1er coupe U.S. price point???

[Brookside]

My daily contribution to this thread....

"Beating a dead horse."

[larryn]

LOL!!

Funny, a guy in Munich telling us we should pay more for the privilege of the 135i. There's no conflict of interest there, really.. move along, and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[atr_hugo]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

A lot can happen in eight months at the economic level to influence prices, and all car companies reserve their right to adjust their pricing to reflect changing business situations. It is widely expected that before the end of this year the American Federal Reserve will lower interest rates in attempt to avert a pending economic crisis associated with a real estate bubble. For months they have no longer published M3 money supply data, so as to mask their flooding the world with dollars, which normally would bring on severe inflation. The financial markets are polite but are catching on. In contrast, the European Central bank is expecting to raise interest rates. This differential will obviously impact the $/€ exchange rate. Furthermore, countries with considerable dollar holdings in Treasury bills, like Japan, China, South Korea, and others are slowly diversifying their excessive dollar denomnated holdings to a healthier mix. Aside from that, some countries are moving away from pricing their oil exports in dollars. And, as we all know, the American government budget deficit goes higher, and the trade deficit gets worse. Obviously, such developments must result in a weaker dollar and higher inflation. This means that Japanese cars will go up in price too. And of course the basis of what we're discussing, the price of the 135i, is published in Euros.

Now this is good analysis - and one of the reasons I believe that will force pricing of the all models higher. Remember the Japanese have a lot of manufacturing capacity in the US (as do the Koreans). The BMW pricing meetings have to be difficult.

[ibeam81]

Brookside that was GREAT!!! Thanks!

[BForbes]

Brookside nailed it...This is exhausting. I wont be posting in pricing for a while. I just gave myself a migraine reading the last 10 posts.

[Lips]

Agreed, but until there is something better to talk about this debate will go on and on and on and well you get the point.

[bavarianbutcher]

QUESTION?

Has anyone out there ever bought a new BMW using the "BMW Select" payment option? If so how did it work for you and is it really as good as it sounds? Will it make my 135i more affordable!?

[bavarianbutcher]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

It's important, when drawing price comparisons, not to mix "apples and oranges". I mean this in a temporal sense now. We've been told that the 1 series coupé and cabrio will be introduced simultaneously in the American market, in the early spring (people tend not to buy cabrios until it gets nice and warm). This likely means March 2008. Infiniti has waited until three weeks before its G37 models will be availabe, this month, to announce its pricing for them. It is reasonable to think that BMW would wait until March 2008 to announce prices for the American 1-series models, so as to take into account the latest economic, sales, and competitive information. So when I'm talking about 135i price ranges, I'm generally referring to what I assume the likely price will be next April, eight months from now, including the dealer destination charge (i.e. shipping). Obviously, that future, total price is not the same as a current price without the dealer destination charge.

A lot can happen in eight months at the economic level to influence prices, and all car companies reserve their right to adjust their pricing to reflect changing business situations. It is widely expected that before the end of this year the American Federal Reserve will lower interest rates in attempt to avert a pending economic crisis associated with a real estate bubble. For months they have no longer published M3 money supply data, so as to mask their flooding the world with dollars, which normally would bring on severe inflation. The financial markets are polite but are catching on. In contrast, the European Central bank is expecting to raise interest rates. This differential will obviously impact the $/€ exchange rate. Furthermore, countries with considerable dollar holdings in Treasury bills, like Japan, China, South Korea, and others are slowly diversifying their excessive dollar denomnated holdings to a healthier mix. Aside from that, some countries are moving away from pricing their oil exports in dollars. And, as we all know, the American government budget deficit goes higher, and the trade deficit gets worse. Obviously, such developments must result in a weaker dollar and higher inflation. This means that Japanese cars will go up in price too. And of course the basis of what we're discussing, the price of the 135i, is published in Euros.

After having shown that the 135i price, if equipped as in Germany and if sold today, would not be under $36K based on (a) the important principle that BMW would not sell it below what their employees get it for before taxes, (b) the notion that the price ratio between 135i and 335i in Germany would likely be the same as in the US, and (c) the published US price of a vaguely similar Bavarian competitor, I then proceeded to presume a possible low threshold price next April ($37.5K) based on previously announced (but unspecified) price hikes for BMWs and economic circumstances, such as continued inflation and likely dollar depreciation. Additionally, I suggested that market forces and laudatory reviews would give BMW the option of including additional, highly desirable options in the German versions as standard in the models sold in America, so as to further enhance the cachet of this model, but stated that the price would stay under $40K.

In response, some have apparently attacked the pricing results or the methodology as "arrogant". This seems a bit like a visceral response of "blaming the messenger". But I must ask, who's actually being arrogant here? I find it to be rather arrogant for somebody who apparently had completely irrational and unfounded price expectations about the 135i to still presume or demand, upon having been presented with the dry facts, that BMW and purchasers of BMW cars in other parts of the world should nevertheless effectively subsidize American consumers, as if they were the most important customers in the world; that BMW should throw reason out the window and discount just for Americans a hot car below what the company charges its own employees, as well as below what competitors charge for a less desirable brand! If you think you deserve a special discount for having written messages on this board to help generate a buzz for the car, then that's a completely personal issue that you ought to handle privately, but here we're discussing the price for American consumers. And in all my posts on this thread I haven't provided any price assessments for the rather peculiar 128i because there is no published price for it.

Just imagine what would happen, for the sake of argument, if BMW announced a price of only $34K next March for the 135i, as equipped in Germany. You'd run to your dealer, perhaps because you couldn't get through on the phone, and he might tell you something like "sorry, there's at least a 14 month wait, and we can't even take any additional orders any more right now". Perhaps another dealer would say something like "sorry, all of next year's production is already sold out, but if you're willing to consider a $3000 service or gratuity surcharge, I'll try to see if I can get you one within the next few months, but you'll have to take whatever color and options they have". A third dealer might say something like "forget about, but I have some excellent deals on these 328i models right here, and they cost even less". And you might be wondering something like "why couldn't BMW get their marketing right? - the car is obviously a giveaway at that price; I wouldn't mind paying extra to order exactly the version I want". Any basic Economics lecture will tell you that the market is about supply and demand, and the price is where both curves meet.



Everybody knows that a performance car like the 135i is never going to be a "value". And any car buff knows that BMW doesn't dilute its brand image by offering cars that almost anyone can easily afford. Like it or not, BMW and Porsche are the two most profitable premium brand manufacturers. However, when comparing the 135i with similar cars from competitors, or when looking at what people in other parts of the world have to pay for it, it is still a relative bargain, as I've said before. That's why I suspect that in three very important markets thousands of consumers will readily spend over $40K for nicely optioned 135i models:

(1) Northern California - Bay Area and Sacramento, perhaps BMW's most important American market, with the country's largest dealer in Berkeley; including affluent regions like Silicon Valley, Marin, San Francisco;

(2) Southern California - LA Region, San Diego, Palm Springs; self-evident, and no need to go into detail

(3) Tri-State NY, NJ, CT - Lots of very rich people here too, who appreciate performance bargains but would be caught dead in a Japanese car.

Then there are other markets where people are willing to pay for a quality performance car, ten grand below a 2.7 liter Cayman: Washington DC Metro, Boston Region, Seattle, South Florida, Dallas, Houston.

Now let's take a look at what other car companies believe the American market will bear, based on published prices at which they decided to sell their new cars -- which might be considered by some as possible alternatives to the 135i:

* G37 Coupe Sport 6MT - Yesterday Nissan's Infiniti brand announced the pricing for the model (with close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission): $35,550 + $715 destination charge. Well, looky-look, that adds up to $36265 already, more than what some on this thread just claimed BMW couldn't possibly sell the 135i for! Though this car is sporty, with 19" wheels, it has less torque than the 135i, acceleartes slower, is heavier and less nimble, doesn't seem to have a separate rear trunk, probably has token rear seating, less exciting styling, poorer gas mileage, a heavier engine with less than 90 horsepower per liter output (apparently no direct injection technology), no special option ordering or on site pick-up experience, barely any brand "heritage", and presumably faster depreciation.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...e,150417.shtml

* Audi TT 3.2 Quattro 6-speed - This sporty car has the same weight as the 135i, but at only 250 horsepower and less torque it doesn't accelerate quite as fast and doesn't quite get the same mileage. Rear seats, like with the Porsche 911, are only for kids, and of course there's no separate rear trunk. What does Audi think the American market for this car can handle? Check their web site: $41500 + $720 destination charge. Hey, that's $42220!

Of course there's no guarantee that these prices will still hold by next April. Does a conceivable base price of $40K next April for a nice 135i make more sense now? Duh..

In summary, I hope those of you were fantasizing before have finally woken up and are seeing the real picture. Remember, if you truly want the 135i, you don't have to buy it; you can lease it while waiting for the even more expensive M model to come out.

lol....This is the United States. 9.5/10ths of the country wont even know the difference between a 128i and a 135i. Not to mention we are the largest market economy in the entire world so if BMW tips their nose to us by inflating the price of a not so feasible coupe then they might as well sit in the back seat. Hands down the 135i is not worth 37K base (unless it goes a buck ten on water) to anyone even thinking about entering the luxury car market. If anything thats gona send people who .....maybe you know.... wanted to kick buying brand new big family tahoes once the kids are out of the house and get an "ENTRY LEVEL" bmw coupe for the SAME PRICE over to Mac's Cadillacs for something that "just makes more sense".

[Lips]

Originally Posted by bavarianbutcher

QUESTION?

Has anyone out there ever bought a new BMW using the "BMW Select" payment option? If so how did it work for you and is it really as good as it sounds? Will it make my 135i more affordable!?

I have not but it doesn't sound like that great of a deal unless you have no problem with making a big baloon payment at the end of your term. Basically you would get the benefit of low payments like a lease, but you would owe the final amount at the end. Why not just lease it so you have the option of turning it in or buying it as well at the end. This program sounds like it locks you in once you buy it.

[bavarianbutcher]

true much like just financing. but if you read the rest is says you can refinance the baloon at the end. I was thinkin about putting down a considerable down payment like 12k or so, making around 400 a month payments on it for 2-3 years and holding on to some of my money then just buying it however after that term is up.

[Lips]

That is a valid point, I guess you would have to look into the specifics and see what monthly payments would be when comparing this program to a conventional purchase or a lease. When I hear the term refinancing and car I get a little concerned since you would be refinancing a depreciating asset versus a house which appreciates. Just my two cents.

Lips

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

In response, some have apparently attacked the pricing results or the methodology as "arrogant".

Because you cant just dismiss the pricing of the 135i's competitors purely because you think you have a superior product. Ive said this before, the market will determine the price of this car moreso than any other BMW in the past because there are numerous alternatives that for the typical car buyer will represent virtually the same virtues. You can rant all you want about price ratios and how "unfair" it would be to the German workers to have to pay more for a car than the Americans but someone is bound to get the short end of the stick. BMW cant afford to price the car so high purely because its German workers will be upset. The market dictates what the market dictates.

Take a look at the examples you used. Sure, the G37 and Audi TT 3.2 both represent cars that will perform slightly worse than the 135i but if the only factor we used to define a car's price is performance, then you would only be telling a fraction of the story. The reason cars like the Audi TT a priced at such numbers is because of the quality of the materials, and luxury. I can get an Audi TT with Alcantara seating standard. There are a lot of features that the Audi will have that the 135i wont have or will be strictly optional. This how some cars, like the BMW 528i, manage without being performance icons. The 528i is a lot slower than the 135i, has a lot less power, and is heavier, so why does that car start in the low 40s?

It's the same case with the Infiniti G37. A 6-speed manual car is priced at around 36,000 only because of the equipment you must have as standard with that spec. You are getting more horsepower, a limited slip differential, active rear steering, leather seating surfaces, and a dozen other luxuries that than 135i wont have as standard or wont have available.

If, for instance, the 135i was priced above 36,000 dollars, what market would BMW be taking then? It surely wouldnt be the Generation-Y enthusiast who has been raised on the Japanese imports and hot hatch mentality. You couldnt convince EVO-man that the 135i would be worth nearly 8 grand more even though it would represent no major performance improvement. I thought the mission of this car was bring in new buyers to the brand; to target the Japanese and cheaper front-drive models like the Golf GTI/R32, the MUGEN Honda Civic Si, etc. Otherwise, what market is this car targeting other than potential 335i buyers who want something slightly cheaper.

If a car doesn't represent a reasonable value, the car will never sell well regardless of its credentials. Im sure than the Volkswagen execs thought that the Phaeton was an engineering marvel and, on merit alone, deserved the price tag they were offering. Problem is, no one saw value in a 70,000 dollar Audi A8 with a budget badge on it. More so than any other type of car, an entry level car must represent a reasonable value in comparison to its bigger, more luxurious stable mates.

[bavarianbutcher]

bravo

[BForbes]

Wow, me agreeing with MPower in regards to pricing...I need to check my temperature.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by MPower

Because you cant just dismiss the pricing of the 135i's competitors purely because you think you have a superior product. Ive said this before, the market will determine the price of this car moreso than any other BMW in the past because there are numerous alternatives that for the typical car buyer will represent virtually the same virtues. You can rant all you want about price ratios and how "unfair" it would be to the German workers to have to pay more for a car than the Americans but someone is bound to get the short end of the stick. BMW cant afford to price the car so high purely because its German workers will be upset. The market dictates what the market dictates.

Take a look at the examples you used. Sure, the G37 and Audi TT 3.2 both represent cars that will perform slightly worse than the 135i but if the only factor we used to define a car's price is performance, then you would only be telling a fraction of the story. The reason cars like the Audi TT a priced at such numbers is because of the quality of the materials, and luxury. I can get an Audi TT with Alcantara seating standard. There are a lot of features that the Audi will have that the 135i wont have or will be strictly optional. This how some cars, like the BMW 528i, manage without being performance icons. The 528i is a lot slower than the 135i, has a lot less power, and is heavier, so why does that car start in the low 40s?

It's the same case with the Infiniti G37. A 6-speed manual car is priced at around 36,000 only because of the equipment you must have as standard with that spec. You are getting more horsepower, a limited slip differential, active rear steering, leather seating surfaces, and a dozen other luxuries that than 135i wont have as standard or wont have available.

If, for instance, the 135i was priced above 36,000 dollars, what market would BMW be taking then? It surely wouldnt be the Generation-Y enthusiast who has been raised on the Japanese imports and hot hatch mentality. You couldnt convince EVO-man that the 135i would be worth nearly 8 grand more even though it would represent no major performance improvement. I thought the mission of this car was bring in new buyers to the brand; to target the Japanese and cheaper front-drive models like the Golf GTI/R32, the MUGEN Honda Civic Si, etc. Otherwise, what market is this car targeting other than potential 335i buyers who want something slightly cheaper.

If a car doesn't represent a reasonable value, the car will never sell well regardless of its credentials. Im sure than the Volkswagen execs thought that the Phaeton was an engineering marvel and, on merit alone, deserved the price tag they were offering. Problem is, no one saw value in a 70,000 dollar Audi A8 with a budget badge on it. More so than any other type of car, an entry level car must represent a reasonable value in comparison to its bigger, more luxurious stable mates.

I agree with you. Though ZweierCoupe's Economic analysis for the spring of 2008 is pretty good (though it is based on many assumptions), I do not really think he understands the US market.

I guess we will see....

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by guyatherton

I know you didn`t do an analysis of the 128i because no other market gets the 128 but the assumption is that it will start below $30K (including delivery). Especially since a 2008 328i will be around $34K (including delivery). Do you think the price difference between a 128i and 135i could be $10K ($29K - 39K)?

One other point, do BMW sell any cars in the US at a lower price than BMW Employee pricing? You are assuming they do not, I just wanted to know if that is accurate because it is a key assumption in your analysis.
Thanks again for your detailed comments

The assumption, that the 128i will be advertised in the US market next April at a starting price below $30K is surely correct, as can easily be surmised by taking the published prices in Germany for the two diesel models with four-cylinder engines, 120d and 123d, and applying the calculations that were made previously in order to determine likely ballpark or envelope values.

The 120d, with a standard common rail diesel engine and dorky-looking 16" wheels, no fog lights, but excellent mileage, still performs decently, and represents the initial entry level for the 1-series coupé in Germany. Translating its €28750 price to dollars using the ratios determined in my earlier posts, would represent the lower bound introductory price for the 128i.

The 123d will get a sophisticated diesel engine (two liter variable twin turbo) that will make its debut in the 1-series coupé. Its published 0-100 km/h acceleration time is identical to that of the 2.7 liter Cayman with Tiptronic, and a tenth of a second below the Mini Cooper S. Since this is a novelty engine, and diesel engines are generally more expensive than gasoline engines, my guess is that it would cost BMW no less to produce than the tame, de-tuned (by BMW standards) 230 horsepower engine in the 128i. Taking into account also market factors in the pricing considerations (highly desirable twin turbo diesel vs. relatively tame non-turbo not even sold in Germany), it's obvious that the 4-cylinder Diesel is worth more than the 6-cylinder Otto engine. Translating the €32500 price of the 123d to dollars would thus represent an upper bound introductory price for the 128i, with the actual price likely to be closer to this value than the lower threshold.

The corresponding price ratios are:

(120d/135i) = 0.7381
(123d/135i) = 0.8344

Based on the (135i/335i) ratio, I determined the price of the 135i (presumed to be available now, and without the $775 dealer destination charge) to be $35590 -- which exceeds the BMW employee price, before 19% taxes, of $35066 (based on today's $/€ exchange rate of 1.37).

Applying the ratios yields presumtive lower and upper bounds prices for the 128i (assuming availability now):

Without destination charge <$26269, $29696>
With destination charge <$27044, $30471>

Taking the average of the above is likely to give a more realistic lower bound, since the 128i is likely to come with 17" wheels, fog lamps, and additional amenities. So the adjusted price ranges would be:

Without destination charge <$27982.50, $29696>
With destination charge <$28757.50, $30471>

A published introductory price of $29950 next April (without destination charge) represents a 7% price hike above the corresponding adjusted lower bound value, but less than 1% more than the upper bound. There is obviously sufficient leeway, in terms of options, to ensure that the 128i will start below 30 grand.

While the presumtive desire to not undercut the employee price represents an important principle, this is certainly ensured in the case of the 335i. Since I neither work for, with, or at BMW (though I live within reasonable walking distance to the Olympia Center, and thus also to BMW headquarters, museum, main factory, and the BMW Welt center), I don't have access to the employee price list at their internal web site. But it seems that their 78.2% discount multiplier is applied across the board, with possible exceptions, I could imagine, for such cars that aren't selling so well, as the 7-series or Z4 coupé. Determining whether there is a particular model that conceivably violates this rule involves checking prices at the German and American BMW web sites. This entails, respectively, downloading the PDF brochures and discounting the 19% tax, and going to the car configurator. This is an exercise I don't care to do.

What some people don't seem to appreciate is that the 128i and 135i are "completely different cars" (though technically they're very similar) and will appeal to different market segments. I can imagine that the 135i is likely to not make up more than one fifth of the total 1-series coupé production. It will be an exclusive halo-flagship ultra performance model, appealing to the more affluent BMW connoisseur rather than some first-time BMW buyer under 30 who's looking to move up from a Japanese car or a Volkswagen.

Obviously, every marketing campaign for a car will stress youth and vitality. If there were actually a campaign for a German car that strongly suggested "this car is for old people", nobody would want to buy it. Even though the MINI campaign features a lot of groovy artsy-fartsy-type people under 30, there are plenty of folks over 50, particularly women, who get a MINI Cooper because of this fabricated association. The nimble driving characteristics and visual associations presented in the ads confer youthfulness, at a subliminal level, to the purchaser and his or her self-conception. Similar type of psychological considerations apply to the 135i.

Though some have stated generally that there are plenty of other cars competing with the 135i, and that therefore the 135i must be priced below $35K, they have been conspicuously silent in citing an actual competitor. The fact is, that there has been a huge niche market gap for over a year, which the 135i will be filling. If this market were thought to be sufficiently huge, I would think that both Audi and Mercedes would also soon be coming out with their competing versions, but that's not the case. One design element of this niche segment is a fixed rear windshield, which makes the structure more rigid, so this rules out Audi 3.2 Sportback, Audi 3.2 TT, both Cayman models, VW R32 ($33K+ destination charge), Infiniti G37, etc. Designing a small two-door car with a separate rear trunk, rear seating for adults, excellent sporting performance, and nice styling isn't that easy. Japanese and American manufacturers tend to like to take the easy route. For instance, such shortcuts would be deploying a bigger and heavier engine, rather than a lighter and technically more sophisticated, yet still more powerful one, as BMW has done, or churning out cars with less distinctive and visually interchangeable styling, unlike most German cars. (I know a guy in the Bay Area who intentionally bought a bland Japanese car because he wants to be as inconspicuous as possible when out on the roadway.) Acknowledging these differences is not being condescending or arrogant, but merely stating the very obvious. Somebody attempting to compensate for a car brand inferiority complex would be best advised to make a transition to a brand they've been aspiring to, even if it means buying a certified "pre-owned" model.

The fact is, that the 135i has its particular niche segment all to itself, as they deserve to, since they were the ones to have capitalized on it decades ago. As I've said before, BMW would be nuts to price it at only one or two grand above the VW R32 in the US market, and therefore I've insinuated that people must be seriously deluded to think that BMW actually would price their 135i at such a low lwvel.

At BMW's USA web site the 2002 has been featured very prominently in the past few weeks as a point of reference for the introduction of the 135i. I assume then, that a primary target for the 135i is the older guy who, more than 30 years ago, owned or lusted after a 2002, and also the kid with fond memories of riding in his dad's 2002 way back then. Another target is obviously the guy who has already owned at least a couple of 3-series Bimmers in the past and resents the styling, size, weight, and price of the current 3-series coupés. Certainly a possible target is the professional California guy (say, engineer, attorney, software developer) or Wall Street guy from the New York region who can afford, and is seriously considering, a Cayman because he wants a fun-to-drive car with great handling and great resale value, but is somewhat apprehensive about the limited luggage space or lack of rear seating. Yet another conceivable target is the affluent performance-oriented guy who has already been driving Porsches for years but wants a more practical car for bad weather days, or as a gift for his wife. Still anothe target might be the guy who is resenting his expensive, sluggish SUV that he never takes off the asphalt anyway, along with the negative stigma increasing associated with them. In other words, after the laudatory performance reviews begin to spread, there are plenty of guys who can afford and will flock to the 135i. These people will buy this car for their own driving satisfaction with no consideration whatsoever regarding possibly impressing neighbors or colleagues. They don't care if most people couldn't tell the difference between the 135i and the significantly less expensive 128i, or that the 328i may cost less.

I have no idea exactly what is meant by such cliché terms as Generation-X or Generation-Y, other than some shorthand term for a vague age range demographic group. To somehow link certain generic style or behavioral attributes to such a broad and diverse category appears to me to be quite silly and an excuse to make some random assertion that can't be so easily refuted because its meaning is so nebulous. Marketing people in the automobile business, often with backrounds in sociology or psychology, will commonly define at least twelve different archetypes to categorize consumers.

If market pressure and presumed target customer expectations in the USA dictate that the 135i must have a leather interior rather than fabric, or adaptive xenon headlights (because that's very special and distinctive), then BMW will likely include these as standard, amidst some fanfare. Since these three features are optional for the 135i models in Germany, adding more stuff will also increase the price, though I continue to think that the upper limit will be $39950 for a better equipped model. A putative $10K price difference between the 128i and 135i in the US market is quite possible, and could work to BMW's advantage. While the magazines will be likely be raving about the 135i, thus providing the necessary cachet to this new model style, many first-time BMW purchasers buying a 128i will benefit from this association. They will tell themselves something like "95% of the public won't even be able to tell the difference between the two cars" (as a poster to this thread has suggested) and will thus consider that they're getting a bargain. Others new to the BMW brand will tell themselves that they didn't really intend to drive their car that hard anyway, so the extra ten grand for the 135i would be a waste of money.

What you could see in the American marketplace then, overall, would be up to a 20% market share for the 135i, and a 80% for the 128i. In general the 135i buyers would be older, partially cannibalize purchases away from the 3-series, and be more concentrated in places like Silicon Valley, Marin County, western portions of the LA region, northern San Diego, western Connecticut, northern New Jersey, Seattle, Austin, etc., with a very low concentration in America's "Flyover Country" (like Missouri). Many of the 128i owners will pay a couple of grand beyond what they had intended to spend for a car, in order to step to the BMW brand. Some, who may have actually preferred the 135i but though the price differential was too much, will lease the 128i for a couple of years, with the hope of then trading it in for a more affordable, "pre-owned" 135i. By that time, as somebody suggested, the choice for a new 1-series coupé may be bwtween a 130i and an M1.

[ibeam81]

ZweierCoupe thanks for a very informative post.

I've been preaching a similar mantra and have also experienced reactions ranging from disbelief to outright anger. As much as I would love to see lower prices, I just don't see the justification for it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of this sentiment falls into the arena of wishful thinking. No flames please.

BTW, the G37 isn't a hatch.

[atr_hugo]

So ZweierCoupe doesn't work for BMW. Which means his opinion is worth about as much as anyone elses. It also means he has no specific insight into what demographic BMW has targeted for the 1er (and I've attended demographic discussions where the target audience is defined down to the cologne they purchase).

He makes valid points on the weakness of the dollar, and today's unemployment numbers announcement will not help that situation. But, pricing won't be known until a few weeks before launch. We won't know for sure what the price is til spring.

[imported_MPower]

Im not saying that Zweier is wrong when it comes to his price guestimation. Certainly BMW could price the 135i that high. But I am saying that the price is too high for the US market. Simply deciding that the car occupies a niche market doesnt warrant you to price above any equivalent performance competitiors (which have been stated numerous times throughout this thread). While both the Mitsubishi Evolution and Subaru WRX STi have two more doors and all-wheel drive, there is no question that they are performance equivalents that are targeting this sort of audience looking for a "budget" performance car. Both the Mitsu and Subaru are great cars, but, let's be honest, they wouldnt sell half as well if they were priced to compete with the M3s and RS4s of this world which they can technically perform just as well as.

As for the reference to the Generation-Y moniker, the comment that BMW is targeting "the older guy who, more than 30 years ago, owned or lusted after a 2002, and also the kid with fond memories of riding in his dad's 2002 way back then" suggests a market that is so small that to specifically target that audience would only lead to 60 year old retired fishermen who will go towards the cheaper 128i anyway. The fact is that, at least in America mind you, around 2 percent of the population even know what the 2002 was let alone rode in one or drove one. When BMW launched the E90, they released this video about the lineage of the 3-Series (watch it here, its entertaining none-the-less:http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0) You'll note that in comparison to the time that they spend on the original 320i, the E30, E36, and E90, the 2002 occupies a much bigger share of total film-time. BMW tried to push that 3-Series lineage, starting with the 2002, with the E90 and no one really bought it namely because it took 9 minutes of film to educate people on what the 2002 was.

Additionally, this a crowd that lusted over classic British roadsters like MG and Lotus. So, naturally, they buy Mazda Miatas. But this also the same crowd that complain about the 3rd Generation Miata being fat, too-luxurious, and softly sprung. Sure this sort of 60 year old man would love to see the 2002 reinvented but they certainly arent going to overlook "3450" inscribed as the weight of the car. This a fickle crowd that annoyingly believe that five pounds kills the balance of a production car.

Again, Zweier, Im not saying that your guestimation on price is incorrect or uneducated. Certainly the opposite is true. I am simply suggesting that such a price, north of 36,000 and infringing on 40,000, will never lure the market the way BMW would certainly want the 135i to. As I have stated numerous times before, the 135i has to represent a reasonable value to the consumer if he is going to walk away from the bigger, more practical, and more luxurious 335i. If you take value out of the equation, what is the 135i really selling? Admit it, not much. The 135i will very, very slightly outperform the 335i but to such an unnoticeable degree that the average buyer will fell absolutely no difference. The only reason 80 percent of the members of this forum are interested in the 135i is value. Otherwise, they would have just gone to the BMW dealer yesterday and bought the 335i. There could be a reasonable argument made that the 335i would represent a better value than the 135i because of its a) style b) luxury and c) size.

If you take value out of the window, all you are left with is your demographic (which you rightly point out) of 911 owner who wants something slightly more practical for daily-use. That's a buyer who will appreciate the virtues of the 135i and will notice the slight performance differences. The only problem is that sort of buyer represents such a small fraction of the total market that you cant rely on that buyer to fill the allocations. Therefore, value must be part of the 135i's repertoire.

With value established as a critical component of the 135's repertoire, then you have you consider other value competitors not just competitors in pure raw terms. As stated, the Subaru and Mitsubishi are not two-door rear wheel drive coupes, but they are value competitors and certainly cars that the 135i will constantly be compared to. Consider a car like the Mazdaspeed6 (Mazda 6 MPS, elsewhere). When it came out, priced at around 36K, the question the magazines thought they were asking was if it could compete with the WRX STis and Evos. Well it couldnt because it was underpowered and much heavier. As it turns out, that was the question every consumer was asking as well. The problem for the Mazdaspeed6 was that even though it was a great drive, it was priced so high that people who would cross shop it with the Subarus couldnt afford it, even if they wanted something a lot more practical and luxurious. As a result, the price on the dealer lots has plummeted to, you guessed it, 33,000 dollars, or the same price as a Subaru WRX STi. The Mazdaspeed6 had to represent value and it didnt at such a high price. The same thing has to apply to the 135i. Otherwise all you are selling is a smaller 335i for not much less.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by MPower

The only reason 80 percent of the members of this forum are interested in the 135i is value. Otherwise, they would have just gone to the BMW dealer yesterday and bought the 335i.

Now ~80.1%. :smile:

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by MPower

Im not saying that Zweier is wrong when it comes to his price guestimation. Certainly BMW could price the 135i that high. But I am saying that the price is too high for the US market. Simply deciding that the car occupies a niche market doesnt warrant you to price above any equivalent performance competitiors (which have been stated numerous times throughout this thread). While both the Mitsubishi Evolution and Subaru WRX STi have two more doors and all-wheel drive, there is no question that they are performance equivalents that are targeting this sort of audience looking for a "budget" performance car. Both the Mitsu and Subaru are great cars, but, let's be honest, they wouldnt sell half as well if they were priced to compete with the M3s and RS4s of this world which they can technically perform just as well as.

As for the reference to the Generation-Y moniker, the comment that BMW is targeting "the older guy who, more than 30 years ago, owned or lusted after a 2002, and also the kid with fond memories of riding in his dad's 2002 way back then" suggests a market that is so small that to specifically target that audience would only lead to 60 year old retired fishermen who will go towards the cheaper 128i anyway. The fact is that, at least in America mind you, around 2 percent of the population even know what the 2002 was let alone rode in one or drove one. When BMW launched the E90, they released this video about the lineage of the 3-Series (watch it here, its entertaining none-the-less:http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0) You'll note that in comparison to the time that they spend on the original 320i, the E30, E36, and E90, the 2002 occupies a much bigger share of total film-time. BMW tried to push that 3-Series lineage, starting with the 2002, with the E90 and no one really bought it namely because it took 9 minutes of film to educate people on what the 2002 was.

Additionally, this a crowd that lusted over classic British roadsters like MG and Lotus. So, naturally, they buy Mazda Miatas. But this also the same crowd that complain about the 3rd Generation Miata being fat, too-luxurious, and softly sprung. Sure this sort of 60 year old man would love to see the 2002 reinvented but they certainly arent going to overlook "3450" inscribed as the weight of the car. This a fickle crowd that annoyingly believe that five pounds kills the balance of a production car.

Again, Zweier, Im not saying that your guestimation on price is incorrect or uneducated. Certainly the opposite is true. I am simply suggesting that such a price, north of 36,000 and infringing on 40,000, will never lure the market the way BMW would certainly want the 135i to. As I have stated numerous times before, the 135i has to represent a reasonable value to the consumer if he is going to walk away from the bigger, more practical, and more luxurious 335i. If you take value out of the equation, what is the 135i really selling? Admit it, not much. The 135i will very, very slightly outperform the 335i but to such an unnoticeable degree that the average buyer will fell absolutely no difference. The only reason 80 percent of the members of this forum are interested in the 135i is value. Otherwise, they would have just gone to the BMW dealer yesterday and bought the 335i. There could be a reasonable argument made that the 335i would represent a better value than the 135i because of its a) style b) luxury and c) size.

If you take value out of the window, all you are left with is your demographic (which you rightly point out) of 911 owner who wants something slightly more practical for daily-use. That's a buyer who will appreciate the virtues of the 135i and will notice the slight performance differences. The only problem is that sort of buyer represents such a small fraction of the total market that you cant rely on that buyer to fill the allocations. Therefore, value must be part of the 135i's repertoire.

With value established as a critical component of the 135's repertoire, then you have you consider other value competitors not just competitors in pure raw terms. As stated, the Subaru and Mitsubishi are not two-door rear wheel drive coupes, but they are value competitors and certainly cars that the 135i will constantly be compared to. Consider a car like the Mazdaspeed6 (Mazda 6 MPS, elsewhere). When it came out, priced at around 36K, the question the magazines thought they were asking was if it could compete with the WRX STis and Evos. Well it couldnt because it was underpowered and much heavier. As it turns out, that was the question every consumer was asking as well. The problem for the Mazdaspeed6 was that even though it was a great drive, it was priced so high that people who would cross shop it with the Subarus couldnt afford it, even if they wanted something a lot more practical and luxurious. As a result, the price on the dealer lots has plummeted to, you guessed it, 33,000 dollars, or the same price as a Subaru WRX STi. The Mazdaspeed6 had to represent value and it didnt at such a high price. The same thing has to apply to the 135i. Otherwise all you are selling is a smaller 335i for not much less.

Very well written but you seem to overlook one thing. We do not know what is BMW's intention for the 135i. It could just be a space filler to justify their benchmark(the 3series) going up so high in price. We do not know if they want these cars all over the place. The ball is in their court. They arent stupid. They are the BEST IMO at marketing. If they start it out at 36k, its because they know exactly what they are doing. My .02

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Very well written but you seem to overlook one thing. We do not know what is BMW's intention for the 135i. It could just be a space filler to justify their benchmark(the 3series) going up so high in price. We do not know if they want these cars all over the place. The ball is in their court. They arent stupid. They are the BEST IMO at marketing. If they start it out at 36k, its because they know exactly what they are doing. My .02

I agree... it's an interesting rebuttal of ZweierCoupe's post, but like onehot2k mentioned (and it's been mentioned by others as well) we really don't know. :iono:

It's a shame that we don't have direct input into BMW's decision, because if we did then there probably would be a 135i in the low $30K's (if not less).

Although there tends to be a general consensus that the 128i will be ~$30K, the 135i price debate has been a little more contentious. I guess that the differences come down to the target or goal of the 135i. Many call it an entry level car and therefore expect a price in the low $30K's, others like myself consider it more of a limited "halo" car and expect a price of at least $36K and probably more. As much as we might not like it, we're just going to have to wait it out.

I do find it kind of amusing that we are combining the terms entry level and $30K together, but in the days of $38K Hyundai's and $70K VW's I guess that I shouldn't be surprised.