Is the motor identical to the 35is motor?

[NTTY]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I love the speculation when the facts are already available

Go to www.realoem.com and compare the specs of the regular N54 from a 335i with the N54 from Z4 35is:

- Whole engine part numbers are different (of course, the oil pans are different). Moreover, the engine part numbers are the same between Z4 35i and 35is !
- Only one of the turbos on the Z4 35is has different part number, the other one is the same part number, which means the turbos are the same specs as the regular N54. Moreover, the turbos between Z4 35i and 35is have the same part numbers.
- Engine blocks and pistons have the same part numbers
- Cylinder heads have the same part numbers
- High pressure fuel pumps have the same part numbers
- Injectors have the same part numbers
- Spark plugs have the same part numbers
- Intake manifolds have the same part numbers
- ECUs have the same part numbers.

Sorry to rain on your parade, guys...

Hi, I checked realoem, and oil pans are the same between 135, 335 and z4 35is

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...64&hg=11&fg=10

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...64&hg=11&fg=10

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...64&hg=11&fg=10

I did not check the rest of the engine, I'm too lazy, but pistons and intake manifold are the same between these 3 cars for instance. So I don't see that the parts number are different.

[Dackelone]

Anybody see/read this artcle? February issue #96...








The feature story is not yet up on their website. I suppose soon it will be though. I was gonna create a new thread for this - but I thought it would more fitting here in this engine thread of the 1M.


http://www.bimmer-mag.com/index.php


Bimmer ran a short three page article. It's really only about one page of text with the same old photos we all have seen before.



This little comment kind of stood out to my mind...


"As good as it is, however, the N54 is not a true M engine, and it lacks the characteristic edge of the naturally aspirated motors found in the M3 or M5, which will always have keener response than their forced induction equivalents. The bottom line is that N54 feels like a tuned 135i motor which is exactly, what it is."

Bimmer also said the engine is the exact same N54 engine that is found in the "Z4 sDrive 35is" but with 335 Hp and 332 - 370 ft/lbs of torque. They also said the 1M should be faster than the Z4's 4.7 sec time to 60 mph.


Dackel

[MrRoboto]

^^^Sounds familiar.

[1M Fan]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

I was talking about DCT

Ok, I see.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

"As good as it is, however, the N54 is not a true M engine, and it lacks the characteristic edge of the naturally aspirated motors found in the M3 or M5, The bottom line is that N54 feels like a tuned 135i motor which is exactly, what it is."

Bimmer also said the engine is the exact same N54 engine that is found in the "Z4 sDrive 35is" but with 335 Hp and 332 - 370 ft/lbs of torque. They also said the 1M should be faster than the Z4's 4.7 sec time to 60 mph.

Pretty much what I've been saying. An "M" car should have a superior ENGINE to ANY non-M BMW. There is absolutely NOTHING "special" or "superior" about this engine. It's simply the iS engine that is scattered all over the BMW range.

which will always have keener response than their forced induction equivalents.

Well, I don't think that's true. change FI to TURBOcharged and you're golden. Superchargers on the other hand are MUCH more responsive, and yes, that is also forced induction.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Well, I don't think that's true. change FI to TURBOcharged and you're golden. Superchargers on the other hand are MUCH more responsive, and yes, that is also forced induction.

Ever driven the first gen MINI vs the second gen MINI? Seems like most MINI enthusiasts prefer the turbo models.

[Redadair]

Does it really matter if the engine in the new 1M is the same as the engine in the Z4? After all what were you hoping for????

As I said in this post, (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465015) there was no way in hell that BMW was going to bump up the N54 engine with enough power for the 1M to beat the M3. Imagine what would happen to the sales of the already slow selling M3 if the $50K little brother was faster.

The N54 engine is one of BMW's best and most tunable engines, HPFP not withstanding. Yes the pump had an issue not the engine. Dinan, JB4 and other tuners are getting over 400 hp and 400 Tq out of this engine, BMW could have as well but again that would have caused the 1M to whip the M3, simply not going to happen.

I don't understand the big fascination with revving an engine to 8K - 9K, what is it. Yes it sounds good but engines that run this high make very little power in the lower range. Take the Honda S2000, it makes almost no power without revving the living sh*t out of it all the time. The E46 M3 needed to be kept on a constant boil to feel it's power. This type of engine gets old in a hurry.

My 05 Subaru STi which I have tuned to ~375 HP and 420 Wheel Torque is an absolute monster. I challenge anyone to find a overall funner car to drive then these STi's and it makes huge power from 3500 rpm to about 6000, even though it redlines at 7000 the car just doesn't need to run that high all the time to run 0-60 in 4 seconds and 12.4 in the quarter.

My 07 N54 335i with a JB4 on it pulls like crazy from just over 1K to redline, the N54 is just so easy to get BIG power out of it it's almost free and it equates to faster acceleration period.

It's time to get over the switch to Turbo BMW's. The decision has been made they won't be switching back. Check out the articles about the 650 HP M3, do you think that is still naturally aspirated?, nope supercharged and who cares if the throttle response is quicker at idle with a NA engine, that has nothing to do with acceleration times.

[blueshark]

Would it be possible to also supercharge the 1M 's N54? I recall another manufacturer who recently came out with a turbo/supercharged engine.

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by Redadair

I don't understand the big fascination with revving an engine to 8K - 9K, what is it. Yes it sounds good but engines that run this high make very little power in the lower range. Take the Honda S2000, it makes almost no power without revving the living sh*t out of it all the time. The E46 M3 needed to be kept on a constant boil to feel it's power. This type of engine gets old in a hurry.

To stay in a gear longer on a race track. More shifting makes for lower lap times.......

///M cars are engineered for the track first, then the street. Well, at least they used to be.

T

[Redadair]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

To stay in a gear longer on a race track. More shifting makes for lower lap times.......

///M cars are engineered for the track first, then the street. Well, at least they used to be.

T

Higher RPM's doesn't let you stay in a gear longer. That is determined by gear ratios, check out the post here showing transmission ratios of the M3 and 1M and max speed for each gear. The M3 is geared lower because it has less torque but still runs the same speed at redline in each gear, in fact the 1M runs a few mph faster in each gear at redline.

The 1M is built for the track just like the M3 it even shares the same suspension and brakes.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Well, we already know the peak power is at 5900, so "that isn't fun" is likely the verdict on that measure.

just found this in another thread. Pretty cool that automobile mag dynos cars. At any rate... the N54is developed nearly as much power at 6500 as at 5000 rpm, and it's putting out 275 hp, at the wheels! So the " party ain't over" right at 5900 rpm. Will be interesting to see if they dyno a 1M....


http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/up...horsepower.jpg

[Advevo]

I am real curious how the 1M engine stands out on a very hot trackday. I know the S54 can drive all day without a misfire same is for the V8 M3.

We have build an racecar from an M3 E90 streetcar. We changed a lot except the engine and ecu. It is all off factory and we drive 4 hour races with it. The engine has no problems at all. We did lots of races with it an no rebuilds at all. Rev 8400 rpm 4 hours long.

We also drove 3 seasons 130i cup races. Not one car in the cup had engine problems or broken engine. 20 cars 3 seasons long not one car problems. Will a turbo engine do the same??? For me that s questionable.

[Redadair]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I am real curious how the 1M engine stands out on a very hot trackday. I know the S54 can drive all day without a misfire same is for the V8 M3.

We have build an racecar from an M3 E90 streetcar. We changed a lot except the engine and ecu. It is all off factory and we drive 4 hour races with it. The engine has no problems at all. We did lots of races with it an no rebuilds at all. Rev 8400 rpm 4 hours long.

We also drove 3 seasons 130i cup races. Not one car in the cup had engine problems or broken engine. 20 cars 3 seasons long not one car problems. Will a turbo engine do the same??? For me that s questionable.

Turbo engines and racing isn't new at all. Subaru, Mitsubishi and many others have been racing turbos in rally and GT for years. I race my 05 STi a bunch at Miller Sports Park and have never had heat or engine troubles.

Have faith that the M group will have solved any heat issues at the track for the 1M.

[EmmDrei]

@Advevo: The questions are: Series config or tuned? Track day or serious racing?

To me tuned turbo engines are the easiest way to burn money racing. Tuning a na engine, you can calculate your build, run and maintenance costs beforehand. Playing with turbos and their electronics, you automatically create a black hole... unless you take a complete pre-built, tested and bulletproofed system. And we both know the typical street-tuning junk will not cut it. I do not know of anyone in Germany that has seriously race prepared the 3L bi-turbo. No point, there is no series or class to race it in that I know of. So that means having everything built from scratch and paying for it.

If you leave the engine as is, I am fairly confident it will last. As long as you don't run slicks. If you do and you don't install a drysump, then I'm pretty sure the engine won't be able to take the stress very long. Imho a na engine can handle very short drops in oil pressure, the turbo chargers won't.

PS: And btw... you know the M3 drivetrain has its problems in race conditions. Add more torque and imho you will multiply those problems.

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I am real curious how the 1M engine stands out on a very hot trackday. I know the S54 can drive all day without a misfire same is for the V8 M3.

We have build an racecar from an M3 E90 streetcar. We changed a lot except the engine and ecu. It is all off factory and we drive 4 hour races with it. The engine has no problems at all. We did lots of races with it an no rebuilds at all. Rev 8400 rpm 4 hours long.

We also drove 3 seasons 130i cup races. Not one car in the cup had engine problems or broken engine. 20 cars 3 seasons long not one car problems. Will a turbo engine do the same??? For me that s questionable.

ADVEVO,

Do yo guys run in the VLN series at the Nurburgring?

Dorr motorsports campaigned a 135I, tuned to 380PS and it wasn't very competitive

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

Dorr motorsports campaigned a 135I, tuned to 380PS and it wasn't very competitive

No wonder. SP8T. Anything from 2.5 - 4.0 Liter. Turbos only. Who would want to run a 380PS car in that class, when the competition has at least 500PS? (Btw: Even the SP3T (2 Liter Turbos) have more power!) In addition you have to run restrictors, have to mount the series data loggers, have the aero restrictions and are required to use the refuelling can. About the dumbest VLN class I can think of to build a car for right now! Really expensive and you don't stand a chance.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Advevo

So the 1M is for me still the best package even if it has AG engine. The size is perfect. Wide fenders increadable. M3 parts more then ok. Ok the engine is questionable. But we wil see.

I think this is fair... We know the M motors have traditionally been developed with the track in mind, while the street motors have not. I suspect that high speed oiling, if nothing else, will be suspect with sticky tires on the 1M. If I was getting the car largely for heavy big-track work on sticky tires I'd need to think carefully and probably looking into oiling upgrades. Realistically there are only a handful of motors I'd really trust for those conditions- the porsche "street" motors (non dry sump) don't make the cut either without modification.

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

To me tuned turbo engines are the easiest way to burn money racing. Tuning a na engine, you can calculate your build, run and maintenance costs beforehand. Playing with turbos and their electronics, you automatically create a black hole... unless you take a complete pre-built, tested and bulletproofed system. And we both know the typical street-tuning junk will not cut it.

Turbos concentrate more heat in a smaller area, especially in the cylinder head. If you've modified a 1M to be make the same power as a V8 M3, you're trying to dump that heat from 6 cylinder heads instead of 8, meaning each head is seeing at least that much more heat. You then combine that fact a cooling system is rated for significantly less power and you have a guaranteed failure under sustained output- it's only a question of time.

The cooling system being unable to keep up even at the factory output is why "overboost" exists in the first place- it's safe for short period, but heat-soak will catch up after a handful of seconds, causing valve temps to rise, hot spots in the head, detonation, etc.

Thus I'd say the recipe for a reliable tuned turbo motor isn't much more complex than a N/A motor- it starts with keeping the temperatures in the critical areas down. Unfortunately this involves extensive upgrades to the cooling system (radiators, airflow, etc), and it's generally the last place normal tuners spend money. On the street one can get away with stretching the limit, as you're rarely able to sustain high power outputs, but take that same car to the big track or an open road event and you're just waiting for something to pop.

Porsche tends to build in a fairly massive cooling reserve into their turbos, and they can be reliable tuned at significantly higher power levels than stock. Thus I don't think '"tuned turbos are unreliable" is a valid statement.

That said, it sounds like the 1M's cooling hasn't been upgraded that significantly, so this will certainly be an area to be aware of for 1M drivers that tune their cars.

[Redadair]

I have tuned my 335i and not seen any additional heat issues. I haven't added additional cooling systems but then again my car is also street legal.

Guys, is anyone out there looking to turn their new 1M into a non street legal race car? If so there are solutions to any heat issue.

If you are going to drive the car on the street most of the time it will work just fine for track day as well. Lets not get carried away with how serious a race car we can build. If you are looking to do this contact BMW about using their car for this purpose I am sure they can help with any needs and suggestions you may have.

Since BMW is again entering GT racing in 2012 you may well see the 1M compete on the track in the future.

[ES BMW]

It sounds like meth injection would be required for a tuned 1M on the track. Aside from the octane boost, isn't a cooler combustion chamber one of the other benefits? I've also read that it helps clean the intake valves.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Thus I'd say the recipe for a reliable tuned turbo motor isn't much more complex than a N/A motor- it starts with keeping the temperatures in the critical areas down.

...

Thus I don't think '"tuned turbos are unreliable" is a valid statement.

Pete, that's not what I wrote (or meant to write anyway).

My point is just, that from my experience, racing turbos costs more, than racing na engines. And the total costs are very hard to calculate in advance for turbos. Screw up on a mechanical tuning and you destroy a couple of pistons, maybe the head and/or the block. Look at what broke and chances are you can figure the "why" out relatively easily. Buy the parts, change what needs changing. Race. End of story. Basically.

Getting the power out of a turbocharged engine is a lot more complex because your tuning range is virtually unlimited. How much power is enough and how much is too much? The 930s ran around 700bhp in race trim if I remember correctly. So you are looking at a possible output power range of stock to double the power for a 1M. Theoretically at least. The more power, the bigger your problems. What are you building? An endurance engine or short track? And there are a lot more variables to play with than is the case with a na engine. If you have a "starting point" or someone with adequate race experience with a certain turbo engine, then costs become somewhat foreseeable. If not... that's what I meant by "black hole".

If we're talking "works outfit", one would think it doesn't make that much of a difference. If you pay for it out of your own pocket, my experience says it will. But even at works level... BMW has been working on the downsized WTCC turbo since the middle of last year and they said, that the teams would have the engines shipped in time for the first race in 2011. That's roughly 9 months. Teams build new F1 engines in less time. And according to BMW the reason was, that they are building an engine that has to work in a WRC car as well as in a WTCC car. So setting a turbo engine up seems to be a little more complex and time costs money. In racing as anywhere else.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I am real curious how the 1M engine stands out on a very hot trackday. I know the S54 can drive all day without a misfire same is for the V8 M3.

We have build an racecar from an M3 E90 streetcar. We changed a lot except the engine and ecu. It is all off factory and we drive 4 hour races with it. The engine has no problems at all. We did lots of races with it an no rebuilds at all. Rev 8400 rpm 4 hours long.

We also drove 3 seasons 130i cup races. Not one car in the cup had engine problems or broken engine. 20 cars 3 seasons long not one car problems. Will a turbo engine do the same??? For me that s questionable.

And that my friend is the only thing that matters- M insists they made changes to make this motor track worthy. As for being the same as the Z435is- we have known that for a long time, but I also know that incremental changes are made each year and BMW has not released a 2012 car yet so there is no parts listed. I was specifically told that internal changes were made for the release of the 1M. When M gets back from holiday break we will have more information (or at least hints) on said changes.

The Z4 is IS form is pretty substantial and was tested exhaustively at Button Willow prior to its release. I have not heard any issues with it thus far... we shall see.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The Z4 is IS form is pretty substantial and was tested exhaustively at Button Willow prior to its release. I have not heard any issues with it thus far... we shall see.

who tested it at the world famous buttonwillow?

M flying over to experience it, the new ring