Why "common" mechanics are better than most Indys

[jeddo45]

We have a 1er in our family, and it's a darn good car. But the dreaded water pump went out at 100k. My sister who owns the car didn't have the money for the expensive repair.

We towed it to our trusty mechanic. He ordered genuine replacement. 600 bucks for parts and labor and done in a few hours.

When my 335i's water pump goes, I'm taking it to him. My Indy quoted me 1200 for it. Ridiculous.

I think Indy's (at least here in California) charge way to close to the dealership which at that point, why go to an Indy?

Curious to know who has paid what for their water pump replacement parts and labor?

[HyeWarrior]

I DIY'd mine, but I think anything over $800 is too much

[10"]

I generally avoid common mechanics as they don't understand complexities of german cars. I might be generalizing but I'm not
Going to put my beast into the hands of someone unknowing of the quirks.

Indie mechanics have cheaper per hour rates but are usually much slower and end up charging MORE labor somehow. The other sucky thing about indie shops is that they:
(A) don't stand behind their work like dealers do
(B) sometimes cut corners to do a job cheaper

I've used really "great" indie shops in the past and honestly I prefer to use dealers now. Easier to get appointments, I get a loaner every time, and I don't have to deal with BS. Just have to find a fair and solid dealership; which I have. Even if I pay a bit more at least I have warranty on their work and often they will give discounts if they were wrong about something. My car also doesn't sit in a repair shop for 1 week and usually gets done in a day. My time is more valuable...

I paid $1000 at a BMW dealer for my 1M's thermostat and water pump to get replaced. I hope they did your thermostat too. Getting stuff done is one thing; making sure it was done right is totally different.

[02Pilot]

You can usually get away with going to a competent generalist for simple repairs, but when it comes to diagnostics or anything that requires interfacing with the computer system, you need a specialist; it's a rare corner mechanic who's got ISTA or INPA. Specialists may also spot looming issues that generalists miss through lack of familiarity with a particular model.

Good indy shops are a great resource, but they are not always as easy to find as a dealership. In my experience, I'd rather go to my long-time indy than the local dealer any day of the week (see the PCV recall thread for details of my last dealer visit).

[germ]

First, I try to do what I can myself.

Second, for routine stuff like oil change, buy the materials and go to a gas station.

For the more serious stuff, I have a good indie shop. He knows the car inside out, I feel more confident than with the stealer. But you are right, in CA (Bay Area especially), everything is more expensive, including car mechanics. The indie shop is 50%-70% of what the stealer charges (and add rental car cost).

We live in an expensive area and drive an out-of-warranty BMW...we pay for the privilege.

[Ginger_Extract]

Anyone in SoCal not taking their N54/N55 cars to Rob at Speed Logic in Fullerton for repairs is wasting money.

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

Anyone in SoCal not taking their N54/N55 cars to Rob at Speed Logic in Fullerton for repairs is wasting money.

I'll look him up. Thanks for the tip.

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by 10"

I generally avoid common mechanics as they don't understand complexities of german cars. I might be generalizing but I'm not
Going to put my beast into the hands of someone unknowing of the quirks.

Indie mechanics have cheaper per hour rates but are usually much slower and end up charging MORE labor somehow. The other sucky thing about indie shops is that they:
(A) don't stand behind their work like dealers do
(B) sometimes cut corners to do a job cheaper

I've used really "great" indie shops in the past and honestly I prefer to use dealers now. Easier to get appointments, I get a loaner every time, and I don't have to deal with BS. Just have to find a fair and solid dealership; which I have. Even if I pay a bit more at least I have warranty on their work and often they will give discounts if they were wrong about something. My car also doesn't sit in a repair shop for 1 week and usually gets done in a day. My time is more valuable...

I paid $1000 at a BMW dealer for my 1M's thermostat and water pump to get replaced. I hope they did your thermostat too. Getting stuff done is one thing; making sure it was done right is totally different.

I've been looking at dealer prices. The only thing that gets me is the BMW dealers near me all charge different prices for the same job. I don't understand why but they are all 1,600 or more. The indy's that I was talking to were extremely close to that price so we just thought screw it lets ask our regular mechanic. He replaced it all thermostat included for 600 bucks. But if the dealer was close to that, I'd definitely just cough up the extra cash and go with it because you know for sure its going to get done right with a good warranty.

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by 02Pilot

You can usually get away with going to a competent generalist for simple repairs, but when it comes to diagnostics or anything that requires interfacing with the computer system, you need a specialist; it's a rare corner mechanic who's got ISTA or INPA. Specialists may also spot looming issues that generalists miss through lack of familiarity with a particular model.

Good indy shops are a great resource, but they are not always as easy to find as a dealership. In my experience, I'd rather go to my long-time indy than the local dealer any day of the week (see the PCV recall thread for details of my last dealer visit).

Good point about programming. I do understand that there are some things a common mechanic won't have. But I don't get the need for a special Indy for your mechanical repairs that happen to most cars. It just taking things apart and putting them back together, maybe a little more complicated.

Why pay a premium?

[02Pilot]

Originally Posted by jeddo45

Good point about programming. I do understand that there are some things a common mechanic won't have. But I don't get the need for a special Indy for your mechanical repairs that happen to most cars. It just taking things apart and putting them back together, maybe a little more complicated.

Why pay a premium?

Because you're building a relationship. For the maybe 80% of repairs that are straight-forward, sure, you don't need specialized knowledge. But when you need it, you need it, and I'd rather go to an indy that knows my maintenance history, my driving style, my desires, and my mods when he starts working on my car. I turn ~95% of my own wrenches, but when I have to take the car in I've got a 25+ year history with my indy that means I trust him implicitly to do what needs doing.

[iminhell1]

Originally Posted by 02Pilot

Because you're building a relationship. For the maybe 80% of repairs that are straight-forward, sure, you don't need specialized knowledge. But when you need it, you need it, and I'd rather go to an indy that knows my maintenance history, my driving style, my desires, and my mods when he starts working on my car. I turn ~95% of my own wrenches, but when I have to take the car in I've got a 25+ year history with my indy that means I trust him implicitly to do what needs doing.

Are you though?
If the relationship consists of you constantly bringing in damaged goods, what effort are you really putting in? I mean it's really no different than the Jon/Hooker relationship. Services are rendered, cash changes hands and you're on your way. 'Til next week the wife is away on business and you need your fix.


Yes it might be nice to believe that your primary mechanic knows your car. But there is nothing wrong with stepping out on him to make sure. There is no such thing as an expert mechanic and no mechanic is infallible. A second opinion is a good thing.




Someone up there had mentioned indy's cutting corners and implied that dealerships don't.
I'm sorry but your world of cupcakes and rainbows is untrue. EVERY mechanic cuts corners. Anyone who has been a wrench for any length of time (sans right out of school) knows that there are steps in the 'book' you can circumvent or faster ways to get the same job done.
The shop is paid on book time, not actual working time. So the more book time they can fit in a day the more money they make. And when the mechanics are paid a percentage of book time ...
It's an incentive system for good reason.


Now most things you can basically diagnose over the internet. That doesn't take a good mechanic to repair/replace. Where a good mechanic really shines is in the diagnosis process.
Lets say you bring in a car with a suspension noise in the front right. Sure he'll find the noise and replace the part (not difficult). But is there any interaction as to why the part failed? Was it due to taking added load from another failing part or something misaligned? That is the kind of stuff a 'good' mechanic follows through on.

[02Pilot]

I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm naive or simple because I have developed a working business relationship with a person I've known for a long time. I stopped by his shop earlier this week to schedule an inspection. We chatted for a few minutes about his recently taking his 2002 to the Vintage in NC. He asked me about finding some air filters for a customer car with Weber carbs. Do I pay him? Sure. I expect to be paid for my time too. Does he let all his customers hang out in the shop, or point out time-saving tips or things to look for when he knows the customer is going to do the work and he's not going to earn a dime from it? Hardly.

If you choose not to try to build a relationship with a shop, fine. I prefer to know the person who's turning wrenches on my car, and that he knows me. But that's personal preference and conscious choice, not naivete.

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by 02Pilot

Because you're building a relationship. For the maybe 80% of repairs that are straight-forward, sure, you don't need specialized knowledge. But when you need it, you need it, and I'd rather go to an indy that knows my maintenance history, my driving style, my desires, and my mods when he starts working on my car. I turn ~95% of my own wrenches, but when I have to take the car in I've got a 25+ year history with my indy that means I trust him implicitly to do what needs doing.

Yes, I agree with your statement that I would like to know who is turning the wrench on my car, but lets be honest: he's a business owner before he's your friend. I understand that my relationship with my mechanic ends right when I walk past the garage doors to his shop. And guess what, its the same with him. You're a customer first, then his friend.

But I refuse to go to the indy who "knows what he's doing," who has an incredible resume, but wants to charge me more than double of what my "common mechanic" does because he works on these cars everyday. Not worth it. My money is more important to me. A friendship is not going to get me a better price.

At the end of the day, the waterpump/tstat got done, car drives well, and I saved quite a bit of money. Who wouldn't do that?

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

Are you though?
If the relationship consists of you constantly bringing in damaged goods, what effort are you really putting in? I mean it's really no different than the Jon/Hooker relationship. Services are rendered, cash changes hands and you're on your way. 'Til next week the wife is away on business and you need your fix.


Yes it might be nice to believe that your primary mechanic knows your car. But there is nothing wrong with stepping out on him to make sure. There is no such thing as an expert mechanic and no mechanic is infallible. A second opinion is a good thing.




Someone up there had mentioned indy's cutting corners and implied that dealerships don't.
I'm sorry but your world of cupcakes and rainbows is untrue. EVERY mechanic cuts corners. Anyone who has been a wrench for any length of time (sans right out of school) knows that there are steps in the 'book' you can circumvent or faster ways to get the same job done.
The shop is paid on book time, not actual working time. So the more book time they can fit in a day the more money they make. And when the mechanics are paid a percentage of book time ...
It's an incentive system for good reason.


Now most things you can basically diagnose over the internet. That doesn't take a good mechanic to repair/replace. Where a good mechanic really shines is in the diagnosis process.
Lets say you bring in a car with a suspension noise in the front right. Sure he'll find the noise and replace the part (not difficult). But is there any interaction as to why the part failed? Was it due to taking added load from another failing part or something misaligned? That is the kind of stuff a 'good' mechanic follows through on.

Couldn't have stated it better.

Less time= more money.

That goes for ANY service based business.

[HyeWarrior]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

Anyone in SoCal not taking their N54/N55 cars to Rob at Speed Logic in Fullerton for repairs is wasting money.

I've heard good things about this place, just kind of out of the way unfortunately for me

[10"]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

Are you though?
If the relationship consists of you constantly bringing in damaged goods, what effort are you really putting in? I mean it's really no different than the Jon/Hooker relationship. Services are rendered, cash changes hands and you're on your way. 'Til next week the wife is away on business and you need your fix.


Yes it might be nice to believe that your primary mechanic knows your car. But there is nothing wrong with stepping out on him to make sure. There is no such thing as an expert mechanic and no mechanic is infallible. A second opinion is a good thing.




Someone up there had mentioned indy's cutting corners and implied that dealerships don't.
I'm sorry but your world of cupcakes and rainbows is untrue. EVERY mechanic cuts corners. Anyone who has been a wrench for any length of time (sans right out of school) knows that there are steps in the 'book' you can circumvent or faster ways to get the same job done.
The shop is paid on book time, not actual working time. So the more book time they can fit in a day the more money they make. And when the mechanics are paid a percentage of book time ...
It's an incentive system for good reason.


Now most things you can basically diagnose over the internet. That doesn't take a good mechanic to repair/replace. Where a good mechanic really shines is in the diagnosis process.
Lets say you bring in a car with a suspension noise in the front right. Sure he'll find the noise and replace the part (not difficult). But is there any interaction as to why the part failed? Was it due to taking added load from another failing part or something misaligned? That is the kind of stuff a 'good' mechanic follows through on.

You missed my point. Not talking about practical short cuts I am talking about accountability. If something happens after work at an indie shop they will often charge more labour; if something happens after dealer work they will work to resolve it with less chances of additional charge. Add to that coupons, specials, a good service agent who tries to help and I actually get comfort from knowing people are being held accountable for their work. Who holds indie shops accountable? No one really.

Indie shops aren't prepared to take on accountability the same way dealers are. They are smaller shops with a couple employees...smaller businesses. Sure you get a better deal; but there is always a price to pay. Not all repairs are straight forward.

It might be cupcakes and rainbows to you; but for me it means I have a 1M with almost 90K miles that feels tight as a zipper still...I have no complaints. Could I have had the same success with an indie shop? Sure it's possible—-but it would have taken more effort with less certainty. Peace of mind is worth more than you think...

[desertman123]

Honestly I've learned everywhere there's hacks. From dealers, Indy's, "30 year certified BMW nut fucker" to billykid's backyard build.

Just a matter of finding one who isn't out to screw you.

[jeddo45]

Originally Posted by 10"

You missed my point. Not talking about practical short cuts I am talking about accountability. If something happens after work at an indie shop they will often charge more labour; if something happens after dealer work they will work to resolve it with less chances of additional charge. Add to that coupons, specials, a good service agent who tries to help and I actually get comfort from knowing people are being held accountable for their work. Who holds indie shops accountable? No one really.

Indie shops aren't prepared to take on accountability the same way dealers are. They are smaller shops with a couple employees...smaller businesses. Sure you get a better deal; but there is always a price to pay. Not all repairs are straight forward.

It might be cupcakes and rainbows to you; but for me it means I have a 1M with almost 90K miles that feels tight as a zipper still...I have no complaints. Could I have had the same success with an indie shop? Sure it's possible—-but it would have taken more effort with less certainty. Peace of mind is worth more than you think...

If you could afford the dealer, then by all means use them for everything you just said. More responsibility, and better coverage all around if something goes sour (although some dealers are very dishonest, but not all).

There are some great Indy shops that have ex-dealership service workers who know everything about our cars. But it comes as a premium that I'll be honest enough to say I'm not willing to pay for a 10 year old car.

When I do get my dream BMW (M6 but probably M8 by then) I'm sure my opinion will change about the dealer.

[iminhell1]

Well my buddies 'indy' shop warranties everything he touches for 2 years, unlimited mileage. I honestly don't know of anyone else that does this. But, he does light and medium duty diesel only.


Any shop that's a NAPA Autocare center will have to warranty parts and labor, for 1 year IIRC.
O'Reillys/Parts City has a part/labor warranty also. But it's been years since I've dealt with them, I don't recall exactly how it works.

These things making it to the customer are up to the shop though. I know there are those shops that would bill a customer and make a labor claim. They didn't have a good reputation with anyone; out the screw everyone over.



FWIW, I have had my car to the dealer 2 times for work. Only because I had a aftermarket warranty and they'd dealt with the warranty company before, knew the hoops. Other than that I have not had my cars at a shop since the 90's.
But it's coming to the point that I don't want to work on my cars. So I'm at a point where my opinions will come to bite me in the ass.

[zx10guy]

desertman is correct. You'll find bad apples in any segment....whether it be the dealer, a specialized shop, or a general mechanic's shop.

I know a friend who is a BMW dealer tech. The stories he tells me..... And with the nature of how many dealers are operated or forced to operate, they're driving out the experienced seasoned mechanics anyways. Many of these mechanics either find another career or open up their own shop becoming an indie.

I also have a friend that owned a general mechanic's shop. He did most to all of the wrenching depending on the cycle of his shop (ie if at the time he had a service writer and/or an extra mechanic on hand). He was an ASE Master Mechanic and worked on a ton of different cars. Extremely smart. Took much of the same training the BMW dealer techs do such as going to Bosch training. He got good enough where his reputation was that he was good at diagnosing electrical/computer related issues. The local Ford dealer actually sent jobs to him because he was faster than having one of their techs try to figure things out. What got him in trouble was his love of modifying cars. I got to see the ugly side of when a shop takes on this type of business. Eventually, he stopped doing that type of work but the business just wore him out. He decided to sell the business and get out of it totally. I saw all the pressures he had to deal with and was shocked at how much the insurance he had to carry on the business was killing him. This was on top of all the other fees that were mounting.

The one thing I've found that will clue you in on the type of work you'll get from a particular shop. Ask to look at their service bays. If it looks like a bomb went off in there and no has ever bothered to clean up anything, then go some where else. The shops that I found that do quality work have always had very clean service bays. It's this small attention to detail that gives you an insight to the mindset of the mechanics and the owner.

ETA: Forgot to add. The friend that owned his own shop. We only became friends through the course of me doing business there. Got to be pretty close friends to the point he was one of my guests at my wedding.

[10"]

Originally Posted by jeddo45

If you could afford the dealer, then by all means use them for everything you just said. More responsibility, and better coverage all around if something goes sour (although some dealers are very dishonest, but not all).

There are some great Indy shops that have ex-dealership service workers who know everything about our cars. But it comes as a premium that I'll be honest enough to say I'm not willing to pay for a 10 year old car.

When I do get my dream BMW (M6 but probably M8 by then) I'm sure my opinion will change about the dealer.

It does change when you get your dream car. The 1M was mine and I stopped using indie service centers after getting it...I didn't want to compromise and I wanted a full, on the record, service history. They have always treated me well—-because I think they can see I really care for the car.

[Lexington]

In my experience you can't count on a dealer necessarily doing the work right the first time either.