October Car & Driver Article on 1-Series

[othercaracobra]

Originally Posted by grant

Maybe so (I've never driven an M1), but I bet the steering feel and handling are not approached by today's BMW's in terms of subjective feel.

I know from experience that Modern Porsches do not come close to providing the tactile driving experience of the older ones (I've owned both simultaneously and there is no comparison, in favor of the old car).

We are on the same page. You don't get much more tactile than your Porsche or my Cobra. I've never driven an M1 either, but I am sure your supposition that it has intense tactile feedback is right on.

My point is that even with that feel, the newer cars are much easier to drive and drive faster than the older cars. The consumer and industry have eveloved the cars in such a manner, like it or not.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by othercaracobra

Yeah, and I'll be able to get a 135i Coupe for less than $35K... So, what's the problem?

You say that as if the US MSRP has already been set...

[othercaracobra]

Originally Posted by MPower

You say that as if the US MSRP has already been set...

True. I'll save this thread and we can re-visit after the price has been set if you are concerned about me being right or wrong. :tongue:

[1ster]

I dunno. Audi sells the V6 Quattro TT for $42,900... with no options. That's a car built on a Golf chassis with 250hp. Sure it has AWD, but that's not good for more than $2k. I'm sure the TT will be cross-shopped with the 135i, and the BMW will undoubtedly be a whole lot faster on a race track.

Why wouldn't a fully optioned 135i top out at $42k, then?

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by 1ster

I dunno. Audi sells the V6 Quattro TT for $42,900... with no options. That's a car built on a Golf chassis with 250hp. Sure it has AWD, but that's not good for more than $2k. I'm sure the TT will be cross-shopped with the 135i, and the BMW will undoubtedly be a whole lot faster on a race track.

Ya, and those cars are not selling in the US. I went to test drive a TT the other day and the manager said the dealer had been dead lately. The TT is massively overpriced and that is no justification for a high base price for the 135i.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by MPower

The TT is massively overpriced

I'll agree with you there! Especially when I can get a R32 with the same powertrain and, when the TT is similarly optioned, get the R32 for $15,000 less than the TT.

I expect the 135i will start at $36,995. Enough to make it hurt, but close enough to $35k that plenty of people will bite anyway.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by adc

Not so fast, pardner. :tongue:

Don't worry...I'm hanging around. I never ditch a spirited debate. :smile:

[dumesday4u]

I expect the 135i will start at $36,995. Enough to make it hurt, but close enough to $35k that plenty of people will bite anyway.

damn if its THAT much i wouldnt even remotely consider the 135i.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by dumesday4u

damn if its THAT much i wouldnt even remotely consider the 135i.

Remember that the 135i comes nearly-loaded. M Suspension, body kit, xenons, etc. I just can't see BMW letting it walk out the door for $33,995.

The 128i will be the volume and price leader. The 135i is the halo, near-M car to generate enthusiasm for the range.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by 1ster

Remember that the 135i comes nearly-loaded. M Suspension, body kit, xenons, etc. I just can't see BMW letting it walk out the door for $33,995.

The 128i will be the volume and price leader. The 135i is the halo, near-M car to generate enthusiasm for the range.

Agreed!

Some people believe that the 135i is a near-M car and will be priced accordingly, while others believe that it's an entry level car and that there is no way that BMW will price it anywhere close to the 3-series. I'm in the first camp, but this is an old argument that unfortunately won't be settled until the prices are released. :iono:

[mikeo]

Tick, tock, tick, tock...

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Agreed!

Some people believe that the 135i is a near-M car and will be priced accordingly, while others believe that it's an entry level car and that there is no way that BMW will price it anywhere close to the 3-series. I'm in the first camp, but this is an old argument that unfortunately won't be settled until the prices are released. :iono:

Were in the same camp.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Some people believe that the 135i is a near-M car and will be priced accordingly, while others believe that it's an entry level car and that there is no way that BMW will price it anywhere close to the 3-series.

Let's analyze this comment, starting with the 135i as a "near-M car" and "priced accordingly":

I would say that to be an M-Car you would need to have these components:

1. Unique, naturally aspirated engine: 135i misses on both counts with the N54 being a large-scale production engine and, of course, being twin-turbocharged

2. M Differential-lock: An electronically simulated diff-effect is no where near the same as the superb M-differential. If BMW sold that differential in the aftermarket, I would imagine that the differential alone would cost upwards of 3,000 dollars. Very, very impressive unit. 135i does not have it which every M in the last decade has had.

3. Unique chassis. The 135i, even with its aerodynamics kit, has no differing chassis changes when compared to the 128i. The 135i-specific suspension is branded M Sport but there is a large difference between being M Sport and a real M car. The only aspect of the 135i that hints at "near-M" status are the brakes which will certainly be unique to the 135i.

4. No Runflats. This actually has yet to be confirmed but an M Car would never use runflats. If the 135i has runflats, you will know how serious the "M connection" is.

5. Judicious use of weight saving materials. Carbon fibre is certainly a popular choice, but every M Car uses a large amount of aluminum and advanced plastic-like materials. The 135i will certainly take advantage of some aluminum components, but it wont have the carbon-fibre roof its it M3 and M6 relatives.

So that is barely 1/5 (1 being the suspension components and brakes). However, the suspension components are not things that cost extra to develop. For example, the damper settings dont determine the cost of the suspension. Therefore, charging extra for them is ridiculous. Note: in other models where there will be two suspensions offered, there is an additional cost to cover the need to develop two suspensions for the 128i for example. The 135i, however, will be M Sport only which means that it costs BMW nothing more as they only have to develop one suspension.

So "near-M car"? I highly doubt it. No question, it will be a great performing car. But it is no more "near-M car" than a 116i M Sport is. Now, let's see take a look at the "entry level" car claim:

1. Engines: Both the 128i and 135i use highly produced BMW engines that are used in every model BMW offers. The 135i has the advantage of a slightly less produced engine being only offered in the 135i, 335i, 535i. Still, between the three models, it makes for a highly produced engine such as those you would find in a Ford Focus and its Duratec lineup.

2. Interior. BMW is using typical BMW style with a highly simplified design with cheaper materials than those in the 3-Series. Remember that when the 1 Series was first introduced, its target was the VW Golf for the quality of materials. That makes it well made but not super luxurious like a 3 or 5 Series. Certainly befitting an entry level car.

3. Exterior. The dimensions of the car are around 10 inches shorter than the E92, about the same height, and about the same width. At 171.6 inches long, the 1 Coupe is shorter than a Porsche Boxster and Cayman, and about 7 inches (or more) shorter than most entry-level sedans such as the Mazda3, Honda Civic, and VW Rabbit. With the way safety standards are affecting the size and weight of cars, it would be nearly impossible to make a smaller RWD 2+2.

Certainly, then, it looks as if the 1 Series is closer to an entry-level model than a "near-M car". Especially when you consider that there will never be a smaller, more affordable car than the 1 Coupe, it is very hard to claim that the 135i is anything but an entry-level model. :wink:

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by MPower

Let's analyze this comment, starting with the 135i as a "near-M car" and "priced accordingly":

I would say that to be an M-Car you would need to have these components:

1. Unique, naturally aspirated engine: 135i misses on both counts with the N54 being a large-scale production engine and, of course, being twin-turbocharged

2. M Differential-lock: An electronically simulated diff-effect is no where near the same as the superb M-differential. If BMW sold that differential in the aftermarket, I would imagine that the differential alone would cost upwards of 3,000 dollars. Very, very impressive unit. 135i does not have it which every M in the last decade has had.

3. Unique chassis. The 135i, even with its aerodynamics kit, has no differing chassis changes when compared to the 128i. The 135i-specific suspension is branded M Sport but there is a large difference between being M Sport and a real M car. The only aspect of the 135i that hints at "near-M" status are the brakes which will certainly be unique to the 135i.

4. No Runflats. This actually has yet to be confirmed but an M Car would never use runflats. If the 135i has runflats, you will know how serious the "M connection" is.

5. Judicious use of weight saving materials. Carbon fibre is certainly a popular choice, but every M Car uses a large amount of aluminum and advanced plastic-like materials. The 135i will certainly take advantage of some aluminum components, but it wont have the carbon-fibre roof its it M3 and M6 relatives.

So that is barely 1/5 (1 being the suspension components and brakes). However, the suspension components are not things that cost extra to develop. For example, the damper settings dont determine the cost of the suspension. Therefore, charging extra for them is ridiculous. Note: in other models where there will be two suspensions offered, there is an additional cost to cover the need to develop two suspensions for the 128i for example. The 135i, however, will be M Sport only which means that it costs BMW nothing more as they only have to develop one suspension.

So "near-M car"? I highly doubt it. No question, it will be a great performing car. But it is no more "near-M car" than a 116i M Sport is. Now, let's see take a look at the "entry level" car claim:

1. Engines: Both the 128i and 135i use highly produced BMW engines that are used in every model BMW offers apart from the 7-Series. The 135i has the advantage of a slightly less produced engine being only offered in the 135i, 335i, 535i. Still, between the three models, it makes for a highly produced engine such as those you would find in a Ford Focus and its Duratec lineup.

2. Interior. BMW is using typical BMW style with a highly simplified design with cheaper materials than those in the 3-Series. Remember that when the 1 Series was first introduced, its target was the VW Golf for the quality of materials. That makes it well made but not super luxurious like a 3 or 5 Series. Certainly befitting an entry level car.

3. Exterior. The dimensions of the car are around 10 inches shorter than the E92, about the same height, and about the same width. At 171.6 inches long, the 1 Coupe is shorter than a Porsche Boxster and Cayman, and about 7 inches (or more) shorter than most entry-level sedans such as the Mazda3, Honda Civic, and VW Rabbit. With the way safety standards are affecting the size and weight of cars, it would be nearly impossible to make a smaller RWD 2+2.

Certainly, then, it looks as if the 1 Series is closer to an entry-level model than a "near-M car". Especially when you consider that there will never be a smaller, more affordable car than the 1 Coupe, it is very hard to claim that the 135i is anything but an entry-level model. :wink:

Ohhhh noes, the voice of reason... :tongue:

You realize that the "near-M" drivel is going to persist until 1's actually hit the lots. Then the realization will set in that fit, finish, and materials are "kinda near-3" vice "near-M". Tack a $38K-$40K MSRP on that and customers are gonna slide right on over to an attractive 335i lease. Wonder what the residual will be on a 1-series?

[NewhouseEnt]

Originally Posted by 128er

30K is way too expensive for a 128er (haha my name) and 40K is almost a 335i!

I actually leased my 335i 'Step' Sport for $41,500. (I will remind everyone that the sedan step is faster then the sticks in case some of you cough up the proverbial "that's a sedan" remark.)
Anyway, if it comes to $38,500 for a fairly equipped 135i, only an idiot would get one. Especially on a purchase... One can certainly get a loaded up 335i for below that.
The residuals will be much lower for a 135i than a 335i as well. Although BMW will probably fake the residual and make it super high the first year, and the leases may be very attractive. MIGHT.

[1ster]

People are claiming near-M. Not M. Let's spin the analysis a different way. The 135i will be faster than the 335i, yet the 335i is not that much slower than the new M3. The 135i has a monster brake set-up, one that's arguably better than the M3's. The 135i is built on the same platform as the 3-Series, which means it's built on the same platform as the M3.

Will it feel as "special" or exclusive as the M3? Of course not. Does it get the fancy diff? Nope. But, based on the mechanical specs, it will be damn near as fast as an M3. That's enough to qualify as "near-M" to me.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by 1ster

People are claiming near-M. Not M. Let's spin the analysis a different way. The 135i will be faster than the 335i, yet the 335i is not that much slower than the new M3. The 135i has a monster brake set-up, one that's arguably better than the M3's. The 135i is built on the same platform as the 3-Series, which means it's built on the same platform as the M3.

Will it feel as "special" or exclusive as the M3? Of course not. Does it get the fancy diff? Nope. But, based on the mechanical specs, it will be damn near as fast as an M3.

Ah... and this is what leads people to believe that a high price is justifiable. You take the figures of the 135i being as fast or faster than the 335i (which, in and of itself, is a tad slower than the E46 M3) and then take this remarkable leap with regards to price. People are making the mistake of putting the price of a car relative to the performance of the car. In this case, the 135i is a very fast car, therefore, it must be priced higher than you would think for an entry level car. That's not being rational. What I was showing with my previous post is that the performance of the car truly is very high but the production costs should not be very high, especially in comparison to an M car. The 135i uses a very generic collection of typical BMW parts with the one exception being the brakes. It would be outrageous to think that the 135i would justify a premium purely because it is a fast car. Using that same logic, a Corvette, or a Viper SRT-10, or a WRX STi, or a Mitsubishi Evo should sell for a hell of a lot more.

[1ster]

Since when is there a correlation between cost and price in BMW Land? BMW already sells its American line-up for a pittance due to the poor dollar/euro exchange rate.

I see it this way: the 135i will not be cheaper than the VW R32. The R32 costs $33k. The 135i will not be cheaper than that. Period. Even though the R32 has leather, nav, and AWD standard. It will also be more expensive than the Evo X, which is likely to be priced around $35k when it comes out.

I know we'll see who's right around January, when orders start going in, but I'm still betting on a starting price of $36,995. That still puts the 135i $4,500 below a 335i.

[theslik1]

It seems that we have a cadre of potential 135i owners who can't feel good about purchasing the car unless BMW tacks a "just because" premium onto the sticker. They then can properly differentiate themselves from the lowly hoi polloi who buy a reasonably priced 128i. Gotta elevate yourself somehow...

Wake-up call: If you're looking for exclusivity and cachet with your high performance, you're looking at the wrong car in the wrong segment...period. One of the reasons the 135i intrigued me was the opportunity it presents (potentially) to obtain a true high value, high performance German automobile with a slight toning down of the badge queen look-at-me factor. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO (channeling John Belushi :tongue. God forbid that BMW should price the car as a solid bang-for-the-buck value, right? Because then it wouldn't be "premium" (per the windy and nonsensical ZweierCoupe). Because then it wouldn't be as exclusive as say...a 335i. We all know how rare 335's are...

People, the 1-series...every single model iteration...is BMW's most cheaply produced mass-market automobile. That hard fact will become readily apparent once they hit showroom floors. All that remains to be seen is if BMW is serious about selling the 1 or maintaining a threadbare and inappropriate illusion of exclusivity.

[atr_hugo]

If Kia made a rear wheel drive - twin-turbo inline 6, great handling - great driving-feel car that didn't look like an Aztek I'd consider it alongside the 135i. I could care less about the badge on the grille. If the intention of BMW is to get younger buyers of Asian imports looking to buy a BMW import than they'll have to price the 1er with care.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by theslik1

It seems that we have a cadre of potential 135i owners who can't feel good about purchasing the car unless BMW tacks a "just because" premium onto the sticker. They then can properly differentiate themselves from the lowly hoi polloi who buy a reasonably priced 128i. Gotta elevate yourself somehow...

Wake-up call: If you're looking for exclusivity and cachet with your high performance, you're looking at the wrong car in the wrong segment...period. One of the reasons the 135i intrigued me was the opportunity it presents (potentially) to obtain a true high value, high performance German automobile with a slight toning down of the badge queen look-at-me factor. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO (channeling John Belushi :tongue. God forbid that BMW should price the car as a solid bang-for-the-buck value, right? Because then it wouldn't be "premium" (per the windy and nonsensical ZweierCoupe). Because then it wouldn't be as exclusive as say...a 335i. We all know how rare 335's are...

People, the 1-series...every single model iteration...is BMW's most cheaply produced mass-market automobile. That hard fact will become readily apparent once they hit showroom floors. All that remains to be seen is if BMW is serious about selling the 1 or maintaining a threadbare and inappropriate illusion of exclusivity.

Wow... that was certainly an interesting retort.

I have no desire to pay an overly inflated price for a 135i and I'm sure no one else does either. Whether the price is over or under $35K is anyone's guess right now. Frankly I'm really hoping that it's under $35K, but unfortunately wishes don't always come true.

Anyway I really don't need Dr. Freud Jr. explaining why I think that the 135i might be priced higher than hoped. Please feel free to disagree, but I'll pass on the pycho-babble.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

If Kia made a rear wheel drive - twin-turbo inline 6, great handling - great driving-feel car that didn't look like an Aztek I'd consider it alongside the 135i. I could care less about the badge on the grille. If the intention of BMW is to get younger buyers of Asian imports looking to buy a BMW import than they'll have to price the 1er with care.

+1