Motortrend Hot Lap

[rad doc]

Here is what I don't get. The complete discordance from the video and the Overall comments. These are quotes from the video.

"Broadpower band, got that bottom end"

"Its got the brakes!"

"Oh, Yeah!! Not much roll. Thing is tight!"

"Good stability in high speed turns"

Then he goes on the state. "I hate this car." Really? Your reaction didn't seem to say you hated the car. Seems intellectually dishonest to me. I could careless if he likes or dislikes my car but the review makes absolutely no sense. Oversteer or Understeer? "Its not a fast car" (while not commenting on the other cars with similar power) or "got the bottom end"? "Oh yeah" or "I hate this car"?

This guy is all over the place. I am sure he is an excellent driver and maybe great reviewer but he is just off on this one. Not because he dislikes it but because the review is nonsensical.

[///1M]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Here is what I don't get. The complete discordance from the video and the Overall comments. These are quotes from the video.

"Broadpower band, got that bottom end"

"Its got the brakes!"

"Oh, Yeah!! Not much roll. Thing is tight!"

"Good stability in high speed turns"

Then he goes on the state. "I hate this car." Really? Your reaction didn't seem to say you hated the car. Seems intellectually dishonest to me. I could careless if he likes or dislikes my car but the review makes absolutely no sense. Oversteer or Understeer? "Its not a fast car" (while not commenting on the other cars with similar power) or "got the bottom end"? "Oh yeah" or "I hate this car"?

This guy is all over the place. I am sure he is an excellent driver and maybe great reviewer but he is just off on this one. Not because he dislikes it but because the review is nonsensical.

+1!

[Kayani_1]

I take this harsh review with a pinch of doubt.

Lot of other publications have driven the car on track with professional drivers and non professional ones. None of them came away saying that they hated the car. They might have disliked few minor things here and there. But over all they all had praise for 1M and liked it a lot.


Now in top gear Stig is a professional race car driver and was able to post higher times in 1M then M3. Maybe laguna Seca is not ideal for 1M. But then how come his video comments are more positive then his overall review.

Also, comparing the power of a appx. 330hp car with 500hp cars makes no sense. Comparing it against cars in its league and 1M will not shy. Yes, I agree with few minor issues. Such as slightly less under steer and more power bump to 400hp could have done wonders for 1M. But then again you can easily take care of that via after market for not a whole lot of money. Put a chip on 1M and few other mods and it will be making 400hp easy.


As far as the Boss 302 goes vs M3 goes. The Mustang engineers took an M3 to laguna Seca just with intent to design a Mustang that can beat M3 there.

To me Mustang 302 boss is a very nice car for the money and can run with M3 any day. But come on now the E92 M3 is on its last leg and is nearly 4 years old. So if after following it around the track for 4 years you finally develop a Mustang that can hang with it. It is nice but not a huge deal. Because the next M3 is around the corner and you might have to go follow that one around for few years to catch up again.


Also, Randy is very pro American cars. As he really love muscle cars and Vettes by his own self admission. After all he owns a Vette. Maybe a hint of bias against German cars since he is more PRO American cars.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Also, Randy is very pro American cars. As he really love muscle cars and Vettes by his own self admission. After all he owns a Vette. Maybe a hint of bias against German cars since he is more PRO American cars.

But the funny thing is with an 1M you get the same kind of massive midrange torque you would get from a 'muscle car' and because of that it will pop sideways as easily!

Do you get the picture?!




BTW, the Vette has to be a very, very good car... just look at how they trashed the competition from Ferrari and Porsche in the Le Mans 24h race.

[Maniac992]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there....here is a quote from his test of the mustang, which might betray his bias somewhat.....

"Clearly better than any other Mustang I've driven. Great soundtrack, too. Just makes me want to put a couple of American flags on the hood like the old presidential limousines. They'd look just right on a Mustang. I'm just so impressed."

[///1M]

^^ nice find

[Kayani_1]

Yes, you do get the same massive low end grunt from muscle cars as you do from 1M and a bit of fun side ways action. But for some reason he likes it in a Mustang & Vette but just not in 1M go figure.....

As for 24 hrs le mans it is a great endurance race. But if you mess up once or get an unlucky break you do not get a redo until next year. It is like playing a single 8 quarter basketball game to determine champion instead of the entire playoff. As you know any one can win one game with or without luck. But to show constant success through out the series exposes chinks in the armor.

Take the example of ALMS M3 GTR's. They are steadily kicking behind of the competition race after race. Regardless of brands from Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, Jaguar, to Ford all factory efforts by the way. The M3 still ahead with 1st and 3rd overall in drivers and 1st in manufacturers.

As for the Ferrari they are showing great promise towards the end of the season with the new 458 italia after switching over from 430 Scud. They won last couple of races. This is not to say that Vettes are not doing great also. I think ALMS is the hardest fought races right now in GT series.

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

But the funny thing is with an 1M you get the same kind of massive midrange torque you would get from a 'muscle car' and because of that it will pop sideways as easily!

Do you get the picture?!




BTW, the Vette has to be a very, very good car... just look at how they trashed the competition from Ferrari and Porsche in the Le Mans 24h race.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Take the example of ALMS M3 GTR's are steadily kicking behind of the competition race after race. Regardless of brands from Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, Jaguar, to Ford all factory efforts by the way. The M3 still ahead with 1st and 3rd overall in drivers and 1st in manufacturers.

The Vette is 2nd overall in drivers and in manufacturers BUT 1st from the Michelin-equipped cars (Flying Lizard Motorsports Porsche, Risi Competizione Ferrari and Corvette Racing teams).

Porsche is 3rd overall and their best positioned team is, curiously, Team Falken Tire (Falken tires) not the Flying Lizard Motorsports title defenders Joerg Bergmeister and Patrick Long with the Michelin-equipped Porsche 911 GT3 RSR.

So, in the long run I think that the tires are making the difference and the Dunlop tires from the M3 are beating the opposition.

Big kudos for Dunlop!

[BimmerMat135]

He would probably love the 1M if it was built by GM ford or chrysler. But something built outside america make him a Hater. This is my 2 cents. MT have most of the time been about american cars vs imported one...

[///1M]

The US car mags are known to have been very political over the years. This is not new.

[Kayani_1]

Off course tires do make a big difference. But the M3's are very well balanced, aerodynamically and have plenty of power and great driver lineup.

If Chevy and others do not have confidence in their Michelin tires then maybe they need to switch.

Bottom line is one can make all kind of excuses for failure. The M3 GTR the whole package with tires and everything is handing everyone their behind in ALMS since the beginning of the season. It is what it is no matter how you dice it up

Forget the ALMS for a minute lets go the the American Continental series. The GT cars are much closer to stock cars. Even there the M3's won 10 out of 18 podiums at the beginning of the season against the likes of Camaro GT-R with Corvette ZR-1 engine, Mustang Boss 302, Mazda RX8's, and Porsche 911 GT3. Off course until the officials decided that M3's might run away with the whole season by dominating and penalized them by reducing there RPMs down and restricting their intake to reduce power. All the while the Camaro GT-R are lighter by 100 Ibs and still allowed to use all 450hp of their engines. Go figure.......the more pro USA....stuff that is happening to attract more pro Chevy and Ford fans.

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

The Vette is 2nd overall in drivers and in manufacturers BUT 1st from the Michelin-equipped cars (Flying Lizard Motorsports Porsche, Risi Competizione Ferrari and Corvette Racing teams).

Porsche is 3rd overall and their best positioned team is, curiously, Team Falken Tire (Falken tires) not the Flying Lizard Motorsports title defenders Joerg Bergmeister and Patrick Long with the Michelin-equipped Porsche 911 GT3 RSR.

So, in the long run I think that the tires are making the difference and the Dunlop tires from the M3 are beating the opposition.

Big kudos for Dunlop!

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

If Chevy and others do not have confidence in their Michelin tires then maybe they need to switch.

Bottom line is one can make all kind of excuses for failure. The M3 GTR the whole package with tires and everything is handing everyone their behind in ALMS since the beginning of the season. It is what it is no matter how you dice it up

I wasn't talking about failures or excuses... as I said, Vette trashed the competition from Ferrari, BMW Motorsport (factory effort with two cars) and Porsche in the Le Mans 24h race both in GTE Pro and GTE Am categories (the latter doesn't include the M3).

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Forget the ALMS for a minute (...)

You were the first to mention it...

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Off course tires do make a big difference.

This is the bottom line... comparing the Mustang Boss 302 with race-compound tires , allegadly 'built to lap Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca faster than a BMW M3', to a M3 in street tires, let alone the 1M, Cayman R or Evora S, isn't at the very least honest.

I say, it doesn't make any sense!

[Sy546]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

This is the bottom line... comparing the Mustang Boss 302 with race-compound tires , allegadly 'built to lap Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca faster than a BMW M3', to a M3 in street tires, let alone the 1M, Cayman R or Evora S, isn't at the very least honest.

I say, it doesn't make any sense!

exactly! i don't understand how you can directly compare any car on race comps to any car in street tires.

Give me a 1M on race comps + a stage 1 tune against a 302 any day.

[James T. Kirk]

1. Randy Pobst is an established race car driver.
2. Randy Pobst gave a qualitative opinion "hating" the 1M with almost no quantitative substance why.
3. I am an established adult with a lifetime of experience.
4. I have a qualitative opinion that Randy Pobst is a old douche bag.
5. Now we have two equally substantive opinions.

[Kayani_1]

I know you were not talking about failures or excuses. But Le mans 24 hours is just one race and not an entire season. That was my point.

The M3 GTRs trashing the Corvette GTR's for the entire season of battle is much more of an accomplishment then Corvette doing that in one single race. Because in entire season only the best comes to the top. Both manufacturers have tires they prefer and the driver setup that they like. They adjust their cars race to race and compete race after race no holding back. To me that is much more truer test of who is better.

Also, yes I was the first to mention ALMS and made my point with it. I just wanted to point out to you that M3's as in your words are "trashing" Chevys, Fords, and Porsches else where in other racing series. That is all despite the restrictions to even the competition.

By the way forget to mention that in Rolex series. The M3 GT car was wining the races until the Rolex guys chopped it balls off in favor of evening the competition. The M3 there is using a V8 that has been detuned even worse then the M3's in continental series. They detuned the high revving V8 down to 6800 rpm.....lol.... to give the domestic and Porsche cars a chance. Since then the M3 GT in rolex has been struggling like crazy.

Bottom line is M3's in various different racing series are doing excellent until they were restricted in one way or another to even the competition. Right now even the Z4 GTR's are doing excellent. Still sad that in yesterdays ALMS race the stupid corvette driver took out the race winning M3 GTR with a bozo inside move with no chance. Thus, causing BMW the 1st podium finish with 40 minutes to go in race. Otherwise there would be another 1st and 3rd finish by M3 GTR's in ALMS.

As far as Boss 302 vs M3 tire situation goes. I agree with you there.

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I wasn't talking about failures or excuses... as I said, Vette trashed the competition from Ferrari, BMW Motorsport (factory effort with two cars) and Porsche in the Le Mans 24h race both in GTE Pro and GTE Am categories (the latter doesn't include the M3).




You were the first to mention it...




This is the bottom line... comparing the Mustang Boss 302 with race-compound tires , allegadly 'built to lap Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca faster than a BMW M3', to a M3 in street tires, let alone the 1M, Cayman R or Evora S, isn't at the very least honest.

I say, it doesn't make any sense!

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I know you were not talking about failures or excuses. But Le mans 24 hours is just one race and not an entire season. That was my point.

That's the reason why the superiority of the Dunlop tires wasn't enough there!

I got your point.


Just out of curiosity: Did you know that the BMW M3 GT max torque is approx. 500Nm, just like the 1M?

[eisenb11]

Originally Posted by gthal

No, this is not a 1M v M3 debate. The 1M has had overwhelming positive assessments... so has the M3, which is now a relatively old design and still winning almost every comparison test. They are both great cars and both lead their respective segments IMO. I don't see where you think this has become a 1M v M3 debate or where M3 owners are bashing the 1M. Not happening. This is a "grow up and stop acting like a baby because someone doesn't love the 1M" debate. It seems to me that all here, including M3 owners, agree the 1M is a great car.

Exactly, this isn't 1M vs M3. I agree with you 100%. It's people being insecure. Who cares. Buy the car that you like. The 1M is a great car, but don't expect it to beat everything on Earth and for everyone to find new and unique ways to kiss it's rear.

People should Be real. It's not the best at everything and some people aren't going to like it. The reviewer is a pro driver. They can call him all the names they want but his opinion holds more weight than pretty much anyone in thus forum.

We all want our "investment" to be noteworthy, but in the end... The only way you're going to "win" is if you bought your car for you because there is no holy grail, there is no consensus on what is best, and there's always something better right around the corner.

[GoingTooFast]

Randy Pobst:

On the transmission... "The shifter is slick, and light. I really enjoy that. You gotta do it just with your fingertips. If you try to muscle it with a fist, you're gonna get the wrong gear."

On handling... "In fact, I hate this car. It won't turn. The thing I didn't like about the 135 was its mid-corner understeer, its reluctance to turn once it was in the corner, and the 1M still does that. And it's the primary thing I remember after driving the car. That it is very lazy on turn-in."

Overall... "It's almost like it was built by safety engineers. But only until you get on the power, and then, getting on the power, it's not really good at putting the power down, either. I'm just not impressed with this car. I like the M3 so much that I find the 1M to be very, very disappointing, though the M3 understeers too much, too. I think the lawyers are running the handling department at BMW right now, and they don't have to. Just make it handle like the 1988 M3 did -- that car was perfect.

Now just look at the vid:

[GoingTooFast]

Kayani_1,


As a better example of the Dunlop tyres superiority just look at the GT3 Europe championship standings:


1st - NEED FOR SPEED TEAM SCHUBERT - BMW Z4 GT3 (4.4-litre eight-cylinder engine derived from the BMW M3) - Dunlop tyres.

2nd - Faster Racing by DB MOTORSPORT - BMW Z4 GT3 (4.4-litre eight-cylinder engine derived from the BMW M3) - Michelin tyres.


Pilots Jeroen den Boer / Hoevert Vos from Faster Racing by DB MOTORSPORT are 4th overall and Harrie Kolen / Nick Catsburg (second car) are 10th, whereas pilots Edward Sandstroem / Abdulaziz Al Faisal from NEED FOR SPEED TEAM SCHUBERT are only 6th overall and Csaba Walter / Claudia Huertgen (second car) are 7th.


Faster Racing by DB MOTORSPORT only victory with Jeroen den Boer/Hoevert Vos in the Silverstone circuit - Race #2.

NEED FOR SPEED TEAM SCHUBERT only victory with Edward Sandström/Abdulaziz Al Faisal in the Algarve circuit - Race #1.



So NEED FOR SPEED TEAM SCHUBERT is in first place in front of Faster Racing by DB MOTORSPORT not because their pilots are better (they are worse positioned), not because the car is different (both race BMW Z4 GT3's) BUT because their cars are Dunlop equipped.


BMW Z4 GT3:

Length: 4,387 mm
Width: 2,012 mm
Height: 1,210 mm
Wheel base: 2,509 mm
Track width: 1,623 mm (front) 1,667 mm (rear)
Weight: approx. 1190 kg
Tank capacity/fuel: 105 litres, Super Plus Unleaded (98ROZ)
Engine
Engine type: V8
Capacity: 4,361 ccm
Bore x stroke: 92 x 82 mm
Compression: 13.0 : 1
Max. output: approx. 515 bhp at 8,300 rpm
Max. torque: approx. 515 Nm at approx. 5,500 rpm
Max. engine speed: 8,600 rpm
Cylinder block: Aluminium


I'm sorry for the off-topic!

[adc]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I'm not upset... I'm just being assertive. No one can honestly complaints about understeer in a car where its natural attitude is oversteer... one only has to use that massive torque!

He is saying that under steady cornering and turn-in, the car is understeering. He is saying that even under trail braking, he still found understeer.

Apparently, it does have quite a lot of power oversteer, which is not the same as negating the above. Does this make any sense to you? It does to me...


BTW the M3 understeers too at the track on turn-in, and again you can induce power oversteer but perhaps not as easily as in the 1M. I'll be experimenting with a square tire setup next.

Edit: And where are all the DC area 1M owners? I wanted to try one so bad, to decide if I should order one or not... too late now of course...

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by adc

He is saying that under steady cornering and turn-in, the car is understeering. He is saying that even under trail braking, he still found understeer.

Apparently, it does have quite a lot of power oversteer, which is not the same as negating the above. Does this make any sense to you? It does to me...


BTW the M3 understeers too at the track on turn-in, and again you can induce power oversteer but perhaps not as easily as in the 1M. I'll be experimenting with a square tire setup next.

Edit: And where are all the DC area 1M owners? I wanted to try one so bad, to decide if I should order one or not... too late now of course...

I'm in DC and will be at Summit Point with my 1M on Sept 24-25 and, possibly, on Sept. 14th. Come on by (or pm me if you want to come by my house in NW DC).

And, without a doubt, the car does understeer! Not anywhere as bad as most stock cars (including BMWs), but it is present. For this reason, I'm installing some adjustable camber/caster plates on mine.

Neil

[adc]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

I'm in DC and will be at Summit Point with my 1M on Sept 24-25 and, possibly, on Sept. 14th. Come on by (or pm me if you want to come by my house in NW DC).

And, without a doubt, the car does understeer! Not anywhere as bad as most stock cars (including BMWs), but it is present. For this reason, I'm installing some adjustable camber/caster plates on mine.

Neil

Neil, thanks for the offer - I'll PM you.

I'll be at Shenandoah with TrackDaze on Oct 1/2.

Andrei