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      09-10-2010, 07:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
Then pray tell us why you are getting the performance version of an already high performing car?
LOL !!! I AM NOT getting the 1M just yet...to many bills, kid in college etcetc... but do like the 19's that are on order for different reasons on my current 135i...Well i had Advan RS Dark Gunmetal on my last ride and loved them for there strength and lightness..but very expensive and feel they look best on JDM cars..Evo, Sti, etc..The 135i only has a few rims that i find attractive and FIT properly..i dislike stretched tires on oversize rims and love the Alufelgen SF71's. I am on the Group Buy for these and getting either Dark Gunmetal or Matte Black 19's..They are not offered in 135i specific fire yet in 18's. I no the car will handle a tad better on 18's and 18' are a tad lighter as well but i LOVE the look of these rims and especially the 19's so i am willing to give up a little weight and maybe handling maybe...My car is 100% street, i do not race, but do drive aggressive and do quite a few pulls when the chance is there...And yes this car had good TQ and i upgraded a few months back to the JB3 running only map 5 on Shell VPower 93...and brothers this car is way faster than stock 135i, maybe even faster than the up and coming 1M?? it's almost to much so indeed SPEED is no issue here. 19' for the sexy looks, SEXY it is! And this will be my 1st 19's ever so....

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/...f094dcf9_b.jpg

Last edited by IZAGLO; 09-10-2010 at 08:00 PM..
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      09-10-2010, 08:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by spiderz17 View Post
Maybe because he wants to??

As Tessio already said, no one has to justify anything to anyone except themselves (and maybe a skeptical wife ).
Ai! I forgot about the wife!
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      09-25-2010, 10:52 AM   #25
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Here's a thought on the 18 vs 19 argument: all of the test 1M's that we've seen have had 19" rims. If this is truly the case, as in they haven't done any testing on 18's, then the car is designed around having 19" rims. Could getting 18's upset the balance of the car? I don't know, just wondering aloud here. I imagine that even if this was the case, it would be hardly noticeable.
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      09-26-2010, 04:11 PM   #26
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i recall back in 06 or 07 the folks at techart preached cargraphic would never compete at the tuner grand prix on 19 inch wheels with their prepped gt3rs... lesson learned by techart that year... 2nd place is first place for losers!!!! cargraphic ran their 19 inch racing wheels with dunlop sp9000/sportmax and dominated!!!

Last edited by Fone Phreak; 09-26-2010 at 04:23 PM.. Reason: spelling
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      09-26-2010, 04:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderz17 View Post
Here's a thought on the 18 vs 19 argument: all of the test 1M's that we've seen have had 19" rims. If this is truly the case, as in they haven't done any testing on 18's, then the car is designed around having 19" rims. Could getting 18's upset the balance of the car? I don't know, just wondering aloud here. I imagine that even if this was the case, it would be hardly noticeable.
What is the planned profile of the 19"?
It seems that gearing of the MT will be the same as our 135's, so if they are using 19's the profile would have to result in a smaller sidewall to keep overall gearing the same. The new tires will be wider. If the 19's end up having a slightly larger circumference by keeping the sidewall the same, then there would be a reduction in acceleration gearing, with a positive towards higher MPH in same gear, same rpm.

For ride quality, lower profile 19's would mean there needs to be some suspension tuning consideration to keep daily road impacts to a minimum.
In the E46 M3, the 19's were/are very jarring for daily driving, a bit more than with the 18's.

If someone opted for aftermarket 18's, it would result in a taller sidewall to keep the circumference the same. That would result in slightly altered handling due to added tire suspension. But, it could be good or bad.
We'll know when someone tries it.

In the 1's, when people switch over to 17" winter tires it makes for an inaccurate comparison, because when people switch to winter tires, not only is the 17" sidewall taller, but the overall tire composition is softer as well. People have commented that a 17" winter option results in "mushier/squirmy" handling, but that's a lot to do with the winter tire rubber composition and thicker/deeper tread.

I don't recall anyone going to a 17" high performance summer tire so that a true size/handling comparison can be made.
Have you read anyone doing such a thing and posting it on a forum?
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      09-27-2010, 12:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
If someone opted for aftermarket 18's, it would result in a taller sidewall to keep the circumference the same. That would result in slightly altered handling due to added tire suspension. But, it could be good or bad.
We'll know when someone tries it.
Yeah, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I don't recall anyone going to a 17" high performance summer tire so that a true size/handling comparison can be made.
Have you read anyone doing such a thing and posting it on a forum?
I have not. I've read a lot of people extolling on the theory that smaller rims should be better, but I haven't seen any actual comparisons. Even then, to make a truly accurate comparison, you'd need to do a blind test in which the driver didn't know if he/she was driving on the larger or smaller rims. Anyone have sets of 17 & 18 (or 18 & 19) performance tires and want to run this test?
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      09-27-2010, 01:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
What is the planned profile of the 19"?
It seems that gearing of the MT will be the same as our 135's, so if they are using 19's the profile would have to result in a smaller sidewall to keep overall gearing the same. The new tires will be wider. If the 19's end up having a slightly larger circumference by keeping the sidewall the same, then there would be a reduction in acceleration gearing, with a positive towards higher MPH in same gear, same rpm.

For ride quality, lower profile 19's would mean there needs to be some suspension tuning consideration to keep daily road impacts to a minimum.
In the E46 M3, the 19's were/are very jarring for daily driving, a bit more than with the 18's.

If someone opted for aftermarket 18's, it would result in a taller sidewall to keep the circumference the same. That would result in slightly altered handling due to added tire suspension. But, it could be good or bad.
We'll know when someone tries it.

In the 1's, when people switch over to 17" winter tires it makes for an inaccurate comparison, because when people switch to winter tires, not only is the 17" sidewall taller, but the overall tire composition is softer as well. People have commented that a 17" winter option results in "mushier/squirmy" handling, but that's a lot to do with the winter tire rubber composition and thicker/deeper tread.

I don't recall anyone going to a 17" high performance summer tire so that a true size/handling comparison can be made.
Have you read anyone doing such a thing and posting it on a forum?
I think the gearing on the 1M will be different to the standard 135i to compensate for the taller tyre side wall profile. The side walls of the 1M are definitely taller than 225/35 19 and 255/30 19 which is what most people with 19's on their 1ner are running.

On another note, all these people that are going on about how important it is to have a lighter 18 inch wheel, yet are running CSL style wheels. Most CSL's are only about 3 pounds lighter per wheels compared to the OEM wheels. And the difference between 18 and 19 inch is probably about only 1 pound. If you were that concerned about weight savings you would invest in a proper light weight wheel such as the Yokohama RZ's and RS's for example. Even in 19 inch, these wheels only weigh about 18 pounds which is about an 8 pound saving over the average 18 inch CSL style wheel.
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      09-27-2010, 08:37 AM   #30
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I dont justify it...

The car runs stiff enough without the added weight and stiffness of a lower profile tire and a bigger rim...
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      09-27-2010, 01:22 PM   #31
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I'd switch down to 18s if I got the car.
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      09-27-2010, 01:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The1 View Post
if people have issues with what i'm saying, how come formula 1 doesn't use low profile tires. or even drag cars?
For drag, you want the sidewall to be able to twist a bit... the structure of the tire is just completely different.
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      09-27-2010, 01:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
For drag, you want the sidewall to be able to twist a bit... the structure of the tire is just completely different.
it still applies to a limited extent on street cars. but almost not at all on excessively low profile tires.
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      09-27-2010, 02:05 PM   #34
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So light = acceleration, larger rim = more responsive and grippy. 18s seem to be great compromise. Oh yea, 19s look better.

I'd pick 18s all else equal.

HOWEVER, there's way too little difference to bother changing rims or not buying a particular car.

Last edited by Kurt_OH; 09-27-2010 at 02:26 PM..
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      09-27-2010, 11:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I think the gearing on the 1M will be different to the standard 135i to compensate for the taller tyre side wall profile. The side walls of the 1M are definitely taller than 225/35 19 and 255/30 19 which is what most people with 19's on their 1ner are running.

On another note, all these people that are going on about how important it is to have a lighter 18 inch wheel, yet are running CSL style wheels. Most CSL's are only about 3 pounds lighter per wheels compared to the OEM wheels. And the difference between 18 and 19 inch is probably about only 1 pound. If you were that concerned about weight savings you would invest in a proper light weight wheel such as the Yokohama RZ's and RS's for example. Even in 19 inch, these wheels only weigh about 18 pounds which is about an 8 pound saving over the average 18 inch CSL style wheel.
Unless we know the actual ratio of the 19's we don't know if they will be taller. Do you know for sure that the overall diameter will be increased?
I don't mean the diameter of the 19's wheel that will be used, as we know that is larger, but, do you know what the profile will be, for sure?

People go on about lighter weight in wheel/tire because it does make a difference. Stock for stock a 19 is a good bit heavier than an 18, and when you include the tires the difference is even greater.
If BMW goes with a lighter wheel compound, they could easily have used the same compound for a lighter 18.
The 19" choice is probably more cosmetic, as it doesn't help reduce unsprung weight.
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      09-28-2010, 12:36 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Unless we know the actual ratio of the 19's we don't know if they will be taller. Do you know for sure that the overall diameter will be increased?
I don't mean the diameter of the 19's wheel that will be used, as we know that is larger, but, do you know what the profile will be, for sure?

People go on about lighter weight in wheel/tire because it does make a difference. Stock for stock a 19 is a good bit heavier than an 18, and when you include the tires the difference is even greater.
If BMW goes with a lighter wheel compound, they could easily have used the same compound for a lighter 18.
The 19" choice is probably more cosmetic, as it doesn't help reduce unsprung weight.
BMW doesn't use run flat on their M cars, so it is likely they are running a lighter wheel then our 135 or similar cars. so it won't matter if they are using the 18 or 19 on the car, because either way, it's likely going to be lighter then what we are currently "blessed" with.
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      09-28-2010, 02:19 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderz17 View Post
I have not. I've read a lot of people extolling on the theory that smaller rims should be better, but I haven't seen any actual comparisons.
Here are some published road test observations.

Automobile Magazine, 2009 V6 Camaro:
"Steering feel is still under development - at the time of our drive, the 18-inch wheel and tire package offered much better feedback and feel than the 19-inch setup"
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...equipment.html

edmunds, Z4 35is:
"And with this lower-profile rubber, the Z4 35is should grip better and handle better than the 2009 Z4 35i with 18s (225/40R18 front, 255/35R18 rear), and all will be forgiven, right? Sorry, no.
Apart from the tires, the suspensions on these two cars are pretty much identical. Our 2011 Z4 35is comes standard with the M suspension, which specifies adaptive dampers (and driver-selectable Normal, Sport and Sport+ modes) and a 0.4-inch-lower ride height. Our 2009 Z4 tester had this setup as an option.
Yet the Z4 sDrive35is is much slower than the 2009 Z4 through the slalom. Its 66.7-mph performance — versus the 2009 Z4's 68.9 mph — is closer to what we'd expect from a front-wheel-drive family sedan than a rear-drive sports car.
Blame goes to those very short, very stiff sidewalls, which don't have enough compliance to stay glued over bumps and ripples. There's a small dip at the third cone in our slalom that sends the car skittering sideways and makes our test-driver late for the next cone. The more aggressive damper maps in Sport and Sport+ modes only make the car more nervous, something we also notice when picking up the pace on local back roads."
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/z4/201...full-test.html

There are other tests on the web indicating that lower-spec cars feel better over real-world roads. Eg. Seat Ibiza FR vs Cupra, CTS 2.8 vs 3.6, Mustang GT vs V6, Z4 23i vs 35i, E250 CDI vs E500 etc. While it's not always down to wheel sizes or aspect ratios (though those do affect the ride), a softer setup is sometimes preferred, and that's what a taller sidewall can help to acheive. It should be noted that some of these models have more power and heavier engines, so need stiffer setups to maintain body control.

BTW, in an old article of Evo Magazine, they answer a reader's technical comments about why F1 uses such tall sidewalls. While the sizes of the wheels are limited by the rules, the benefit of the sidewall is that the tires are doing some of the work of the suspension, which would otherwise deflect more were it not the very high spring rates they need to run in order to keep the cars from bottoming out under high downforce. Additionally, the extra squirm helps keep more rubber in contact with the road in bumpier corners, and it can help to increase the contact patch under high cornering loads. Which is also partially why dragsters run wrinkle-wall tires (not in corners obviously, but with added benefit of weight transfer).
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      09-28-2010, 02:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Here are some published road test observations.

Automobile Magazine, 2009 V6 Camaro:
"Steering feel is still under development - at the time of our drive, the 18-inch wheel and tire package offered much better feedback and feel than the 19-inch setup"
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...equipment.html

edmunds, Z4 35is:
"And with this lower-profile rubber, the Z4 35is should grip better and handle better than the 2009 Z4 35i with 18s (225/40R18 front, 255/35R18 rear), and all will be forgiven, right? Sorry, no.
Apart from the tires, the suspensions on these two cars are pretty much identical. Our 2011 Z4 35is comes standard with the M suspension, which specifies adaptive dampers (and driver-selectable Normal, Sport and Sport+ modes) and a 0.4-inch-lower ride height. Our 2009 Z4 tester had this setup as an option.
Yet the Z4 sDrive35is is much slower than the 2009 Z4 through the slalom. Its 66.7-mph performance — versus the 2009 Z4's 68.9 mph — is closer to what we'd expect from a front-wheel-drive family sedan than a rear-drive sports car.
Blame goes to those very short, very stiff sidewalls, which don't have enough compliance to stay glued over bumps and ripples. There's a small dip at the third cone in our slalom that sends the car skittering sideways and makes our test-driver late for the next cone. The more aggressive damper maps in Sport and Sport+ modes only make the car more nervous, something we also notice when picking up the pace on local back roads."
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/z4/201...full-test.html

There are other tests on the web indicating that lower-spec cars feel better over real-world roads. Eg. Seat Ibiza FR vs Cupra, CTS 2.8 vs 3.6, Mustang GT vs V6, Z4 23i vs 35i, E250 CDI vs E500 etc. While it's not always down to wheel sizes or aspect ratios (though those do affect the ride), a softer setup is sometimes preferred, and that's what a taller sidewall can help to acheive. It should be noted that some of these models have more power and heavier engines, so need stiffer setups to maintain body control.

BTW, in an old article of Evo Magazine, they answer a reader's technical comments about why F1 uses such tall sidewalls. While the sizes of the wheels are limited by the rules, the benefit of the sidewall is that the tires are doing some of the work of the suspension, which would otherwise deflect more were it not the very high spring rates they need to run in order to keep the cars from bottoming out under high downforce. Additionally, the extra squirm helps keep more rubber in contact with the road in bumpier corners, and it can help to increase the contact patch under high cornering loads. Which is also partially why dragsters run wrinkle-wall tires (not in corners obviously, but with added benefit of weight transfer).
thank you for your time and effort to research this for the thread.... putting us lazy people to shame
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      09-28-2010, 05:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The1 View Post
thank you for your time and effort to research this for the thread.... putting us lazy people to shame
Well-composed and well-stated indeed. Thank you.

I never doubted that the 18s would be slightly better than 19s. I'm just surprised, especially in the Z4 comparison, that the difference was that noticeable.
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      09-28-2010, 10:17 AM   #40
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The fact they are one size bigger doesn't necessarily mean they will be heavier than the stock 18" on the 135i (hopefully). Also, given car is with wider fender flares, it may be possible to fit the same profile tires as on the 18s. At the end of the day, let's just make sure BMW doesn't throw a set of Run Craps on it (seen it before do so on the ///M SAVs, which is one of many 'firts' that went against all that is ///M).
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      09-29-2010, 10:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The1 View Post
BMW doesn't use run flat on their M cars, so it is likely they are running a lighter wheel then our 135 or similar cars. so it won't matter if they are using the 18 or 19 on the car, because either way, it's likely going to be lighter then what we are currently "blessed" with.
Yes, I know they don't.
But, again, all things being equal, like wheel material and tires, an 18" setup will always be lighter than a 19" setup.

So unless there is some real performance reason for 19's, it's cosmetic.
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      10-04-2010, 10:34 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The1
BMW doesn't use run flat on their M cars, so it is likely they are running a lighter wheel then our 135 or similar cars. so it won't matter if they are using the 18 or 19 on the car, because either way, it's likely going to be lighter then what we are currently "blessed" with
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Yes, I know they don't.
But, again, all things being equal, like wheel material and tires, an 18" setup will always be lighter than a 19" setup.

So unless there is some real performance reason for 19's, it's cosmetic.
Actually not true, BMW puts RFTs on ///M cars - look no further than the X5 ///M and X6 ///M. Maybe to many of us they are not 'real' ///M cars, but in actuality they are. BMW broke many ///M 'traditions' with those pigs, just to name a few:

1. ///M offering with RFTs
2. ///M offering with auto tranny (SMG is technically not, so this is a first)
3. ///M offering with no perforated brake rotors
4. ///M offering with weight exceeding 4100lbs
5. ///M offering with AWD

I can prolly add more things here, but it only will sadden me further...
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      10-04-2010, 10:44 AM   #43
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      11-21-2010, 09:47 PM   #44
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19's don't HAVE to be heavier than 18's. On my 535 I went from the stock 18" wheels with runflats to aftermarket 19's and non runflats...my 19" wheel/tire combo was more that 10 LBS lighter per corner than the stock 18" combo AND with the profiles of tires I selected I matched the overall diameter to stock. The difference in IMPROVED performance over stock could be felt as a reduction of +40 lbs in unsprung weight is a lot
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