Quaife LSD 128i

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

DCT, manual and auto are all different part#'s.

Auto 135i and manual 128i are different Quaife units?

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Auto 135i and manual 128i are different Quaife units?

Manual 135i's are different. Manual 128i and auto's are the same.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Manual 135i's are different. Manual 128i and auto's are the same.

Then we are all on the same page.

[clutch128]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

Cant wait to hear more of your impressions

Just got back from a 2-day CCA event at Spring Mountain. The LSD really changes this car a lot. I think the thing that was weirdest for me was how much more easily the rear end comes out. There's actually the ability to throttle steer the car, with rotation.
I'm a pretty novice driver so take that with a grain of salt. But, I'm pretty sure that if you're interested in driving at the limits the LSD definitely makes car control a lot more of a user-defined experience. Few videos below.

[631twentyeighteye]

My god that looks like so much fun. an LSD is on my list of things to complete the whole package. I hope i have a chance to track mine before and after to really feel the differences.

[Pyrat 2]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

... The Performance Gearing unit is a clutch based LSD, which means the unit will be loud and the engagement will be harsh. If you turn it down, the unit will be smoother/quieter, but the slip prevention will dip significantly(as per their specs, street is a fixed 30% instead of the 100% track mode offers). Quaife is near silent from the constant mesh gears.

The performance gearing LSD in my 330i is absolutely silent as is the quaife in my 135is. Also there is no harsh engagement. It does behave completely different though than the quaife. All clutch based LSDs will tend to lock on hard acceleration whether there is actual slip or not. The affect of this is that if you are reasonably hard on the gas coming out of a corner the diff lockup will add some understeer tendency. This affect at the track was my primary reason for switching from the clutch type on my 330 to the quaife when I bought my 135is.

To be sure though, Jim at Performance Gearing makes an absolutely silent and top notch LSD. I've had mine on for 6 years with multiple track sessions per year with no issues. He even added a drain plug to my diff as part of the build.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

The performance gearing LSD in my 330i is absolutely silent as is the quaife in my 135is. Also there is no harsh engagement. It does behave completely different though than the quaife. All clutch based LSDs will tend to lock on hard acceleration whether there is actual slip or not. The affect of this is that if you are reasonably hard on the gas coming out of a corner the diff lockup will add some understeer tendency. This affect at the track was my primary reason for switching from the clutch type on my 330 to the quaife when I bought my 135is.

To be sure though, Jim at Performance Gearing makes an absolutely silent and top notch LSD. I've had mine on for 6 years with multiple track sessions per year with no issues. He even added a drain plug to my diff as part of the build.

Right, but what is the lock %?

And for the record, this isn't an attack on clutch based LSDs.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

The performance gearing LSD in my 330i is absolutely silent as is the quaife in my 135is. Also there is no harsh engagement. It does behave completely different though than the quaife. All clutch based LSDs will tend to lock on hard acceleration whether there is actual slip or not. The affect of this is that if you are reasonably hard on the gas coming out of a corner the diff lockup will add some understeer tendency. This affect at the track was my primary reason for switching from the clutch type on my 330 to the quaife when I bought my 135is.

To be sure though, Jim at Performance Gearing makes an absolutely silent and top notch LSD. I've had mine on for 6 years with multiple track sessions per year with no issues. He even added a drain plug to my diff as part of the build.

Thanks for this. Among other feedback, it convinced to go with the Quaife. Dont need any hint of additional understeer, which I have almost eliminated with negative camber (front camber plates & M3 CA's)...

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

The performance gearing LSD in my 330i is absolutely silent as is the quaife in my 135is. Also there is no harsh engagement. It does behave completely different though than the quaife. All clutch based LSDs will tend to lock on hard acceleration whether there is actual slip or not. The affect of this is that if you are reasonably hard on the gas coming out of a corner the diff lockup will add some understeer tendency. This affect at the track was my primary reason for switching from the clutch type on my 330 to the quaife when I bought my 135is.

To be sure though, Jim at Performance Gearing makes an absolutely silent and top notch LSD. I've had mine on for 6 years with multiple track sessions per year with no issues. He even added a drain plug to my diff as part of the build.

Might be talking to you soon here, as I'm looking at a performance gearing LSD.

PS - For the record, I just sent an email to him about a LS for my car:

Thanks for your inquiry.

It's too bad they won't allow at least the stock automatic ratio (3.73) , but at least limited slip is an option.

The type of limited slip I use is a Salisbury ( friction discs , mechanical ramping) because it is capable of both static and dynamic lock in a multitude of configurations depending upon engine output and intended use. It's true that your M-variable LS unit has static lock ( the "at rest" resistance to rotation between the rear wheels), but for some reason BMW decided to keep the amount of static lock very low (usually in the 40 lbs/ft range, but some brand new units are only 25 lbs/ft) neither setting being very helpful because 1) 25% would be closer to 60 - 70 lbs/ft and 2) there is no mechanism to maintain the static setting by compensating for wear over time, so the M-variable static setting dissipates to zero over time. Another reason that the M-variable is not considered to be a competition LS is that the dynamic lock ( additional to static lock, throttle initiated) is viscous activated, so just like a Subaru, there is a time-lag of 1.5 to 2.0 seconds during inside wheel spin that it takes to move the viscous fluid from its reservoir to the pressurized chamber that loads the friction discs. Certainly streetable, but frustrating on the track.

The distinct advantage to the Salisbury , when setup correctly, is 1) static lock can be set at an optimal amount on a case-by-case basis, to match driving style, type of competition, engine torque curve, etc. to a "sweet spot" in the 35-40% range and 2) dynamic lock is anticipatory (not reactive to wheel spin) in that given how much you throttle the engine and what ramp angle you are using this additional lock occurs before torque reaches the rear wheels, instead of after. Ideally, you only want as much lock at you need at any given moment, so although this is more of a lock baseline (to cover extreme situations e.g., inside wheel off the ground) , the dynamic (throttle controlled) lock that momentarily adds lock depending upon the situation is fully variable/controlled by the driver and whatever separate rates for acceleration/deceleration are chosen during the build.

Since the 128i never had limited slip, converting will definitely change the handling/performance characteristics, so you will need to establish a baseline and determine, over time, what if any handling issues need to be enhanced or modified. It is up to you where you want to start but my recommendation would be:

- four 90mm friction discs
- either 45/45 or 40/90 ramp angles
- 75-80 lbs/ft static lock

And even though a race configuration, it is perfectly streetable because the transitions from accel/decel and static/dynamic lock and back are seamless/quiet.

The unit I would ship would be a complete final drive with the limited slip and 3.23 gearset installed/setup, so that it only needs gearlube added before installing into the rear subframe exactly like your stock final drive is removed.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Might be talking to you soon here, as I'm looking at a performance gearing LSD.

PS - For the record, I just sent an email to him about a LS for my car:

Clutch style LSD is great for the track, but does require more service than the gear type. The life span is also shorter on the clutch type vs. gear.

For a dedicated track car or race car, go with the clutch type. For a street car, a gear type would be ideal for no noise operations and long service life.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Clutch style LSD is great for the track, but does require more service than the gear type. The life span is also shorter on the clutch type vs. gear.

For a dedicated track car or race car, go with the clutch type. For a street car, a gear type would be ideal for no noise operations and long service life.

Which is where my thinking starts.

My 128 is going to be a autocross and track car, but will still maintain DD status.

[kobeballer96]

Might be my next mod! I have a credit card I got done paying off but welp maybe start adding another payment lol. How much is the pumpkin? I can do the labor myself

[dcaron9999]

Shamelees thread jack:

I can vouch for Harold for your track or performance mods. He has been exceptionally helpful in helping with my LSD decision. Nice to work with him, and he is now prepping a bolted ring gear, 3.46 final drive, large housing, Quaife ATB LSD for my 6-speed manual 135i. He helped me source the proper diff housing, to match my stock welded ring gear, 3.08 final drive diff housing.

Again great to work with, patient and diligent fellow, with tracking experience and long history with BMW vehicles, and ASE certified.

[accel]

Originally Posted by clutch128

I couldn't find a review on this setup so I figured I'd post a review of the Quaife LSD I just got installed on my 2011 128i.

Until I got my 128 I had never done any high performance driving. I know this isn't probably the best track car, but it's been a fun experience over the last three years to take it to the track, find something I don't like, and then attempt to address it.

I realize the 128 isn't a particularly powerful car and a lot of reactions will be why would you need an LSD on a 128? What motivated me with the LSD was tight radius turns at low gearing and high speed exits with the prevalence of power oversteer.

A few examples are the tight 2nd gear turns at California Speedway turn 9 and turn 11 at Laguna Seca. During these exits with DCT on the car becomes violent during the inevitable correction. If the DCT is off it has a prevalence to slip an it just generally feels unstable/sloppy.

For higher speed stuff in exits, where as a newer driver I have a tendency to get on the throttle too much, too early during an early entrance, any power oversteer is very difficult to modulate/control. Exit of turn 6 at California Speedway is a good example, but there are similar setups at Willow/Thunderhill/Chuckwalla I've felt the same way about.

When I got this installed my feeling was I wouldn't notice any difference in street driving and would have to wait till I got to the track and even then was skeptical I'd feel a big change.

But, I'm surprised was a big difference I've felt immediately with this thing. Off the line in 1st and tight radius in 2nd feel much more controlled. I can't even get the DCT to engage. It just feels much more sure footed. I'll have to give an update once I get to the track late Dec here to try it out with significant speeds, but my initial impressions are quite good.

For reference, here's the LSD I had installed
http://www.hpashop.com/Quaife-LSD-BM...e9x-none-M.htm
Normally, I like to do my own work on the car, but this was out of my depth. I had Harold do the install and he did a great job harold@hpautosport.com

I've had Quaife installed at my previous car, honda prelude. Pretty substantial difference I must say.

What's the approximate install cost for your 128i?

[clutch128]

Originally Posted by accel

I've had Quaife installed at my previous car, honda prelude. Pretty substantial difference I must say.

What's the approximate install cost for your 128i?

honestly, i can't remember. I'd just chat with Harold or email him.

[2tonik]

The Toyobaru twins have far less low end and mid range torque, not to mention less torque overall and a Torsen (same thing as a Quaife LSD) is stock on all trims. The RX-8 (my previous mount) was a delight with its Torsen and it only had 159ft/lbs of torque.

I can get my 128i's Quaife "working" at every 90 degree intersection, off ramp, parking lot, etc. (only when no other cars are around, no peds present, and all other conditions are "go") with out any difficulty, in first and second gear.

That's where I have my fun - at low speeds.

There's a great S-curve on Wade Avenue in Raleigh NC where I live. In safe conditions I can go through the curve in 3 at mid revs and bring the rear end around with power. As the inside rear wheel un-weights with increasing throttle and cresting the hill, the 128i begins to rotate. With out the LSD the car just slowed down.

Much more fun now.

Oh yeah, a "shout out" to Mike at VAC Motorsports in Philadelphia for a great build and kudos to Korman Autoworks in Greensboro NC for a seamless and perfect install.

[dcaron9999]

Just got my Quaife 3.46FD installed yesterday on my 135i. What a blast! Car is still on 205/50R17 winter tires, with Cobb Stage 1 aggressive tune. The 3.08 stock FD to 3.46 FD provides much more torque in all gears, and rear end does not tend to kick out in hard straight line acceleration. Cant wait for winter to end over here in Quebec, Canada, so I can experience this fully on 255/35R18 sticky summer rubber at the local ICAR race track.

Thanks to Harold at HP Autowerks for the build, and VAG Motorosports for the install!

If you are willing to search, you may get lucky as I did and find a pristine 3.46 large pumpkin housing (bolted ring gear) for a few hundred dollars at a recycler, to replace your stock 3.08 pumpkin housing (welded ring gear) in your manual 135i!

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Just got my Quaife 3.46FD installed yesterday on my 135i. What a blast! Car is still on 205/50R17 winter tires, with Cobb Stage 1 aggressive tune. The 3.08 stock FD to 3.46 FD provides much more torque in all gears, and rear end does not tend to kick out in hard straight line acceleration. Cant wait for winter to end over here in Quebec, Canada, so I can experience this fully on 255/35R18 sticky summer rubber at the local ICAR race track.

Thanks to Harold at HP Autowerks for the build, and VAG Motorosports for the install!

If you are willing to search, you may get lucky as I did and find a pristine 3.46 large pumpkin housing (bolted ring gear) for a few hundred dollars at a recycler, to replace your stock 3.08 pumpkin housing (welded ring gear) in your manual 135i!

As a warning to 128i owners, if you go this route, you will need to buy the 135i specific Quaife, which is a different unit.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

As a warning to 128i owners, if you go this route, you will need to buy the 135i specific Quaife, which is a different unit.

Good point!

Please do your homework before buying to avoid buying an improper diff housing. There are two pumpkin sizes (small or large), two type of ring gears (welded or bolted), and four final drives (2.56, 2.81, 3.08, 3.46). The 3.08 and 3.46 FD are the most common.

Its just easier and cheaper to convert a bolted ring gear open differential. Just check the last 7 digits of your VIN against realoem.com . If your Production date is between August 2006 to August 2007, you have a bolted ring gear, and you only need to swap the internals to the LSD chunk of your choice (Quaife, Wavetrac, OS Giken, Turner Motorsports, etc). This is the scenario with the least labour, and a lot of shops can do this for you.

If you are outside of this Production date range (August 2006 to August 2007)you have a welded diff. A specialized diff shop with lathing machine needs to do the LSD conversion for you for a little more money (HP Autowerks, VAC Motorsport, DiffsOnline).

The best FAQ with pictures to educate myself on the process is this one:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=differential.

This table highlites the options and subtle differences, to help you pick and search for the proper used pumpkin
Master Reference Chart:

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Good point!

Please do your homework before buying to avoid buying an improper diff housing. There are two pumpkin sizes (small or large), two type of ring gears (welded or bolted), and four final drives (2.56, 2.81, 3.08, 3.46). The 3.08 and 3.46 FD are the most common.

Its just easier and cheaper to convert a bolted ring gear open differential. Just check the last 7 digits of your VIN against realoem.com . If your Production date is between August 2006 to August 2007, you have a bolted ring gear, and you only need to swap the internals to the LSD chunk of your choice (Quaife, Wavetrac, OS Giken, Turner Motorsports, etc). This is the scenario with the least labour, and a lot of shops can do this for you.

If you are outside of this Production date range (August 2006 to August 2007)you have a welded diff. A specialized diff shop with lathing machine needs to do the LSD conversion for you for a little more money (HP Autowerks, VAC Motorsport, DiffsOnline).

This is not the case for the 128i. ALL 128i ring gears are bolted for ALL model years.