Discussion: Will 135i be more of a driver's car than 335i?

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

But, make no mistake... this won't be an M class setup.

Hopefully they'll surprise us. I think it might be closer to "M Class" than you seem to believe. My only evidence is the 6 pot brakes. That's SERIOUS stuff. Why do that and not get the suspension right?

I guess we'll find out.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by LonghornTX

Well, I guess everyone is allowed their opinion , and of course this subject is pretty subjective so everybodys opinion will likely differ.

Most of the major car magazines rave about how good the 335i is as a drivers car. Infact C&D even got one around VIR faster than the M coupe and RS4. This is what they had to say:

"The 335i does everything remarkably well, which is why many of us at Car and Driver think it’s the best all-around car in the world. "

I don't think it's a question of opinion, but rather, definition of driver's car. Maybe we should work on that definition.

Off the cuff, I think of a driver's car as one that focuses on driving dynamics, provides good feedback to a driver, doesn't interfere too much electronically, and when driven by a skilled driver, will produce good performance figures.

An electronic car that helps a driver drive well is a video game, not a driver's car - it's not all about times.

The 335i is NOT a driver's car. It's a fast, numb, gorgeous, oversized GT.

Examples of driver's cars: Lotus Elise/Exige, any Ferrari that isn't a GT, 911 GT2/GT3 (even the plain vanilla 997), Porsche Cayman, Z4 Coupe, Mini Cooper S (sort of), Civic Si (aspiring at least), Corvette (yep, I said it), Viper, Honda S2000, Acura NSX, e46 and previous M3 & e46 ZHP (borderline for ZHP, but intention is there), and cars of similar ilk.

Hopefully the 135i will join this group.

The 335i has been ejected, so BMW needs to fill the slot!

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

+1

but -1 for calling the 335i numb. We can't compare the 1/335i to cars that aren't its competitors. In its segment, the 335i is the best driving car

Sure we can compare it.

"Driver's Car" is not relative.

The car is, or it isn't.

I could car less about segments.

So I should comprimise my desire to own and drive a true "Driver's Car" because it fits into a segment and at least its better than the others in that segment?

[KingOfJericho]

Anyone in the area who wants to experience a drivers car is more than welcome to come for a spin in my Exige. It doesn't even have power steering. My brother has a Civic Si and I can tell you from experience that the Si is as much a drivers car as a Camry but for the money you really can't beat it. The vette, stigma aside, is about as close as America has been to a drivers car in decades. If you don't believe me, go to your local track and watch one in the hands of a skilled driver.

[Maximus Decimus]

Now we're comparing the 1/3/535's to GT2's, and Ferrari's????? :iono: If you're looking for an offering from BMW to be on par with those cars, I'd say only a CSL is designed with those kinds of aspirations, and that's a real stretch. Why would an everyday average consumer car be put in the same sentence as these cars??? Who will be struggling to pick between these? If you are, ummm... my vote is for the F430 Scuderia over the 135i.

If we're not comparing segments, then this is my vote for a "true" drivers car!!

[KingOfJericho]

A Lotus Elise is cheaper than a 335i.

[kamakazitp]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

A Lotus Elise is cheaper than a 335i.

2007 Lotus Elise: MSRP $46,270 USD
??????

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by kamakazitp

2007 Lotus Elise: MSRP $46,270 USD
??????

While not cheaper, it's certainly close enough to be considered in the same general segment.

[gotgemini2000]

If the BMW 335i is not a drivers car than the E46 M3 is not a drivers car and if you want to make that claim you are just plain wrong. My younger brother has a 335i and it's incredibly quick yet also refined. A drivers car is not a car that weighs nothing and is worthless for 99% of the driving you do (No offense KingofJericho but a good example is a Lotus Elise, a Lotus is a toy), a drivers car is a car that can be driven every day year round, yet at the same time always has the performance to put a smile on your face. The 2002tii is a very good example of a drivers car for this reason. As for the 335i, it is as fast if not faster than the M3, it is just as confidence inspiring on roads, the steering is somewhat numb at low speeds (under 15-20 Mph) but above that it's incredible. Every time I have driven my brothers 335i I have thoroughly enjoyed myself, the gear shifts are perfectly spaced, the driving position is terrific, and you can drag along 4 people and a bunch of stuff for the ride. If the 135i is 200 pounds less than the 335i with better brakes, it will be a terrific drivers car.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by gotgemini2000

If the BMW 335i is not a drivers car than the E46 M3 is not a drivers car and if you want to make that claim you are just plain wrong. My younger brother has a 335i and it's incredibly quick yet also refined. A drivers car is not a car that weighs nothing and is worthless for 99% of the driving you do (No offense KingofJericho but a good example is a Lotus Elise, a Lotus is a toy), a drivers car is a car that can be driven every day year round, yet at the same time always has the performance to put a smile on your face. The 2002tii is a very good example of a drivers car for this reason. As for the 335i, it is as fast if not faster than the M3, it is just as confidence inspiring on roads, the steering is somewhat numb at low speeds (under 15-20 Mph) but above that it's incredible. Every time I have driven my brothers 335i I have thoroughly enjoyed myself, the gear shifts are perfectly spaced, the driving position is terrific, and you can drag along 4 people and a bunch of stuff for the ride. If the 135i is 200 pounds less than the 335i with better brakes, it will be a terrific drivers car.

I think you're confusing "driver's car" for "commuter's car" or "driver with a family's car." A driver's car is a car that makes no compromises in the quest for performance. Worthless for 99% of the driving you do would be every single SUV on the road. I don't know about you but I do 99% of my driving by myself or with my girlfriend which makes the Lotus absolutely perfect, and it gets almost 30mpg to boot. Can I drive it in 12" of snow? No, but I don't think I'd try it in the 335i either. Utility has nothing to do with whether or not the car is a driver's car.

[kamakazitp]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

While not cheaper, it's certainly close enough to be considered in the same general segment.

with options, the 335i shoots up in price more than an Elise, but I wouldn't even remotely consider them in the same segment.

Elise = 2seat, lightweight, super go kart, pure driving experience, not good for daily driving.

335i = 4 seater, good compromise of spirited/sports driving experience, power and daily driving creature comforts, in an upscale/luxury shell.

dont get me wrong, I love the elise and would love to have one as a 2nd car, but I wouldnt put it as having the same target audience as the 335i or 135i.

one way you could clarify your definition of "drivers car" could simply be put as "pure drivers car". basically means you dont have a backseat, much cargo space, anything that isnt needed to drive legally that adds weight, etc.

[aesthetect]

Originally Posted by kurichan

So I should comprimise my desire to own and drive a true "Driver's Car" because it fits into a segment and at least its better than the others in that segment?

some people do care about segments. if you could care less why dont you go buy a cayman S and be done with it? because you want the practicality of a backseat, reasonable price tage and decent trunk space ala foldable rear seats.. then youre shopping in a segment!!! :eyebulge:
i see where youre going but its an impractical line of thought and youre hardheadedly ignoring everyones comments.


regardless, 200 lbs is meh. i think the only question worth resolving here is how different the suspension setups will be between 135 and 335. opinions?

[Steve325xi]

Originally Posted by m1ster s

My mistake. I swear I read that somewhere...

You did read that, Car & Driver wrote that the 1 series coupe uses the e46 platform.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I don't think it's a question of opinion, but rather, definition of driver's car. Maybe we should work on that definition.

Off the cuff, I think of a driver's car as one that focuses on driving dynamics, provides good feedback to a driver, doesn't interfere too much electronically, and when driven by a skilled driver, will produce good performance figures.

An electronic car that helps a driver drive well is a video game, not a driver's car - it's not all about times.

The 335i is NOT a driver's car. It's a fast, numb, gorgeous, oversized GT.

Examples of driver's cars: Lotus Elise/Exige, any Ferrari that isn't a GT, 911 GT2/GT3 (even the plain vanilla 997), Porsche Cayman, Z4 Coupe, Mini Cooper S (sort of), Civic Si (aspiring at least), Corvette (yep, I said it), Viper, Honda S2000, Acura NSX, e46 and previous M3 & e46 ZHP (borderline for ZHP, but intention is there), and cars of similar ilk.

Hopefully the 135i will join this group.

The 335i has been ejected, so BMW needs to fill the slot!

Your definition of a "drivers car" is merely your opinion of what that definition should entale. That is language. There is no dictionary or traditional definition of what a drivers car should be, like there might be for a sports car, roadster, GT, etc.

My definition of what a drivers car is obviously different than yours. Mine is simply a car that caters to someone who enjoys driving; the 335i does that IMO, just like the 135i will.

Your examples are mostly on the extreme side (like the GT3 or Exige), others not so (the Si is not that great IMO).

Turn the electronics off and the 335i handles quite well at the limit IMO, with plenty of feedback from all the primary controls to allow me to feel very comfortable pushing it on backroads. In the hands of a skilled driver, the 335i whooped the M-Coupe by over a second around VIR......

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by Steve325xi

You did read that, Car & Driver wrote that the 1 series coupe uses the e46 platform.

They retracted it later.

[grant]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I don't think it's a question of opinion, but rather, definition of driver's car. Maybe we should work on that definition.

Off the cuff, I think of a driver's car as one that focuses on driving dynamics, provides good feedback to a driver, doesn't interfere too much electronically, and when driven by a skilled driver, will produce good performance figures.

An electronic car that helps a driver drive well is a video game, not a driver's car - it's not all about times.

The 335i is NOT a driver's car. It's a fast, numb, gorgeous, oversized GT.

Examples of driver's cars: Lotus Elise/Exige, any Ferrari that isn't a GT, 911 GT2/GT3 (even the plain vanilla 997), Porsche Cayman, Z4 Coupe, Mini Cooper S (sort of), Civic Si (aspiring at least), Corvette (yep, I said it), Viper, Honda S2000, Acura NSX, e46 and previous M3 & e46 ZHP (borderline for ZHP, but intention is there), and cars of similar ilk.

Hopefully the 135i will join this group.

The 335i has been ejected, so BMW needs to fill the slot!

Well said - I pray that BMW does us right with the 135i

[Robert]

My definition of a driver's car is a car that has minimum intrusions and maximum driver's involvement. Therefore least electronic assist the better. It should also be a car that gives the driver maximum satisfaction.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

Now we're comparing the 1/3/535's to GT2's, and Ferrari's????? :iono: If you're looking for an offering from BMW to be on par with those cars, I'd say only a CSL is designed with those kinds of aspirations, and that's a real stretch. Why would an everyday average consumer car be put in the same sentence as these cars??? Who will be struggling to pick between these? If you are, ummm... my vote is for the F430 Scuderia over the 135i.

If we're not comparing segments, then this is my vote for a "true" drivers car!!

We aren't COMPARING anything except driver's cars to driver's cars.

A driver's car is a driver's car, regardless of segment.

Either it IS a driver's car, or it ISN'T.

The cars in the segment don't define it by comparison. The definition is absolute.

Just because the Altima 3.5 is fastest and sportiest in its segment, doesn't make it a driver's car, it only makes it better than the other cars in its segment.

Is the 750i a driver's car because its fast and has the best handling among large luxury cars? Hell no! It's still a LUXURY CAR.

The 335i is a luxury GT. It's not a driver's car. It probably handles best in its segment, but so does the 750i!

Once again, I have no interest whatsoever in how a car compares to some arbitrary classification.

I just care how the car drives. Period.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by aesthetect

some people do care about segments. if you could care less why dont you go buy a cayman S and be done with it? because you want the practicality of a backseat, reasonable price tage and decent trunk space ala foldable rear seats.. then youre shopping in a segment!!! :eyebulge:
i see where youre going but its an impractical line of thought and youre hardheadedly ignoring everyones comments.

I'm not ignoring anyone - I am refuting their points.

If you say "the 335i has the best driving experience in its segment," I'd probably agree.

But calling it a driver's car is at best entertaining, unless of course, you have a very low threshold for that definition.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by kurichan

We aren't COMPARING anything except driver's cars to driver's cars.

A driver's car is a driver's car, regardless of segment.

Either it IS a driver's car, or it ISN'T.

The cars in the segment don't define it by comparison. The definition is absolute.

Just because the Altima 3.5 is fastest and sportiest in its segment, doesn't make it a driver's car, it only makes it better than the other cars in its segment.

Is the 750i a driver's car because its fast and has the best handling among large luxury cars? Hell no! It's still a LUXURY CAR.

The 335i is a luxury GT. It's not a driver's car. It probably handles best in its segment, but so does the 750i!

Once again, I have no interest whatsoever in how a car compares to some arbitrary classification.

I just care how the car drives. Period.

The definition of a drivers car is by no means an absolute, like you are implying.

But since you are putting it forth as such, I would love hear how the great Kurichan can distinguish between such minutia. Is there a weight limit? Must it have non-power assisted steering? Must it not have a CD player?

This is a rather semantic argument.....

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by aesthetect

some people do care about segments.

I do too, when shopping for a family car. Just not when shopping for a "driver's car."

What excites me about the 135i is the prospect of a smallish attractive driver's car that gets back to the BMW composed/balanced feel that I enjoy so much.

if you could care less why dont you go buy a cayman S and be done with it?

I did. I own one of the ultimate driver's cars already - 1250 pounds, 170 horsepower, mid-engine, no power steering, no power brakes, manual transmission, tons of go, and sublime drifts.

because you want the practicality of a backseat, reasonable price tage and decent trunk space ala foldable rear seats.. then youre shopping in a segment!!! :eyebulge:

Wrong. Perhaps right for some people, but you're reading me wrong.

i see where youre going but its an impractical line of thought and youre hardheadedly ignoring everyones comments.

Hahaha. I am so hardhearted. I must be crushing people's spirits with this debate!

You call my line of thought impractical. I think of it as uncompromising. The concept of a driver's car is drivability over practicality with minimum compromise.

regardless, 200 lbs is meh. i think the only question worth resolving here is how different the suspension setups will be between 135 and 335. opinions?

Weight isn't everything. Wheelbase and track have a huge effect on driving feel, which is why the 335i has become so disappointing. It's just too big.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by LonghornTX

The definition of a drivers car is by no means an absolute, like you are implying.

I thought I stated it - did I only imply it? I'll be more careful from now on.

But since you are putting it forth as such, I would love hear how the great Kurichan can distinguish between such minutia. Is there a weight limit? Must it have non-power assisted steering? Must it not have a CD player?

You don't have to start with the snotty stuff and make it personal. Please stay on subject.

As in my OP, I said we should WORK ON a definition. I chose that phrase carefully. It would be great if we could work on it together.

This is a rather semantic argument...

Yes, that happens when you use words and are trying to define something, as per my original post!

I'll give it a go to get us started.

Driver's Car:

• Prioritizes performance driving dynamics over other aspects
• Has a tendency to be smaller and lighter, as such physical properties contribute to positive driving dynamics
• Does not usurp control from driver via computers or other mechanical devices
• Does not cover up endemic driving dynamic flaws with electronic devices (I think an LSD is a good example of an exception)
• Price is not a consideration (a driver's car can be cheap just as well as expensive)
• One car can be more a driver's car than another, but a car does not become a driver's car by virtue of the other cars in its segment being less capable
• [add more here]