What does the .:R36 have in common with the 135i?

[ducati]

Originally Posted by othercaracobra

Amen to that brother, just don't let it bite you... :biggrin:

Yep, can certainly happen... I looped a few, back in the day.

Haven't owned RWD since my departed '02 IS300. I'll have to ease back into it

[adc]

Originally Posted by othercaracobra

For us mere mortal drivers it really is much easier to drive fast with an AWD car.

It may be easier - but are you learning as much?

Consider this - at VIR in my 330i I passed a modified B5 S4, but had this modified Integra GSR on my butt almost the entire session. What does this tell me about the capabilities of the cars involved? Absolutely nothing... :tongue:

If I wanted a fast, fun, and rotate-able AWD car I'd seriously consider the Evo X. Much more potential than the R32, probably at a similar pricepoint...

[othercaracobra]

Originally Posted by adc

It may be easier - but are you learning as much?

Consider this - at VIR in my 330i I passed a modified B5 S4, but had this modified Integra GSR on my butt almost the entire session. What does this tell me about the capabilities of the cars involved? Absolutely nothing... :tongue:

Sure, I was learning how to drive fast with an AWD car. You can approach a track a lot differently in an AWD car. Just as you would approach a track differently with FWD or RWD.

I have a car that I can practice rotating with... 1964 Cobra replica (2250 lbs. with 440 hp.) :biggrin:

You are right about capability of cars versus what the driver is doing with the car. Frankly, a lot of it comes down to how much you are willing to risk during a HPDE. Are you concerned about damaging your car? Can you afford to damage your car? Do you want to drive home in the car? Are you concerned about potential personal injury? How about your instructer if you have one riding along?

But hey, it's all fun. :smile:

[R32]

Originally Posted by adc

It may be easier - but are you learning as much?

i've thought about this a lot, since i cut my track teeth in my R32. to be sure, an awd car is easier to learn on, and safer on the track, especially when wet.

but, what is it you learn on a rwd that you can't learn on a awd car? i can think of a few:
1: drifting. although fun, it is not fast.
2: burnouts. uninterested.

i'm being facetious, of course, but my point is that for the weekend track warrior such as myself, the nuances gained by driving a rwd are probably immaterial. if i really want to get good, i'll buy a spec miata and go on from there.

i have never had a car that i have enjoyed driving more than the r32. plus, pads and tires are all that are necessary to have a car that you can hammer all day at the track, and plenty of room. name another trackable car that can carry 4 tires, jack, ezup tent, cooler and a folding chair. (rs4 wagon? :smile

that having been said, i will give the 135i a hard look because it is 1: lighter 2: faster 3: awesome handling 4: reasonably priced.

if only it were coming to the US as a hatchback...

[ducati]

I used to carry 4 tires, jack, airtank, foldup chair, misc. tools in my old Integra Type R. Gotta love the hatchbacks.

I've never owned a high performance AWD car, so I don't know if my experiences parallel... But FWD and RWD (and, I suspect, AWD) require very different approaches on a track. Both can be quite fast, and I although I personally enjoy RWD more, I wouldn't say that it's a "higher form of driving" or anything of the sort. "Are you learning as much?" smacks to me of eliteism. Maximizing potential on either platform takes quite a bit of skill.

Personally, it's hard for me to go back and forth and be skilled at both. Both require similar skill sets, but different strategy. I do best if I stick with one drive axle and perfect (or attempt to perfect!) my handling of same.

I think track experience is, indeed, transferable; as long as you understand you have to learn RWD nuances and handling traits, and not treat a front engine RWD car like an AWD car, you will pick them up over time and have a blast.

The only truly analagous situation I have is after quite a bit of track time in FWD vehicles, I found myself driving my wife's old Land Rover home at high speed on a highway. I was running home because our home alarm was going off, and the police were going to break down the door (another story...), and traveling far too quickly at about 90mph. A semi in front of me burst the load-holding metal bands that retained a truck full of 2x4s, and I saw 2x4s tumbling down the highway in anger. No drama whatsoever; I simply steered around the bulk of the angry wood, and although I did catch one 2x4 in the windshield, it luckily did not penetrate.

There was a pileup of crashed vehicles behind me.

So, I certainly didn't learn to drive a SUV on a track, but my track time at high speeds in my cars helped me avoid the overcorrecting inputs that most people seem to apply.

[Faba]

Dudes to make things very clear here, there us no such thing as R36 only R32. Trust me I know I live on vortex

[phastman]

I think you can tell just by the number of R32 owners on this thread that several R guys are interested in the 135. I can tell you my reasons to consider replacing the R with it are:
-50/50 weight balance (the R is nose heavy)
-lighter (but not by that much)
-can mod to near 400 HP with simple bolt-ons (as opposed to dropping 10k+ on an R for the same HP)
-BMW's been building performance-based vehicles for a long time and that experience shows.

[adc]

Originally Posted by R32

if i really want to get good, i'll buy a spec miata and go on from there.

Spec Miatas are RWD, you know... :smile:

My argument was with AWD vs. RWD, not VW vs. BMW...

name another trackable car that can carry 4 tires, jack, ezup tent, cooler and a folding chair. (rs4 wagon? :smile

2003 BMW 330i Perf Package with the fold down rear seat option. I just sold mine...

Originally Posted by ducati

and I although I personally enjoy RWD more, I wouldn't say that it's a "higher form of driving" or anything of the sort. "Are you learning as much?" smacks to me of eliteism. Maximizing potential on either platform takes quite a bit of skill.

If you are implying that my post was looking down on people driving AWD cars, then you are mistaken. I've had 2 Quattros in the past and enjoyed both immensely... not to mention my wife's X3 which I enjoy driving in ways that my wife should never have to find out about...

My point is that driving a high performance AWD car at the track can sometimes prevent you from learning some of the finer points of car control - in general. Not having to worry about front/rear balance during a corner, or about traction on corner exit, can lead people to drive sloppier lines. A balanced and communicative RWD car will penalize such mistakes immediately and reward good driving immensely. Just my opinion, if nothing else it applies to my driving style and skills (or lack thereof).

I took a test drive of an Evo 8 a few years ago, and by the 3rd corner (with the wife alongside and the salesguy in the back) I was drifting beautifully with the tail hanging out, and absolutely no sweat on my brow. There and then I realized that this was not my doing, instead the Evo's computerized AWD system had guessed what I was trying to do and was lending me a huge helping hand.

I'm exagerating a little bit, but for me personally I have concluded that I need a balanced RWD car to learn the most, both in terms of speed and car control techniques.

(BTW at the track I learned the most on the wet skidpad, moving at 30mph not 130mph).

And after all is said and done, I think it's more fun. :smile:

[R32]

Originally Posted by adc

Spec Miatas are RWD, you know... :smile:

...but for me personally I have concluded that I need a balanced RWD car to learn the most, both in terms of speed and car control techniques.

well said! that's why i'd choose the miata if i wanted to learn racing- rwd, cheap consumables, plenty of ways to participate... the rewards of rwd cars are there, but only if i make a significant time investment into getting really good. (insert beer emoticon here)

[ducati]

Originally Posted by adc

If you are implying that my post was looking down on people driving AWD cars, then you are mistaken.

<snip>

I took a test drive of an Evo 8 a few years ago, and by the 3rd corner (with the wife alongside and the salesguy in the back) I was drifting beautifully with the tail hanging out, and absolutely no sweat on my brow. There and then I realized that this was not my doing, instead the Evo's computerized AWD system had guessed what I was trying to do and was lending me a huge helping hand.

<snip>

And after all is said and done, I think it's more fun. :smile:

Gotcha, makes sense.

I test drove the 335 and 328 recently, with no RWD experience since 2003. After 20 or 25 minutes of feeling out the 328, I was drifting it around corners... And my wife wasn't yelling "slow down!" Drama free. Sooo....

I totally agree. BMW RWD chassis are excellent, and RWD is definitely more fun.

[NY SLC 93]

I am a current R32 owner and I LOVE my car.

The appeal of the 135i to me is:

1. It comes in manual and black. The new R32 does not.

2. There are no sure plans for an R36 (~300hp) or a manual.

3. The 135 is nearly the same price as the new .:R.

4. The 135 has a turbo, hence, you can tune it relatively cheaply and squeeze more power out than a NA motor.


The R32 wins here:

1. Exhaust note. I would say there are few cars one the road, especially at this price, that can shake a stick at the .:R's mean grumble. Bimmers sound nice, but not as nice as the VR6.

2. It's a very unique car, a head turner.

3. I prefer the .:R's interior trim, seats, dash lighting, and steering wheel.

4. I do like AWD and the handling characteristics in the .:R, especially with upgraded sway bar and suspension.

This all being said, I'm def in the market for the new 135i, but I wish I could justify keeping my .:R!

[adc]

Originally Posted by NY SLC 93

1. Exhaust note. I would say there are few cars one the road, especially at this price, that can shake a stick at the .:R's mean grumble. Bimmers sound nice, but not as nice as the VR6.

If you have a chance, listen to a 335i with the "golf tee mod" performed - IMO it shakes the stick more than the R32 exhaust does (and yes, I've heard the R32).

If the 135i exhaust note is anything like the uncorked 335i, we have a winner.

2. It's a very unique car, a head turner.

I may be in the minority here, but I personally think the 135i is kind of ugly. It would not stop me from buying one, but in comparison I find the R32 beautiful, like a polished jewel, with a design integrity that's rarely found in today's automotive world. To me, by comparison, the 135i looks more like a mismatched collection of parts rather than a unitary item.

No need to flame, this is just my opinion - and despite it, I am fully prepare to make the 135i my own, to love it and to cherish it for a long time.

[othercaracobra]

Originally Posted by adc

I may be in the minority here, but I personally think the 135i is kind of ugly. It would not stop me from buying one, but in comparison I find the R32 beautiful, like a polished jewel, with a design integrity that's rarely found in today's automotive world. To me, by comparison, the 135i looks more like a mismatched collection of parts rather than a unitary item.

Are you talking Mk4 R32 or Mk5 R32? Cause in my opinion the Mk5 is pure homely, while the Mk4 is pure classic (at least if we are comparing within the VAG group.) The Mk5 has no character, just a jelly bean blob which is why I won't consider buying one.

[adc]

Originally Posted by othercaracobra

Are you talking Mk4 R32 or Mk5 R32? Cause in my opinion the Mk5 is pure homely, while the Mk4 is pure classic (at least if we are comparing within the VAG group.) The Mk5 has no character, just a jelly bean blob which is why I won't consider buying one.

While I prefer the looks of the MKIV to the MKV, I think they're both better than the 135i.

I think part of the MKV's problem is the shiny front bumper/grille treatment, which should be easy to alleviate via aftermarket.

[NY SLC 93]

Originally Posted by adc

No need to flame, this is just my opinion - and despite it, I am fully prepare to make the 135i my own, to love it and to cherish it for a long time.

I agree that the R32 is better looking. That M1 rendering looks sick tho.

And the MKV is nothing special, the interior is nice, but the MKIV exterior is much more aggressive.

[mikeo]

adc,
What, pray tell, is the 'golf tee mod'?

[Maximus Decimus]

Originally Posted by mikeo

adc,
What, pray tell, is the 'golf tee mod'?

Swing by e90post and do a quick search. Discussed ad nauseum.

[adc]

Originally Posted by mikeo

adc,
What, pray tell, is the 'golf tee mod'?

Since the E46 days, BMWs have had a vacuum-operated valve in the exhaust stream, typically the leftmost pipe on US cars. It is intended to aid with quicker warm-up of the cats and with reducing noise at low RPMs. At high RPMs or high loads it opens, creating a free flowing exhaust path.

Many people are disabling this by removing the vacuum hose, sticking a golf tee in it (thus the name), and finally capping the valve neck with a rubber vacuum cap.

You get the full noise and flow this way, without interference from the engine management. Basically for free, in 5 min tops.

I did this even on the wife's X3 and she loves it.

[mikeo]

Ah, thanks for the education.

[NY SLC 93]

Originally Posted by adc

Since the E46 days, BMWs have had a vacuum-operated valve in the exhaust stream, typically the leftmost pipe on US cars. It is intended to aid with quicker warm-up of the cats and with reducing noise at low RPMs. At high RPMs or high loads it opens, creating a free flowing exhaust path.

Many people are disabling this by removing the vacuum hose, sticking a golf tee in it (thus the name), and finally capping the valve neck with a rubber vacuum cap.

You get the full noise and flow this way, without interference from the engine management. Basically for free, in 5 min tops.

I did this even on the wife's X3 and she loves it.

The R32 has the same thing in the stock exhaust. We call it the "flapper mod".

[adc]

Originally Posted by NY SLC 93

The R32 has the same thing in the stock exhaust. We call it the "flapper mod".

I guess with a bimmer you move up the social scale, which favors golf - thus the "golf tee mod" I guess... :smile:

I actually had to run to Sports Authority to buy a bag of golf tees, had to get the ordinary wooden ones - maybe some fancy CF tees would have worked better...