1 vs 2 series

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by swunder

I can't even believe the engine noise through speakers is... a thing. I can't effectively exactly explain why its so bad/stupid/pathetic. Its all so fake, so non-enthusiast oriented, so... completely missing the entire point of not only BMW's but sports cars and driving in general for the last 100 years.

The fake noise and 500 M badges plastered all over the entire line of non M mxxx cars are just so blatantly targeted at kids and uninformed people that will think they are driving a real M2/3/4. It waters down the entire brand and M mystique/heritage.

Its all a shame too, because I'm sure the m235 and m240 are awesome cars but I'll just never get past the marketing bull**** ingrained into them.

I drive a 135is and am not happy with the M's everywhere - but its only getting worse as new models come out.

/rant

Your statement about the uninformed is correct. When I went to the M Car Control Clinic held in DC a couple of months ago, there was a lady in the class. She actually was my partner through the day. At the beginning of the class, one of the instructors asked if any of us owned an M car. She raised her hand. Eventually I found out she only had a M235i. Didn't have the heart to correct her after the revelation. She was a nice enough person and I give kudos to her for doing a class like this. She was the only woman that day and she did hold her own on the various courses. Wasn't timid about putting her foot into it.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by champignon

Bottom line is that any BMW out of warranty is a wallet biopsy waiting to happen. No one should buy a BMW (as opposed to leasing one) without this basic understanding, especially if they intend to keep the car beyond the warranty period.

I don't think the question is whether the 2-Series is a competent car; it certainly is, for doing all the things that cars are required to do. If instead the question is whether the 2-Series still provides the driver-connected driving experience that BMW built its brand on, the answer might be completely different. For me, I'd concede the competency of the car, but I would not agree that it is fun to drive in the same way that a 2002, an old 325i, or a 1-Series is/was.

If one is to the point of only looking for a fast, truly modern, and competent car, BMW is not the only player in that space, and I would expand my search and look at other brands as well.

The whole complaint about maintenance costs with BMW really puzzles me. You're not driving a Toyota or Honda. Now I do agree there should be some level of reliability at this level. I use my Ducati as an analogy. I bought the bike knowing there will be higher than normal maintenance costs. If people are complaining about routine maintenance for their BMWs, they'll have a heart attack with a Ducati. My 848 was just in for its 15k service and the cost was $1600. No repairs done. Just routine maintenance. And I also got a 15% discount so it would have been higher. In contrast, my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R has been extremely cheap to own and operate.

[olds350]

Originally Posted by champignon

...If one is to the point of only looking for a fast, truly modern, and competent car, BMW is not the only player in that space, and I would expand my search and look at other brands as well.

Considering my original post in wanting to stay with a convertible, it's an extremely limited field of cars for me considering my tall stature. S2000s and mx5 are off the scope as is the z3 and z4. Already have a mustang I use for autox, so don't want another and I'm not a fan of the camaro drop top. This is boiling down to something like a boxster, but the lack of a rear seat for extra carrying options makes that a non starter as well. For everything I've looked at, for me, I'm going to stay in the 1 or 2 series range.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

The whole complaint about maintenance costs with BMW really puzzles me. You're not driving a Toyota or Honda. Now I do agree there should be some level of reliability at this level. I use my Ducati as an analogy. I bought the bike knowing there will be higher than normal maintenance costs. If people are complaining about routine maintenance for their BMWs, they'll have a heart attack with a Ducati. My 848 was just in for its 15k service and the cost was $1600. No repairs done. Just routine maintenance. And I also got a 15% discount so it would have been higher. In contrast, my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R has been extremely cheap to own and operate.

I'm not personally complaining, and the maintenance costs aren't the issue in any event. The fact is that BMWs are full of small design faults that cost an arm and a leg to fix if you end up being a victim. These are things like evaporator leaks in the AC system, complicated headlight system problems that require replacement of the entire headlight when 1 small part breaks, seat mounts and motor assemblies full of cheap plastic parts, where you can't replace just the cheap plastic part, etc. etc. etc.

I am fortunate in that I have a lot of cars, I am able to garage them, and they don't get tons of mileage put on any of them in a given year. For me, it is a hobby expense, and as we all know, hobby expenses do not need to be justified Also, I don't have irresponsible people driving or abusing them, it's just generally me, and I treat cars well. And if I get stuck with a $3500 repair bill for something that shouldn't have broken in the first place, and that would cost <$1000 to fix in a Japanese car but costs a fortune in a BMW, I can afford it.

But for most people, that's not the scenario, they are going to daily drive their cars and put a lot of mileage on them, they may not be able to garage them in which case sun and heat and cold will take their collective tolls on the vehicle. And in that case, the owner of an out-of-warranty BMW needs to factor in the possible costs, which can be enough to make one reconsider owning one.

[jaye944]

There's a difference to note here;

you have an M car and/or you have M-sport Package.
"2" totally different things

M/package (like mine) there are some cosmetic parts, some different wheels, suspension and brakes etc, but it ain't an M car, nor do I represent mine as

M-Car which was designed, created, engineered by BMW's motorsport division.

TBH, there are far too many haters in various forums, on what is and isn't a "TRUE" M car, and plenty of haters, demanding and ridiculing the art of placing an "M" sticker/badge on said car

There is a UK site I left who has a thread up called "M badge wankers"
Where they post up pictures of cars with m stickers, also post up info from the DVLA with the full car's details.

I seriously thought this shit was behind me when I left the Porsche marque, where people where hating on the 44's and 24's that there where not real Porsche's but Audi's, and then a real porsche HAD to be air cooled.

There are seriously some deranged moron's with far too much time on there hands and hate for the cars other people drive.

It seriously grinds my f***ing gears when people are worried about badges and what other drivers do or don't

I'm about to stick a big old union jack on my boot, (2018 football finals) so suck on that you haters

p.s. I'm not venting on you

Originally Posted by swunder

I can't even believe the engine noise through speakers is... a thing. I can't effectively exactly explain why its so bad/stupid/pathetic. Its all so fake, so non-enthusiast oriented, so... completely missing the entire point of not only BMW's but sports cars and driving in general for the last 100 years.

The fake noise and 500 M badges plastered all over the entire line of non M mxxx cars are just so blatantly targeted at kids and uninformed people that will think they are driving a real M2/3/4. It waters down the entire brand and M mystique/heritage.

Its all a shame too, because I'm sure the m235 and m240 are awesome cars but I'll just never get past the marketing bull**** ingrained into them.

I drive a 135is and am not happy with the M's everywhere - but its only getting worse as new models come out.

/rant

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by champignon

I'm not personally complaining, and the maintenance costs aren't the issue in any event. The fact is that BMWs are full of small design faults that cost an arm and a leg to fix if you end up being a victim. These are things like evaporator leaks in the AC system, complicated headlight system problems that require replacement of the entire headlight when 1 small part breaks, seat mounts and motor assemblies full of cheap plastic parts, where you can't replace just the cheap plastic part, etc. etc. etc.

I am fortunate in that I have a lot of cars, I am able to garage them, and they don't get tons of mileage put on any of them in a given year. For me, it is a hobby expense, and as we all know, hobby expenses do not need to be justified Also, I don't have irresponsible people driving or abusing them, it's just generally me, and I treat cars well. And if I get stuck with a $3500 repair bill for something that shouldn't have broken in the first place, and that would cost <$1000 to fix in a Japanese car but costs a fortune in a BMW, I can afford it.

But for most people, that's not the scenario, they are going to daily drive their cars and put a lot of mileage on them, they may not be able to garage them in which case sun and heat and cold will take their collective tolls on the vehicle. And in that case, the owner of an out-of-warranty BMW needs to factor in the possible costs, which can be enough to make one reconsider owning one.

Not arguing with you at all. I just think people's expectations need to be properly set when they get into manufacturers of this type. I went in knowing this when I bought my 135i. I even got an extended warranty because of the eyes wide open approach. I have daily driven my car since new and the mileage reflects this as with 4.5 years of ownership there is 74,800 miles on the clock.

I also got an extended warranty on my Ducati knowing about it's reputation and costly repairs.

The funny thing is both vehicles have been by in large pretty reliable. I had the DCT problem which was the thorn in my side for a while but that eventually got fixed.

And parts cost wise and stupid manufacturer decisions, I can point to several with my Ducati. The projector beam headlights are prone to have condensation inside the lens. The official fix from Ducati is to drill two small holes in the rear cover/cap to allow it to breath a little. There's a known issue with a wiring harness near the battery which will just burn up. The infamous plastic fuel tank debacle which Ducati has pretty much given all of us affected owners the middle finger on. I've had one of my mirrors requiring replacement because some LEDs for the turn signal that is integral to the mirror burned out. Thankfully it was under warranty. But now a mirror (not sure if it's the same one or different) has some LEDs burned out again. You can't just replace an LED or just the board the LEDs reside on because the part is not sold separately. You have to buy the entire mirror assembly to the tune of around $300. I've decided to just let it be. This on a vehicle that has been garage kept from day one bought in 2009 with 17k miles on the clock.

[ejm3]

I am in the same boat when I replace my 2012 135i convertible (maybe a 2019?).
I've looked around and there's nothing that suits my needs except a new M240.

Boxter is way too expensive when you get it optioned the way you will want in it.
And the M2 is not available as a convertible.

So despite whatever faults it has the M240 is probably my only option, which is not exactly a terrible thing.

As for reliability, I wasn't expected a Honda or Toyota when I bought it new.
I knew oil, tires, etc. were all going to be more expensive and not last as long.

But honestly I also wasn't expecting an $1,100 OFHG at 42k miles and a $1,400 water pump at 52k miles. Especially when I generally baby it and never track it.

And these aren't just "I must have just got a lemon" items but these are very predictable and known issues that you can see coming a mile away just by talking to other 1-series owners.

Kind of embarrassing for BMW engineering in my opinion.

[rowsdower]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Not arguing with you at all. I just think people's expectations need to be properly set when they get into manufacturers of this type. I went in knowing this when I bought my 135i. I even got an extended warranty because of the eyes wide open approach. I have daily driven my car since new and the mileage reflects this as with 4.5 years of ownership there is 74,800 miles on the clock.

I also got an extended warranty on my Ducati knowing about it's reputation and costly repairs.

The funny thing is both vehicles have been by in large pretty reliable. I had the DCT problem which was the thorn in my side for a while but that eventually got fixed.

And parts cost wise and stupid manufacturer decisions, I can point to several with my Ducati. The projector beam headlights are prone to have condensation inside the lens. The official fix from Ducati is to drill two small holes in the rear cover/cap to allow it to breath a little. There's a known issue with a wiring harness near the battery which will just burn up. The infamous plastic fuel tank debacle which Ducati has pretty much given all of us affected owners the middle finger on. I've had one of my mirrors requiring replacement because some LEDs for the turn signal that is integral to the mirror burned out. Thankfully it was under warranty. But now a mirror (not sure if it's the same one or different) has some LEDs burned out again. You can't just replace an LED or just the board the LEDs reside on because the part is not sold separately. You have to buy the entire mirror assembly to the tune of around $300. I've decided to just let it be. This on a vehicle that has been garage kept from day one bought in 2009 with 17k miles on the clock.

Don’t even get me started on the expanding fuel tanks. Ducati’s solution under the class action suit was to replace any affected tank with... drum roll... the same part! How that was an acceptable resolution in court is beyond me. If it weren’t for that issue, I would likely still have my Multistrada.

Agree with all points though. Most of my bikes have been Japanese and were fine but didn’t have much soul. The Duc though... man it was great in so many ways except the fuel tank. I don’t think BMW provides the same distinctly visceral experience but do agree my 128i is more engaging than other car brands.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by rowsdower

Don’t even get me started on the expanding fuel tanks. Ducati’s solution under the class action suit was to replace any affected tank with... drum roll... the same part! How that was an acceptable resolution in court is beyond me. If it weren’t for that issue, I would likely still have my Multistrada.

Agree with all points though. Most of my bikes have been Japanese and were fine but didn’t have much soul. The Duc though... man it was great in so many ways except the fuel tank. I don’t think BMW provides the same distinctly visceral experience but do agree my 128i is more engaging than other car brands.

Ducati did change the tanks. But not in a positive way. The tanks were made smaller so they could expand more before causing mounting issues with the frame. Nice solution, huh? I also had my dealer ask Ducati if I could get the aluminum performance tank instead of the painted replacement. I would pay out of pocket to paint the tank. Ducati said no. Even though the retail price for both parts were the same. Than magically a few weeks after, Ducati jacked the price of the aluminum tank much higher so there wasn't any price parity anymore.

In Ducati's defense, they were replacing the tanks as they received warranty replacement requests from the dealers. It was when the crap you scrape out of the bottom of the barrel...lawyers...got involved with a class action lawsuit. The terms they put out there did no favors for any of us. It benefited them as they got their pay day and Ducati as it set hard limits and terms on coverage of defective tanks. I remember debating the fools over at one of the Ducati forums saying this class action was a great thing. I couldn't believe none of them actually read the terms of the settlement. I did and was upset enough where I actually sent a letter back to the leaches to opt out. The fools there questioned my actions and I said I want no part of the settlement and want to still have the right to sue Ducati which you waive if you join the class action.

With the replacement tank, I had it Caswell epoxy coated. But it looks like the coating is starting to degrade as I had the tank off earlier this year to have repainted. I've also noticed some tell tale signs that the tank is starting to deform. Tying this back to the complaints from the BMW crowd about maintenance. Imagine having to pay $1200+ for a new fuel tank as a maintenance item.

But I digress.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by rowsdower

Don’t even get me started on the expanding fuel tanks. [snippage]

Agree with all points though. Most of my bikes have been Japanese and were fine but didn’t have much soul. The Duc though... man it was great in so many ways except the fuel tank. I don’t think BMW provides the same distinctly visceral experience but do agree my 128i is more engaging than other car brands.

BMW used to have soul, and used to provide the sort of "visceral experience" you cite, and you didn't use to have to buy an M car to get it.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by ejm3

I am in the same boat when I replace my 2012 135i convertible (maybe a 2019?).

[snippage]

As for reliability, I wasn't expected a Honda or Toyota when I bought it new.
I knew oil, tires, etc. were all going to be more expensive and not last as long.

But honestly I also wasn't expecting an $1,100 OFHG at 42k miles and a $1,400 water pump at 52k miles. Especially when I generally baby it and never track it.

And these aren't just "I must have just got a lemon" items but these are very predictable and known issues that you can see coming a mile away just by talking to other 1-series owners.

Kind of embarrassing for BMW engineering in my opinion.

Nothing new about this, in the good old days, the cars were engaging and fun to drive, all up and down the line. On the minus side, the cars were a mixture of some ingenious engineering coupled with design flaws and often, cheap plastic and otherwise flawed parts that were pretty much designed to fail. The old, common, bugbear was wiring that was too thin, especially going into the doors where it would break on use, combined with lots of electrical problems.

The questionable design issues and poor quality parts continue, but now, in addition, the soul has been extracted, with essence of Camry injected in its place.

[blue135]

Off Topic, but have you ever seen a Class Action where the got at least 25% of their loss and their lawyers did not get at least 100% of their expenses and profit margin?

[Cmoney135i]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

My experience is with driving the M240i, but close enough. In short, more refined than the 1, steering feel is very light unless in sport+, but even then, it feels closer to a camry than a bmw. For some that matters, to some less so. Also, the B58 in the 240i (you'd be getting the N55 in the 235) feels much stronger then the numbers suggest. Overall, I think you'll be happy with the 235i

The only thing that is more refined is the interior. I'm only speaking about the m235.

Steering feel

1 series > 2 series and it's not even close

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by Cmoney135i

The only thing that is more refined is the interior. I'm only speaking about the m235.

Steering feel

1 series > 2 series and it's not even close

not sure what point you are making, that I did not

[champignon]

Originally Posted by blue135

Off Topic, but have you ever seen a Class Action where the got at least 25% of their loss and their lawyers did not get at least 100% of their expenses and profit margin?

Of course it depends on how you define "loss." Many of the "losses" are imaginary, or extremely minimal, however the class size is large. So if you have 2 million "victims," each damaged to the tune of $2, the victims might be given a coupon for $2 off of a purchase they have no intention of making, from a company they don't do business with. The lawyers then get $1 million, for very little work and the "nuisance value settlement" is well worth the lawyers' time.

On the other hand, the lawsuits over the Takata airbags, and the those about the VW Dieselgate scandal, did produce tangible benefits for the victims/owners. These would be the exceptions and not the rule, from what I have seen.

I have a few times received checks in the mail for minuscule sums related to supposed financial securities violations on stock trading/divulged information issues, often dating back 10 or more years from the "settlements." Accompanying materials supposedly explaining said-violations, were obtuse and ended up in the trash immediately. Not knowing that I was a "victim" in the first place, it was hard to evaluate the worth of the check for $11.73 received long after the "injury." The lawyers were, however, well-remunerated.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

The whole complaint about maintenance costs with BMW really puzzles me. You're not driving a Toyota or Honda. Now I do agree there should be some level of reliability at this level. I use my Ducati as an analogy. I bought the bike knowing there will be higher than normal maintenance costs. If people are complaining about routine maintenance for their BMWs, they'll have a heart attack with a Ducati. My 848 was just in for its 15k service and the cost was $1600. No repairs done. Just routine maintenance. And I also got a 15% discount so it would have been higher. In contrast, my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R has been extremely cheap to own and operate.

Some maintenance costs are frustrating because items that aren't performance oriented in nature at all or competitively way ahead of other manufacturers and generally work well in just about every other car seem to fail and aren't really improved upon from a MTBF perspective generation after generation. Talking about:

-window regulators
-door lock actuators
-coolant systems/thermostats (might be seeing improvement here?)
-oil gaskets
-xenon lighting system
-ignition coils
-vanos solenoids

And when they do fail they're expensive.
I don't expect my BMW to roll windows up or down better than a Honda with power windows, thats not what I've paid for. So its unfortunate that we have to pay extra just to keep items that are table stakes in working order. In the case of window regulators I suspect its a result in part of BMW's choice to cut costs by manufacturing the same frameless window doors for coupes and convertibles but just my guess (the constant rolling down/up of the window when you open/close the door especially in icy winter takes its toll).

[Cmoney135i]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

not sure what point you are making, that I did not

Missed that comma! I took it as you were saying the 2er is more refined in steering. My bad

[five_timer]

One of the reasons I got a 128 (vs a 135) is reliability, based on both what I've heard, and my own experience with the same drivetrain in a Z4.

Including the Z4, I've had 12 years of essentially problem-free driving. Both cars needed the Vanos idle control unit replaced, and I preemptively replaced the water pump at 90k. The maintenance and servicing intervals are more than a Camry, but the overall reliability has been excellent.

I drive my cars year-round, every day, through New England winters and everything else. I can't imagine any other car, that's even remotely as fun to drive, being this reliable.

I've had problem BMWs, so I know what that's like. Had a 92 325is that was a maintenance nightmare after 4 years. Had an 01 325ci that was constantly in the shop from day 1. But I've found that the N52/6M drivetrain has been bullet-proof.

[bagekko]

I want a M4 vert manual tranny, so hard to find a CPO, my sales guy and I were talking the other day and perhaps I should keep the 135 vert and just get a M3 lease as it would be cheaper than a M4 vert lease. But I really want to go to all manual cars, so maybe the M3 lease and a trade my 135 for M235/240 vert manual.

Googled again any hints at M2 vert, keep finding the same things where BMW says it will never happen.....

Originally Posted by ejm3

I am in the same boat when I replace my 2012 135i convertible (maybe a 2019?).
I've looked around and there's nothing that suits my needs except a new M240.

Boxter is way too expensive when you get it optioned the way you will want in it.
And the M2 is not available as a convertible.

So despite whatever faults it has the M240 is probably my only option, which is not exactly a terrible thing.

As for reliability, I wasn't expected a Honda or Toyota when I bought it new.
I knew oil, tires, etc. were all going to be more expensive and not last as long.

[ejm3]

Knowing what I know now I don't think I could buy a used BMW.
At least new you can get a solid 3 years of warranty driving.

Then depending upon how many miles you put on maybe another year or two without any major expensive repairs.
But after say 5 years and maybe 60k miles that its a ticking time bomb.

I was originally going to go CPO but there are too many things not covered by the CPO warranty.

At the end of the day I still love my 135i. I still get favorable comments from strangers all the time.

I have told myself as long as I can keep the total expenses (maintenance and repairs) down to $2,500/yr. or so I will keep the car because its worth it to me.

So far in 2018 I'm at $1400 for a water pump and I'll need new rear tires and some routine maintenance so it will be close assuming nothing else goes seriously wrong.

[olds350]

Since cost and repair is a concern in regard to a m235, I have a few questions in regard to the turbos. I've taken all of my BMWs will into the 100k mileage range with basic maintenance, but they have all been NA motors. What would the average life expectancy of the N55 turbo be and how much is it to replace? I'm assuming these need to be addressed after 100k miles based on the limited knowledge I have.

[10"]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Your statement about the uninformed is correct. When I went to the M Car Control Clinic held in DC a couple of months ago, there was a lady in the class. She actually was my partner through the day. At the beginning of the class, one of the instructors asked if any of us owned an M car. She raised her hand. Eventually I found out she only had a M235i. Didn't have the heart to correct her after the revelation. She was a nice enough person and I give kudos to her for doing a class like this. She was the only woman that day and she did hold her own on the various courses. Wasn't timid about putting her foot into it.

just because you had the steamy hots for her doesn't mean she was NOT uninformed. :P the fact that she raised her hand for that question confirms it!