NASCAR has leveled the playing field so much that it's become 1 long exercise in drafting.
There's no "stock" in "stock car", for quite some time.
F1 has become a showcase for high dollar technology.
Might as well just run 1 car at a time, and the person with the fastest time wins, which is pretty much how it is now.

Anyway, having DCT type trans in F1 doesn't impress me, nor show me that it makes drivers better, faster, or allow pro drivers more time to contemplate 1 less pedal. For the money they pay these guys, they should be asked to use more skills at a time rather then less.

Last edited by RPM90; 09-14-2010 at 12:25 AM..
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      09-14-2010, 01:39 AM   #135
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I understand what you are saying...

I'm not saying it is all because of a lack of DCT, It is the entire package that is being rushed that is without a doubt the big bummer here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I don't agree that the lack of DCT relegates the 1M to "iS" status, if that is what you're trying to say.
I've stated that if the 1M doesn't have a special engine, then it's not what an M is to me.
All the corner cutting might put this M in the glorified "iS" category, with the DCT just being one factor in that recipe.

IOW, having or not having DCT doesn't make an M car. I'm not as interested in this car as I might have been, not because of DCT or MT.
Heck, it could have had DCT and no manual, but if it had the other things an M should have, I'd be interested.

Those that discard the 1M just because it won't have DCT, imo, are being somewhat superficial. After all, it's just an automated manual, a great one to be sure, but it's still only a transmission that you can get in any 1 or 3, even if it did have 7 too many selectable modes.
Where's the engine, will there be an adaptive and selectable suspension?
What's that special beyond a higher tuned N54 and a better tuned suspension, which frankly all 1's need?
An LSD and wider body with bigger wheels/tires? Sure, great, if the heart of the beast were a truly special monster.
M is for MOTOR! It starts there.

As far as F1 using these types of transmissions, did it make the sport more competitive? I don't think so. As awesome as the F1 cars are, it's always pretty much a non-RACE. I prefer watching the touring car series, where lap leaders can be swapped often, the cars are competitive to each other, and overall it's more fun to watch.

F1 goes to the team with the most money to spend on hardware and driver, and it's become boring. NASCAR has leveled the playing field so much that it's become 1 long exercise in drafting.
There's no "stock" in "stock car", for quite some time.
F1 has become a showcase for high dollar technology.
Might as well just run 1 car at a time, and the person with the fastest time wins, which is pretty much how it is now.

Anyway, having DCT type trans in F1 doesn't impress me, nor show me that it makes drivers better, faster, or allow pro drivers more time to contemplate 1 less pedal. For the money they pay these guys, they should be asked to use more skills at a time rather then less.
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      09-14-2010, 04:18 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
I'm quite convinced that one of the best drivers known to mankind has not chosen to completely stay away from what many of us consider to be the most fun, driver-involved form of driving there is.
Sorry to rain on your conviction...... but he has.

On race weekends MB provide him with a C63 AMG Touring, which of course is an auto, and at home in Switzerland he has a GL 455 diesel auto for family transport, as well as a S65 AMG which is an auto of course and a Ferrari California with the paddle shift.

You have to remember, most drivers skills are now honed over years and years (since karting) to 2 pedal, two feet driving not 3 pedal.

Last edited by GeeRam; 09-14-2010 at 04:40 AM..
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      09-14-2010, 09:20 AM   #137
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The DCT vs 6MT debate is getting so old. Who cares. If we took the time and energy used to debate this and put it towards space travel I would be living in another galaxy already.

Just pick the one that you like and forget everyone's opinion. In the end, it just doesn't matter.

I still maintain that BMW didn't put a DCT in the 1M for financial reasons. The sticker price on the 1M maybe too much for some with a 6MT, add another $2K+ for the DCT and the math won't work.
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      09-14-2010, 10:54 AM   #138
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BMW sells about 10% of the 3 series volume in the 1 series. If the 1M sells 10% of the M3 volume, it will be very low. Even if it is 20% it would be low and hard for BMW to justify. It appears they will go with the is engine (hopefully with at least a little more power but possibly not) and manual transmission to keep the development cost down. If they put in the same DCT as the 135, would there not be complaints about the lack of the M-mode? How much would that cost to develop? It makes sense to me to put some money into appearance and handling things, including reduced weight, and keep the mechanicals out-of-the-parts-bin. I think the only real alternative was to not have a 1M.

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      09-14-2010, 09:15 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
BMW sells about 10% of the 3 series volume in the 1 series. If the 1M sells 10% of the M3 volume, it will be very low. Even if it is 20% it would be low and hard for BMW to justify. It appears they will go with the is engine (hopefully with at least a little more power but possibly not) and manual transmission to keep the development cost down. If they put in the same DCT as the 135, would there not be complaints about the lack of the M-mode? How much would that cost to develop? It makes sense to me to put some money into appearance and handling things, including reduced weight, and keep the mechanicals out-of-the-parts-bin. I think the only real alternative was to not have a 1M.

Jim
"I think the only real alternative was to not have a 1M, so soon."

They should have waited until the next 1 came.
Originally there was a lot of speculation on whether the 1 would even sell i the US. It has now proven itself. So, it makes sense for BMW to put investment dollars into a new 1 to include the US market.
Some of those development dollars would then go into the new 1M with the new 1 being it's base platform.

The other viable alternative would easily have been a 135is, using the same formula as the 335is.
An N54 engine, up-tuned with over-boost and DCT available. A special body kit, and better suspension.
Bump the price $5-6k over a same equipped 135i, and Bob's your uncle.
Plenty of appetite whetting, and an eventual bigger group itching for the new 1M, while those who want to be part of the enthusiasm buy the new 135i or 135is. There would have been all the glory with much less bitching and negativity. OPUD-over promise, under deliver is a bad recipe for enthusiast clientele building.

I would have been thrilled with a 135is option with suspension, and likely would have been my next BMW.
For those of us who are already thrilled with the standard 135i, slightly more power and a better suspension would have been welcomed.
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      09-15-2010, 03:13 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The other viable alternative would easily have been a 135is, using the same formula as the 335is.
An N54 engine, up-tuned with over-boost and DCT available. A special body kit, and better suspension.
Bump the price $5-6k over a same equipped 135i, and Bob's your uncle.
Plenty of appetite whetting, and an eventual bigger group itching for the new 1M, while those who want to be part of the enthusiasm buy the new 135i or 135is. There would have been all the glory with much less bitching and negativity. OPUD-over promise, under deliver is a bad recipe for enthusiast clientele building.

I would have been thrilled with a 135is option with suspension, and likely would have been my next BMW.
For those of us who are already thrilled with the standard 135i, slightly more power and a better suspension would have been welcomed.
I pretty much agree with the iS idea tbh, although, I would add a proper LSD into the mix. BMW could do this from their existing 'parts bin' without needing to fit the M-LSD.
The thing is though, LSD excepting, you can have almost have your 135iS anyway from a dealer, new.
Just order the BMW Performance parts of suspension, engine upgrade kit and any styling bits which would pretty much be the 5-6k premium over a 135i as it is.
I think is now what I maybe likely doing and then just add a Quaife diff...

However, I do feel a bit in 'no-mans land' at the moment about which direction to go with the next car
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      09-15-2010, 12:00 PM   #141
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This is so funny and stupid at the same time reading the arguments for and against DCT/Manual.


This is a question of taste and preference much like religion and politics. No one will convince the other they are right/wrong.

Pure FACT. DCT is faster around a track. This is why every single racing series where is it allowed uses some form of sequential transmission instead of stanard fully manual gearboxes. You can argue this all you want, .05 second shifts are faster than most if not all human beings are capable of delivering CONSISTENTLY if at all.

With that fact out of the way its what you prefer. Try arguing scientifically that big boobs are better than smaller ones or that apples taste better than oranges. Aint gonna happen.
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      09-15-2010, 12:29 PM   #142
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      09-16-2010, 03:00 PM   #143
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I am pretty sure that I won't go for this car if it doesn't have DCT despite putting a deposit down for one.
For the past 18 months I've done around 80 laps at the 'ring and around 7 track days in my E92 M3 with DCT. On a track (especially the ring) there really is no comparison to a manual. The sheer speed of the changes makes a real difference.

I am not sure I would be able to, or want do without it anymore.
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      09-16-2010, 06:11 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
The DCT vs 6MT debate is getting so old.
x2. Seriously, find something meaningful to care about. Cars are something people buy to enjoy, for themselves.

Why would you even want to try to take anyway someone's enjoyment from a purchase by knocking it, even if it wasn't your own preference.

Reeks of insecurity to me, but I'll reserve judgment.
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      09-16-2010, 07:38 PM   #145
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While I think it makes sense for BMW to use pretty much the N54is engine, I am hoping they do a bit more. The first "is" type engine for the N55 would be more interesting. Or a little different power profile for the N54 - say 350hp even at the expense of less torque by extending the peak torque higher in the rpm range seems more consistent with the M badge. With a turbo motor, changing the power profile this way seems like it could be done with programming and minimal hardware changes. That should make it possible without a development budget inconsistent with the market.

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      09-16-2010, 11:10 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
I pretty much agree with the iS idea tbh, although, I would add a proper LSD into the mix. BMW could do this from their existing 'parts bin' without needing to fit the M-LSD.
The thing is though, LSD excepting, you can have almost have your 135iS anyway from a dealer, new.
Just order the BMW Performance parts of suspension, engine upgrade kit and any styling bits which would pretty much be the 5-6k premium over a 135i as it is.
I think is now what I maybe likely doing and then just add a Quaife diff...

However, I do feel a bit in 'no-mans land' at the moment about which direction to go with the next car
This was an option with the N54, but I just went to configure something special with the current N55, and there isn't a suspension option, a power kit, or short shift kit. Maybe they are not yet listed?
These were available for the N54.

I think if you added all those things to the N54 you would have exceeded $5-6K. Also, I don't recall what body kit there was available, but I'll bet it would be well over $2K by itself. Plus, what about the install and painting?

A factory iS would allow customers the benefit of "economy of scale", where the whole package would cost less than the sum of individual parts.
Due mainly to manufacturing a whole line of these, plus lower parts costs for the total number.

The iS price premium is too high in the 3 series imo.
I remember a former "ZHP" package for the E46, which had some body pieces, a bit more power, slightly modded suspension, and shorter final drive. Total cost was about $5k or less. These were the best E46 330i's, and still hold a good resale due to the performance, look, and rarity.

If not an "iS' package, then bring back the "ZHP" with LSD and shorter FD option. That would be cool.
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      09-16-2010, 11:23 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
While I think it makes sense for BMW to use pretty much the N54is engine, I am hoping they do a bit more. The first "is" type engine for the N55 would be more interesting. Or a little different power profile for the N54 - say 350hp even at the expense of less torque by extending the peak torque higher in the rpm range seems more consistent with the M badge. With a turbo motor, changing the power profile this way seems like it could be done with programming and minimal hardware changes. That should make it possible without a development budget inconsistent with the market.

Jim
This is what I and some others have been saying as well.
An "M" engine needs to be special. Simply boosting the power in an N54 si not special. A $600 tune can do that, and get more than 350hp at the crank.

Altering the power curve, and adding either larger turbo's, or clipped stock units, would allow for greater high rpm power. Now it starts getting special and different.

The other thing that seems negative by using the N54 is the throttle response one wants in an M. As good as our N54 is, I know with the updated software, my throttle response has gone. I have a distinct lag at speed at higher rpm. I go WFO at 4-5k rpm, in 2nd or 3rd, and there is a lack of response from the engine, then it goes.

Reading the reviews about the N55, the slightly less HP it makes is too small to even worry about, But, what is reported is how the N55 produces it's power and it's near instant throttle response. That's a direct result of valvetronic, and no throttle plate, along with a lighter crank (less rotational mass=less energy to get it moving and stay running).

Some say some of us are being too negative. Not at all.
There simply are reasons for why some of us question the choices BMW has made. Granted, the car isn't here to test. But, given the info we have, it begs the questions and comments.
The N55 should be the base of a 1M. Using the N54, BMW should have just created the best 1 series up until the real 1M shows up.

No one has to agree with that. But, I also have the right to my opinion, even if it might be compared to the wrinkled butt exhaust port that see's no sunshine.
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      09-17-2010, 03:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This was an option with the N54, but I just went to configure something special with the current N55, and there isn't a suspension option, a power kit, or short shift kit. Maybe they are not yet listed?
These were available for the N54.
Doh....

Of course, 135i now has the N55......all this talk of iS N54's, just had me back in 'old' 135i mode.

Suspension though, should be the same?
But, yes, no BMWP power upgrade as yet for the N55. And, yes, I recall, a post on here a while back saying the short-shift kit won't fit the N55 6MT either.

I'll go and crawl back in my box now and shut up
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      09-17-2010, 11:51 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
Doh....

Of course, 135i now has the N55......all this talk of iS N54's, just had me back in 'old' 135i mode.

Suspension though, should be the same?
But, yes, no BMWP power upgrade as yet for the N55. And, yes, I recall, a post on here a while back saying the short-shift kit won't fit the N55 6MT either.

I'll go and crawl back in my box now and shut up
No worries. We all have brain fart moments.

As I recall, perhaps incorrectly, there was an optionasl sport suspension that was different than the 135i stock sport suspension. Pricey too from what I recall.
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      09-17-2010, 02:31 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoli007 View Post
This is so funny and stupid at the same time reading the arguments for and against DCT/Manual.


This is a question of taste and preference much like religion and politics. No one will convince the other they are right/wrong.

Pure FACT. DCT is faster around a track. This is why every single racing series where is it allowed uses some form of sequential transmission instead of stanard fully manual gearboxes. You can argue this all you want, .05 second shifts are faster than most if not all human beings are capable of delivering CONSISTENTLY if at all.

With that fact out of the way its what you prefer. Try arguing scientifically that big boobs are better than smaller ones or that apples taste better than oranges. Aint gonna happen.
Oh, big boobs are better - especially natural ones. Here's the reason. Two words - tittie f's!
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      09-18-2010, 04:08 PM   #151
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Who knows, if they have half a clue, it might be offered after all..
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