BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      05-12-2020, 08:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
I'm fairly new to INPA so I'm no hope there, but I'll repeat it again: There's no coding needed to put the 135i/larger hubs on. As far as wheel speed direction, the wheel bearing has a pulse generator built in to it. It has no clue what direction the wheel is spinning, nor does the wheel speed sensor. Both the wheel speed sensors and the bearings fit on both sides of the vehicle and are therefore not directional.

Maybe if the DCS light is lighting up you're just having too much fun I'm mean, does it just flash, or does it stay on and you have to clear an error code.
"It has no clue what direction the wheel is spinning, nor does the wheel speed sensor."


So if it is not the wheel sensor that indicate the direction of the wheel which sensor is it???

i have tried to test Without the front sensors (harness unplugged) & the rear sensors always indicate the wrong direction. see photo.

help & advice are welcome.

Thanks
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      05-12-2020, 06:51 PM   #24
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So I talked with the shop again today. They confirmed that it was the sensors reading the rear hubs spinning the wrong direction that was making the ESC unhappy and they had to code it (the ESC it sounds like) for the 135i bearings/hubs.

It sounds like the encoder rings have an irregular pattern on. I don't know what that actually looks like dimension wise, but for example, if it's spinning in one direction the sensors reads "long pulse A" then "longer pulse B" and the computer determines the wheel is spinning clockwise. But if if it reads "longer pulse B" followed by "long pulse A" then the computer thinks it's spinning counterclockwise.

Suprgnat - You did the narrow hub conversion when you did your swap right? Does that use different bearings than 135i parts?
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      05-12-2020, 09:04 PM   #25
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So I talked with the shop again today. They confirmed that it was the sensors reading the rear hubs spinning the wrong direction that was making the ESC unhappy and they had to code it (the ESC it sounds like) for the 135i bearings/hubs.

It sounds like the encoder rings have an irregular pattern on. I don't know what that actually looks like dimension wise, but for example, if it's spinning in one direction the sensors reads "long pulse A" then "longer pulse B" and the computer determines the wheel is spinning clockwise. But if if it reads "longer pulse B" followed by "long pulse A" then the computer thinks it's spinning counterclockwise.

Suprgnat - You did the narrow hub conversion when you did your swap right? Does that use different bearings than 135i parts?
thank you to have question the shop about it. I appreciate a lot.

it is my idea to update the DSC software with the 135i version.
however the procedure seems to be difficult and it may be hazardous for the DSC.
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      05-12-2020, 09:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ornicar View Post
"It has no clue what direction the wheel is spinning, nor does the wheel speed sensor."


So if it is not the wheel sensor that indicate the direction of the wheel which sensor is it???

i have tried to test Without the front sensors (harness unplugged) & the rear sensors always indicate the wrong direction. see photo.

help & advice are welcome.

Thanks
Are you getting an error code that indicates a problem with the DCS in the rear? The error code you posted was for the front. If it were me I'd focus on the front as you grafted on parts from a completely different generation of vehicles.

The version of INPA I use does not indicate wheel spin direction. Software/OBC may guess wheel spin direction based on data from other sensors, but I suspect "wheel spin direction" doesn't apply to the E8x/9x chassis.
I have no error on the rear except the rear pas sensor that just come to alarme me to change the pads.

i agree with you about the front, but i have tried to turn the sensors in differents location as to switch off them and the rears one are always read in the wrong way.

in INPA you can read the direction in Chassis/DSC/F5/F1/F1

there is two pages and the wheel direction is on the 2nd page (first one is the speed )

you can read it with ISTA too.

Maybe that i had this issue since the first day of the swap, but i had not noticed it.
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      05-12-2020, 09:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ornicar View Post
thank you to have question the shop about it. I appreciate a lot.

it is my idea to update sho DSC software with the 135i version.
however the procedure seems to be difficult and it may be hazardous for the DSC.
No problem.

From the way he described it, it sounded like they only had to change the one field. But I don't know what's involved with actually reprogramming something like that.
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      05-12-2020, 09:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ornicar View Post
I have no error on the rear except the rear pas sensor that just come to alarme me to change the pads.

i agree with you about the front, but i have tried to turn the sensors in differents location as to switch off them and the rears one are always read in the wrong way.

in INPA you can read the direction in Chassis/DSC/F5/F1/F1

there is two pages and the wheel direction is on the 2nd page (first one is the speed )

you can read it with ISTA too.

Maybe that i had this issue since the first day of the swap, but i had not noticed it.
Sorry. Can't help. No wheel spin direction.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0[/IMG]
go on the 2nd page with the bottom arrow key of your keyboard

Inpa is not really user friendly...
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      05-13-2020, 08:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeb_ View Post
It sounds like the encoder rings have an irregular pattern on. I don't know what that actually looks like dimension wise, but for example, if it's spinning in one direction the sensors reads "long pulse A" then "longer pulse B" and the computer determines the wheel is spinning clockwise. But if if it reads "longer pulse B" followed by "long pulse A" then the computer thinks it's spinning counterclockwise.
Except when it's on the other side of the car, but the computer would know that.

There is no coding required to change a wheel bearing.
There is no coding required to change a wheel speed sensor.
There is no coding required to do a 328i to 128i hub flange swap.
There is no coding required to do a 135i to 128i knuckle swap.
There is no coding required to do a 335i to 128i knuckle swap.
There is no coding required to do a complete M3 suspension swap.
a fast update:

my issue is partialy resolve.

i have updated the DSC software with winKFP.

wheelspin way reading is correct now!

But now i have some christmas lights on the dashboard.

work in progress
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      05-13-2020, 11:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
I don't know what problem you imagine you're fixing at this point but you should stop before you do some serious damage.

It is strange that you cannot see the wheelspin direction on your car? is it the same with ISTA? is your e-lsd functionnal???

So for me it is OK (no more lights on the dash board & wheelspin in the correct way),

The solution was:

1) to update the DSC ZB data software with WinKFP
2) to code it with NCS Expert in using the *UC71 (135i) VO instead of *UC31 (125i) VO
3) to make differents adjustments ZSF angle sensor, hydraulic valve units on ISTA to clear some errors.

a special Thanks to @TRAF for his support!
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      05-13-2020, 05:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Except when it's on the other side of the car, but the computer would know that.

There is no coding required to change a wheel bearing.
There is no coding required to change a wheel speed sensor.
There is no coding required to do a 328i to 128i hub flange swap.
There is no coding required to do a 135i to 128i knuckle swap.
There is no coding required to do a 335i to 128i knuckle swap.
There is no coding required to do a complete M3 suspension swap.
I hear what you're saying, but for arguments sake; Seeing as BMW doesn't have different part numbers for left and right bearings and hubs, I'd think that the computer would be set up to look for the pattern going one direction for clockwise on one side, and the opposite direction for clockwise on the other.

I know it sounds like I'm being difficult, But this is just something I'm personally interested in investigating further before I can say I agree or disagree.

So far we've had 3 people chime in on this thread regarding coding. Two of us have done the 135i spindle+bearing+hub+sensors swap and have had ESC errors that, whether it was actually the cause or not, have went away when the ESC coding for a 135i was done. While you have done 135i spindles + sensors and narrow hubs and bearings and have not had ESC issues.
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      05-13-2020, 05:51 PM   #32
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My bad, re-read your post and realized I think we were saying the same thing about the computer knowing to look for the pattern going one direction on one side and the opposite on the other.
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      08-26-2020, 06:54 PM   #33
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I just stumbled across this thread and realized I could put something to rest.

I looked at my DSC's FSW PSW trace file from my 128i. There is a variable for axle direction.

The 135i rear axle direction IS different than 128i. I am not sure why, but the 135i (N54/N55 and N47D20 cars) will have "wert_01" selected with a data value of 0. The 128i gets "wert_02" with a data value of 1.



Another thing to note:

DO NOT code your DSC for a 135i vehicle order! Just change this one setting! The 135i has all sorts of other different parameters for its brakes and engine and slightly different CG due to heavier engine.

The 135i rear bearing is an "angular ball bearing" on realoem and the 128i uses a traditional "tone wheel". The sensors are different part numbers too. Zero clue why BMw did this, but it is what it is. Also no idea how Suprgnat didn't have to code.

Additional info 8/27: I coded my 128i to the 135i "direction" and received no errors. I think the setting is unused. I did not test the start assist roll back specifically, but I didn't notice anything pulling backward out of my driveway.

No coding is needed for this swap.
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      08-26-2020, 09:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
The 135i rear bearing is an "angular ball bearing" on realoem and the 128i uses a traditional "tone wheel". The sensors are different part numbers too. Zero clue why BMw did this, but it is what it is. Also no idea how Suprgnat didn't have to code.
The parts may be different but they function IDENTICALLY electrically.

BMW did this because the 135i uses a much larger bearing and had less room for a "traditional tone wheel". Having the "tone wheel" integral to the bearing is common among motor vehicle manufacturers.

I didn't have to code because the signals from the wheel speed sensors are electrically identical between the 135i and the 128i.
Believe me I know it makes the most sense for that to be the case. But the fact remains that the 135i has a different direction variable for the rear axle. Why? I don't know. I'm going to be looking into it later.

I was previously a product dev engineer for automotive power train electronics, namely camshaft, crank, and transmission speed sensors (notably not ABS/wheel speed sensors). I'm familiar with their technologies. Directional sensor ASICS use multiple hall elements (generally 3) to determine direction and usually change pulse width to show forward versus reverse.

The only explanation I have is that the sensor supplier had to flip the ASIC in the 135i (and a lot of other models) sensor for packaging reasons. Usually the ASIC manufacturer offers variants for that but maybe bmw just wanted them to use the same thing?

I can't dismiss that multiple posts happened to have the same issue with sensor direction after similar mods.

Idk. I'm going to look further into it because it's VERY unusual.
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      08-26-2020, 09:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
words
Dude.

The computer is looking for and getting the correct square wave electrical pulse from the wheel speed sensor. That's it. No black magic. No coding. I can't make it simpler than that.

Since you state you don't know how wheel speed sensors work, this guy's awesome.

Maybe it will give you some understanding. The short intro until about minute 7:33


Other than that I would appreciate being left out of any further discussion on this topic.
Wow no need to be rude.

I'm extremely well versed in sensors. Moreso than anything you'll be able to find online. I just made the disclaimer I didn't design and manufacture wheel speed sensors specifically. They're very similar to transmission speed sensors of which I've got millions on the road right now. BMW has error codes for direction which would imply they have directional sensors which means it's not just a VR sensor from the early 2000s. It's a multi cell Hall effect sensor with digital processing and algorithms.

The fact remains that the coding option exists. Do you think it's there for no reason? It's strange. I also refuse to dismiss these other poster's problems given that there is a coding option.

Just saying I'm going to investigate further. No idea why you're getting upset.
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      08-26-2020, 10:31 PM   #36
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You denied they could've found a code. Well the code is there sorry.


As I suspected it's quite a bit more complex than just a square wave and they're 3 cell directional.

These sensors actually imbed some data in their output. They effectively modulate the current (2 wire sensor) to form various pulses during each step on the target. It's a lot of information for a little 2 wire sensor.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...c-unit/26K6m4k

Still looking into why that coding option even exists. That's all I'm curious about and you're getting mad.
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      08-27-2020, 10:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
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"Deny", LOL.

So what? They found a code. Start a new thread called "Hey, I Found Some Random Code!". You guys have taken this subject completely off topic from "135i rear calipers for 128i". This code stuff has NOTHING to do with the swap.



From the link YOU provided:

"On the front axle there is increment gear opposite the wheel-speed sensor."

On the rear axle there is a ring of magnets around the wheel bearing (increment wheel). The north and south poles of the increment wheel alternate."

We are talking about the REAR, right? So yes, it really is that simple. A square wave pulse.

I don't think the illustration showing an X-Drive E60 is helping you.



Cool. You should start a thread about it. Knock yourself out. This thread is "135i rear calipers for 128i".
Yeah you need to chill out.

NO it's a directional sensor. You're out of your element here, I'm sorry. It's not just a square wave. It's a series of square pulses providing several pieces of info PER speed pulse. Simple square wave is OLD technology. You're so lost you don't even know what I'm saying.

The type of target is irrelevant (magnet ring or metal tone wheel or whatever). They all serve the same purpose to provide an oscillating magnetic flux through the hall cell elements (of which there are 3). You're trying to talk down to a someone who actually designed and manufactured these things. I've worked with Infineon, Allegro, Honeywell, etc to work on algorithms to deal with various needed features to the silicon level up through injection molding of the fucking connector. Stop your condescending tone. You remind me of E46Mango from E46 Fanatics.

Here is the page going through the 135 or 128i. I just had the wrong DSC module selected but they use the same types of sensors.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/1yLXqDh



If the 135i actually has a different direction of rotation then this is all entirely relevant to the switch.
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      08-27-2020, 11:29 AM   #38
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I just coded my car for 135i axle direction (selects wert_00 and wert_01) and drove around the neighborhood. It appears to be a completely inactive selection. No errors.

So we can confirm the DSC doesn't care about 135i sensors vs 128i sensors and the coding did nothing. This makes the most sense.

Yes, Suprgnat, I know that was YOUR experience already. I had to see what the other poster's experiences really were.
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      08-27-2020, 01:11 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
Yeah you need to chill out.
Probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
NO it's a directional sensor. You're out of your element here, I'm sorry. It's not just a square wave. It's a series of square pulses providing several pieces of info PER speed pulse.
I EVEN TOLD YOU YOU WERE LOOKING AT AN ILLUSTRATION OF AN X-DRIVE E60 SUSPENSION and you still draw the same incorrect conclusions.

The wheel speed sensors used at the rear of a 2-wheel drive E-8/9X are the type shown in Figure A of the illustration contained in your link. Whether you choose to believe it or not, the fact remains it's a simple square pulse.

Illustration vs. 128i:
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0[/IMG]
The 135i rear pulse ring is integral the the bearing a previously discussed. I wish I'd taken photos of the destroyed bearings from my hub swap, but I don't think that would sway you.

Disconnect the rear wheel speed sensor(s) on your 128i and scope the signal generated by spinning the rear wheels. Try a few 135is.
Come back again and tell me I'm "out of my element" and "don't even know" what you're saying. Post the scope traces. I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
Square wave is OLD technology.
Incorrect. BMW TIS says you're wrong. I accidentally linked a later DSC module but the E82 is the same type of sensor and I linked the correct one. Read and stop being such an arrogant ass.

Why are you still going on about the sensor targets? I'm well aware of the variants in the 128i and 135i. The 128i uses simple ferrous targets and the sensor is back biased with a rare earth magnet to generate the field. On the rear of the 135i the bearing race is magnetized thus there is no magnet in the sensor. They both generate similar magnetic flux in the sensor elements. The ASIC processes the flux reading from 3 elements and does some basic math and a few algorithms and decides when to output a pulse and the following data (per TIS).

Unfortunately no Oscope anymore since I don't work for the sensor manufacturer anymore. But again, BMW TIS says you're wrong unless it's just disorganized and not going to the right pages or the TIS itself is wrong. The MK60 DSC uses these advanced speed sensors. The Z4 apparently uses the regular simple square wave sensors.

DSC Mk60E5

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/1tzCnXU

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/1yLXqDh

LOL I even found a similar Infineon product. A slightly older version of this is probably in our wheel speed sensors.

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infine...6c484bd04016f6

These things are seriously impressive.
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      08-27-2020, 02:28 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Incorrect. BMW TIS says you're wrong. (followed by a bunch more words)
I just don't know how to make this more clear.

The illustration on the TIS was of an X-Drive E60. It was used as an example. The E6x and E8x/9x DO NOT share suspensions.

The linked TIS text CLEARLY states:

"On the rear axle there is a ring of magnets around the wheel bearing ([COLOR="red"]increment wheel[/COLOR]). The north and south poles of the increment wheel alternate.
[COLOR="Red"]One north pole with one south pole constitutes one increment[/COLOR] (cf. tooth/gap on an increment gear)."

But you choose to ignore that because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

I'm not being arrogant, I'm telling you you're wrong. I was trying to help.

Sorry.

I apologize for letting myself get dragged back into this. You clearly know better. I'll shut up and go away.

Good luck. Godspeed. Live long and prosper.
Dude WHAT!?!??!? Look at the output diagram! That description you keep repeating only concerns the TARGET WHEEL.

Get past the E60 link. I PROVIDED A NEW ONE FOR E8X/E9X RWD! TWICE! I'm not talking about the god damned suspension or the increment/target wheel whatever you want to call it.

Holy shit!

FCPEuro also confirms the TIS information in their E90 speed sensor diagnostic guide.
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      08-27-2020, 02:37 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
Dude WHAT!?!??!? Look at the output diagram! That description you keep repeating only concerns the TARGET WHEEL.

Get past the E60 link. I PROVIDED A NEW ONE FOR E8X/E9X RWD! TWICE! I'm not talking about the god damned suspension or the increment/target wheel whatever you want to call it.

Holy shit!

FCPEuro also confirms the TIS information in their E90 speed sensor diagnostic guide.
You got this. You don't need me. I deleted my posts. Carry on.
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      08-27-2020, 02:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
Dude WHAT!?!??!? Look at the output diagram! That description you keep repeating only concerns the TARGET WHEEL.

Get past the E60 link. I PROVIDED A NEW ONE FOR E8X/E9X RWD! TWICE! I'm not talking about the god damned suspension or the increment/target wheel whatever you want to call it.

Holy shit!

FCPEuro also confirms the TIS information in their E90 speed sensor diagnostic guide.
You got this. You don't need me. I deleted my posts. Carry on.
Lost a LOT of respect for you today. Can't even admit you were wrong on the smallest thing. It's not even relevant anymore!

The E82 uses speed sensors that output additional data. It's not just a square wave that follows the gear or magnetic form anymore.
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      08-27-2020, 05:00 PM   #43
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Lost a LOT of respect for you today. Can't even admit you were wrong on the smallest thing. It's not even relevant anymore!

The E82 uses speed sensors that output additional data. It's not just a square wave that follows the gear or magnetic form anymore.
Look. There are no technical limitations to sensing wheel direction and BMW assuredly implements it in at least two fashions, if that makes you happy.

It's still irrelevant to the OP.

Whatever signal the computer in the 128i is looking for from the 135i wheel speed sensors, the computer is getting.

The OPs questions were answered. There is no coding. No werts. It's a direct bolt on. I'm not lucky. It's not a fluke. I'm not the only one. Get an alignment after install. Clear any wheel speed sensor errors that may have occurred from driving around with your wheels all catawampus.

The anomalies found while poking around in INPA, between different versions of INPA, and in whatever other software that was brought up, though obviously interesting to some, have nothing to do with the swap. This thread hasn't been about the 135i brake swap for a long time, and I keep forgetting that.

I apologize.
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      08-27-2020, 06:05 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE82 View Post
Lost a LOT of respect for you today. Can't even admit you were wrong on the smallest thing. It's not even relevant anymore!

The E82 uses speed sensors that output additional data. It's not just a square wave that follows the gear or magnetic form anymore.
Look. There are no technical limitations to sensing wheel direction and BMW assuredly implements it in at least two fashions, if that makes you happy.

It's still irrelevant to the OP.

Whatever signal the computer in the 128i is looking for from the 135i wheel speed sensors, the computer is getting.

The OPs questions were answered. There is no coding. No werts. It's a direct bolt on. I'm not lucky. It's not a fluke. I'm not the only one. Get an alignment after install. Clear any wheel speed sensor errors that may have occurred from driving around with your wheels all catawampus.

The anomalies found while poking around in INPA, between different versions of INPA, and in whatever other software that was brought up, though obviously interesting to some, have nothing to do with the swap. This thread hasn't been about the 135i brake swap for a long time, and I keep forgetting that.

I apologize.
I figured out the coding thing (the line is useless and does nothing). No idea why you got frustrated by it. It's excellent you were correct and it works with no coding. That makes the most sense too. It was a strange situation AND the sensors are directional and pretty advanced. So it was confusing for a few posters. It was worth looking into and interesting how different these sensors are from older models like the E46 and Z4.
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