Accusump install

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by rac

My 2c's on general discussion;
- wet sump systems are never perfect,
- a lot of racing classes have wet sumps mandated and live with oil pressure dips for many racing seasons without failure.
- bearing failure is a function of both rpm and load
- the minimum requirement for oil pressure would be a function of rpm, load and bearing surface area.

these engines are capable of producing high loads at low rpm hence oem design of the oil pressure curve rapid ramp up.

my advice to anyone logging oil pressure would be to plot their track data against both rpm and load. if the dips are only at high lateral g's with low engine load but still > 10psi per 1000rpm i wouldn't waste your time resources solving it. if the dips persist as you load up the engine and go full throttle on corner exit then that might be something to specifically target. this is were electronic control of the accumulated oil with say both rpm and tps as inputs could be useful in making the best use of a limited volume of oil.

alternatively if you really wanted to re-create the oem pressure v rpm curve i guess you could program a solenoid with that curve minus a practical trigger margin and just keep adding accumulators until there are no more significant dips past the trigger margin....

An accumulator is a very simple installation and relatively affordable. If you're doing this type of driving it's really a "might as well install one" type thing imo.

It's true, a hiccup of air at the pickup tube isn't going to instantly seize an engine... but that sudden drop in pressure surely is doing damage over time and a $400 device can minimize that damage or even save your engine in the event of an oiling failure on track. Does everyone need one? No. Plenty of people track their cars for years without issue. But if you're willing to drop 10k in mods to make it a "race car" then this should be one of those mods lol.

Check out this log:
https://datazap.me/u/mkilgore/ncm-su...3447-3447-4470

And I have logged and posted similar logs. Timestamp 1474 he is back on throttle with rpm and boost rising over 3,000rpm (engine is loaded) and oil pressure is continuing to drop. I know on a dyno my n55 PWG car made as much as 507wtq on the stock turbo at 27xxrpm. He's not at 100% pedal input / load but still.... logs have captured oil pressure continuing to dip in a turn while the user is in a region of the oil pressure map that should be achieving 60psi+ and they are at 20-30psi.

The issue isn't that "30psi is not enough oil pressure at 3,000rpm" because that SHOULD be plenty of oil pressure to be honest. The issue is that the oil pressure is supposed to be 60psi+ thus indicating that the 30psi the sensor is seeing is aerated oil thus indicating an oil pickup issue and thus resulting in significantly reduced load capacity of the oil film. 30psi of aerated oil is not the same as 30psi of air free oil.

Also, oil pressure sensors have a resolution and logging has a resolution as well. The accusump will dump oil in between shifts indicating pressure dipped below the 60psi of the electronic switch I chose... but logs show 80psi still. To catch the "trough" of oil pressure in a momentary bit of starvation is not guaranteed just because you are logging. I know after logging hundreds of autocross runs I had a few logs showing as little as 10psi at 3000rpm. Just a matter of the sensor/log grabbing a datapoint at the exact moment of the lowest low. Just another consideration... TLDR: the problem could be even worse than a basic log would indicate.

[rac]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

An accumulator is a very simple installation and relatively affordable. If you're doing this type of driving it's really a "might as well install one" type thing imo.

i agree, my comments are really targeted at those chasing the perfect oil pressure after they have implemented the simple stuff. i would go one step further and say a simple baffle in the sump is also a no brainer, without going crazy on complex trap door and plumbing solutions. its the 80/20 rule, none of the solutions for a wet sump is a 100% solution until you switch to a dry sump.... i've seen people chase this mirage for years without ever being happy.

Originally Posted by bbnks2

And I have logged and posted similar logs. Timestamp 1474 he is back on throttle with rpm and boost rising over 3,000rpm (engine is loaded) and oil pressure is continuing to drop. I know on a dyno my n55 PWG car made as much as 507wtq on the stock turbo at 27xxrpm. He's not at 100% pedal input / load but still.... logs have captured oil pressure continuing to dip in a turn while the user is in a region of the oil pressure map that should be achieving 60psi+ and they are at 20-30psi.

is this with or without the accumulator? if it is still happening with an accumulator and a basic sump baffle then i guess more time resources is warranted. i would add a pressure sensor to the accumulator and log it find out exactly how it is being depleted and go from there. ideally the accumulator should be controlled by a programmable valve to make best use of its volume.

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Also, oil pressure sensors have a resolution and logging has a resolution as well. The accusump will dump oil in between shifts indicating pressure dipped below the 60psi of the electronic switch I chose... but logs show 80psi still. To catch the "trough" of oil pressure in a momentary bit of starvation is not guaranteed just because you are logging. I know after logging hundreds of autocross runs I had a few logs showing as little as 10psi at 3000rpm. Just a matter of the sensor/log grabbing a datapoint at the exact moment of the lowest low. Just another consideration... TLDR: the problem could be even worse than a basic log would indicate.

i thought this might the case judging by some of the data i've seen posted. cant see it being a sensor issue, it must be logging frequency. i can log up to 1000hz, i guarantee i could pick up those dips if they were occurring at the place of the sensor. i havent tracked the car since having this set-up, maybe when i do the data will keep me awake at night.... lol.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by rac

i agree, my comments are really targeted at those chasing the perfect oil pressure after they have implemented the simple stuff. i would go one step further and say a simple baffle in the sump is also a no brainer, without going crazy on complex trap door and plumbing solutions. its the 80/20 rule, none of the solutions for a wet sump is a 100% solution until you switch to a dry sump.... i've seen people chase this mirage for years without ever being happy.



is this with or without the accumulator? if it is still happening with an accumulator and a basic sump baffle then i guess more time resources is warranted. i would add a pressure sensor to the accumulator and log it find out exactly how it is being depleted and go from there. ideally the accumulator should be controlled by a programmable valve to make best use of its volume.



i thought this might the case judging by some of the data i've seen posted. cant see it being a sensor issue, it must be logging frequency. i can log up to 1000hz, i guarantee i could pick up those dips if they were occurring at the place of the sensor. i havent tracked the car since having this set-up, maybe when i do the data will keep me awake at night.... lol.

MHD is 10hz I think? not sure tbh I know the canbus is the limiting facto because MHD is polling 30 pids or whatever.

Oil pressure dips were without the accumulator. With it I have not seen below 30-40psi. It smooths the dips pretty well.

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

MHD is 10hz I think? not sure tbh I know the canbus is the limiting facto because MHD is polling 30 pids or whatever.

Oil pressure dips were without the accumulator. With it I have not seen below 30-40psi. It smooths the dips pretty well.

My experience is similar. This is why I copied your setup.

[imported_mega]

Does anyone know of a replacement 30 PSI normally closed switch I need to bump up the pressure a tiny bit on my accusump setup and my switch is bad anyway. Solenoid is still good I would just power it up all the time but I don't think the moroso setup can take continuous duty

[Dieselboy]

AndyW bbnks2

Trying to decide between using a manual valve versus an EPC, and what the benefits are besides convenience. The EPC will allow discharge at a specific PSI (< 55PSI for discharge in the case of the 24-275X) while an open manual valve will constantly empty and refill based on the engine pressure to accusump pre-charge pressure ratio?

So, using an EPC, the accumulator will fill above 60PSI, and since it won't release until below 55PSI, it can fill a larger volume, and with a larger fill volume the initial discharge rate will be faster.

For example, with an EPC using a pre-charge of 10PSI and the engine hits 80PSI, the accumulator will fill and hold 2.63qt until discharge at 55PSI. Where as with an open manual valve, the useable volume in the accumulator with the same pre-charge is 2.45qt at 55PSI?

So the benefit to the EPC is more oil discharge at a faster rate when open?

[Dieselboy]

I've plotted it out here. I assume the EPC valve will immediately trend along the blue line once it's opened. Another thing to consider is that the EPC will not allow oil to refill the accumulator until 60PSI, where-as a manual valve will allow oil to trend along the blue line in discharge and recharge. I suppose the benefit of this is that engine oil pressure will be returned to 60PSI more quickly? Are there drawback to forcing excess oil into the engine and holding it there until 60PSI is reached?

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by Dieselboy

AndyW bbnks2

Trying to decide between using a manual valve versus an EPC, and what the benefits are besides convenience. The EPC will allow discharge at a specific PSI (< 55PSI for discharge in the case of the 24-275X) while an open manual valve will constantly empty and refill based on the engine pressure to accusump pre-charge pressure ratio?

So, using an EPC, the accumulator will fill above 60PSI, and since it won't release until below 55PSI, it can fill a larger volume, and with a larger fill volume the initial discharge rate will be faster.

For example, with an EPC using a pre-charge of 10PSI and the engine hits 80PSI, the accumulator will fill and hold 2.63qt until discharge at 55PSI. Where as with an open manual valve, the useable volume in the accumulator with the same pre-charge is 2.45qt at 55PSI?

So the benefit to the EPC is more oil discharge at a faster rate when open?

I think that is one benefit. It only helps for less than 5 sec no matter what, if I remember my calculations correctly from several years ago. I also think it is how you view the system... a continuous extra surge volume or an emergency injection. I've seen race cars(PRO 3) with the manual Accusump so it's certainly a valid choice. I have the view that I want the engine oiling system to operate normally...unless it needs a boost, so I like the EPC model.

[bbnks2]

I went with the electronic valve for the convenience of not having to constantly open and close a valve.

I believe race cars often run the manual valves because they are less restrictive. The electronic valve reduces the ID of the line but it's a marginal difference.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by rac

i agree, my comments are really targeted at those chasing the perfect oil pressure after they have implemented the simple stuff. i would go one step further and say a simple baffle in the sump is also a no brainer, without going crazy on complex trap door and plumbing solutions. its the 80/20 rule, none of the solutions for a wet sump is a 100% solution until you switch to a dry sump.... i've seen people chase this mirage for years without ever being happy.



is this with or without the accumulator? if it is still happening with an accumulator and a basic sump baffle then i guess more time resources is warranted. i would add a pressure sensor to the accumulator and log it find out exactly how it is being depleted and go from there. ideally the accumulator should be controlled by a programmable valve to make best use of its volume.



i thought this might the case judging by some of the data i've seen posted. cant see it being a sensor issue, it must be logging frequency. i can log up to 1000hz, i guarantee i could pick up those dips if they were occurring at the place of the sensor. i havent tracked the car since having this set-up, maybe when i do the data will keep me awake at night.... lol.

These are dips without the accumulator. With the accumulator I don't ever see below 30psi I believe. I know it works and helps in autocross so I don't bother logging oil pressure anymore... not much else to do but enjoy the car until it blows up lol. I run 18x12 with 315s on them... I expect things to break.

and yes, MHD logging is fast but nowhere near as fast as the cars computers are operating. I believe the OBD port is a limitation and the number of channels you try to log at the same time through the OBD port. There is onyl so much bandwidth available through that means of communication.

[Cobra1956]

Thank you guys for this thread as I am slowly converting a recently purchased 135 to a track car and am installing an accumulator. I notice that someone asked about how to deal with oil changes?
From my previous experience I did not drain the unit when I did an oil change as my cars only saw track use and the oil gets changed multiple times a year. I did stumble upon this for those of us a little more ocd on the subject as I thought it was easy to do:

1. Remove the Accumulator tank from the car, remove the air valve core from the tank air
valve, open the manual valve on the other end.
2. Using air pressure, force the internal piston from the manual valve end to the gauge end.
3. Fill the Accumulator, two quarts for P/N 23900 / 23902, one quart for P/N: 23901 / 23903,
through the manual valve and then close the valve. Replace the air valve core.
4. Replace the Accumulator into the car and pressurize the unit to 100 psi through the air
valve.
5. Open the manual valve and allow the Accumulator to pre-oil the new engine before it
is fired up. Start the engine.
6. Shut down the engine with the manual valve open, allowing the Accumulator to empty into
the engine. When it is completely empty, raise the air pressure to 40 psi, and, after
approximately two minutes, bleed down the pressure to 6 psi.
7. Restart the engine, allow the Accumulator to refill, close the manual valve, and shut off the
engine. The Accumulator is now ready for normal service. By opening the manual valve
before the engine is started, and closing it before the engine is shut off, the engine will
always be pre-lubed before it is run.
MOROSO PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS, INC
80 CARTER DR • GUILFORD, CT 06437-2116
Phone: (203) 453-6571 • Fax: (203) 453-6906
For Technical Assistance, Call Moroso’s Tech L

[Sbbaker109]

Ive been tracking my N54 for about a year but just upgraded to much bigger wheels/tires and concerned about oil starvation. Ive read a ton about an accumulator and ran across this thread. Very interesting and knowledgable messages!

Anyway, I found this product while researching. It is g-force activated switch to activate the e-valve and “go-live” with the accumulator. Seems like a really good solution and interested in hearing from this community. Good idea?

https://ansixauto.com/accusump-elect...ve-controller/

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by Sbbaker109

Ive been tracking my N54 for about a year but just upgraded to much bigger wheels/tires and concerned about oil starvation. Ive read a ton about an accumulator and ran across this thread. Very interesting and knowledgable messages!

Anyway, I found this product while researching. It is g-force activated switch to activate the e-valve and “go-live” with the accumulator. Seems like a really good solution and interested in hearing from this community. Good idea?

https://ansixauto.com/accusump-elect...ve-controller/

My take is that:

1. I'd rather it activate on the actual parameter of concern - oil pressure, vice sensing g-forces and then staying on for 30 sec (BTW, Accusump 3 qt unit empties in about 3 seconds in my car).
2. Engine RPM's are typically high on the track and oil pressure also higher than the setpoint of your e-valve, if you pick that setpoint correctly. So their point on that is somewhat moot.
3. What is the setpoint for "spirited driving"? This would concern me.
4. Staying on for 30 sec...unnecessary and would add an additional 2.4 qts in my sump for no reason.

The only advantages of this are the "i forgot to activate my accusump" point and the preoiling point. I'll stick with my valve set at 55#.

[Sbbaker109]

Thanks for responding. Understood points 1, 2. Point 3 is good question: I assume the vendor could provide the g-force set point upon which it opens the e-valve.

Point 4 is a bit confusing - maybe I misunderstand how the accumulator works? If the g-switch activates for 30 seconds, doesn’t that just meant that the accumulator is moving based on the differential pressure between engine oil and air pressure inside the accumulator? It doesn’t necessarily mean that 2.4 qts of oil are dumped in your sump for no reason, unless you have zero engine oil pressure and in that case, wouldn’t you want the accumulator to fully dump? If braking and/or turning is done in 3 seconds, for instance, and your oil pressure dives to below the air pressure of the accumulator, then for sure it dumps, perhaps fully depending the air pressure set-up, but as soon as your engine pressure climbs back to normal (in my case, about 93psi and almost instantly when the g-force drops), then oil goes right back into accumulator - it doesn’t hang in your sump for 30 seconds. Of course, on the track we are constantly hitting that g-force threshold, so likely the g-switch is keeping the the accumulator active the entire time. On a race car equipped with a manual valve, doesn’t the valve stay open the entire time on track?

Of course, what you have works and definitely simple. What is your dry accumulator set-up air pressure? They say 7-10psi, are you in that range?

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Sbbaker109

Anyway, I found this product while researching. It is g-force activated switch to activate the e-valve and “go-live” with the accumulator. Seems like a really good solution and interested in hearing from this community. Good idea?

https://ansixauto.com/accusump-elect...ve-controller/

Terrible idea, invented by someone who has no idea how the electric valve works. Incidentally, the "electric valve" and the "EPC valve" are the same basic valve, but the EPC incorporates a pressure switch to control it. Reading Canton's data it is easy to miss this point.

When energized, the electric valve allows discharge but severely restricts recharging. It is natural to assume that the valve opens like a ball valve when energized allowing free flow in both directions, but this is not the case. The net effect is that an always energized electric valve is useless on track, because it does not allow the accumulator to recharge significantly between discharge events.

The figure that follows is logged accusump (air) pressure during charging with the valve energized (blue) and then de-energized (red). The charge rate difference is dramatic - about 1 psi/second energized and 17 psi/second de-energized.



In otherwords it will take a fully discharged accusump about a minute to recharge if the valve is energized, but only about 6 seconds when de-energized.

For this reason, the electric valve must be controlled by a pressure function to effectively recharge, and using a high value pressure switch will delay recharging (among other things).

I have done a deep dive into the accusump, involving instrumenting pressures at various points (internal air, internal oil, oil at valve, oil at engine), reverse engineering the electric valve function, looking at precharge pressures, looking at the effects of oil temperature on everything, etc. That is all part of a coming forum thread.

Nothing Canton writes about the electric/EPC valve function is incorrect, but it is very easy to misunderstand it due to erroneous assumptions. I did that, and is seems that most people do too.

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by Sbbaker109

Of course, what you have works and definitely simple. What is your dry accumulator set-up air pressure? They say 7-10psi, are you in that range?

Yes. 10#.

[Sbbaker109]

Interesting info about the valve behavior. I guess it also acts as a safety when the oil pickup is restored, ensuring the engine has oil priority over the accusump until a safe pressure is reached and the e-valve is de-energized. Then the accusump quickly refills - very cool.

So what pressure valve? My hot idle is approx 43 psi, with any revs it jumps to 90+. According to Canton, I should select the valve nearest to my idle pressure, but the other post mentions 55psi. Which is best?

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by Sbbaker109

Interesting info about the valve behavior. I guess it also acts as a safety when the oil pickup is restored, ensuring the engine has oil priority over the accusump until a safe pressure is reached and the e-valve is de-energized. Then the accusump quickly refills - very cool.

So what pressure valve? My hot idle is approx 43 psi, with any revs it jumps to 90+. According to Canton, I should select the valve nearest to my idle pressure, but the other post mentions 55psi. Which is best?

I don't think there is a "best". It is a decision based on your perception of risk and what you want to manage at the track. I had the same dilemma when I was purchasing my accusump. If you pick the 35-40#, it won't actuate at idle (so it can be enabled all the time) but won't start actuating until below even the lowest normal pressure. If you pick the 55-60# it will start actuating well before you get to any danger zone but you have to ensure you turn it off in the pits and turn it back on when you go on track or you will burn out the solenoid. I ended up picking 55-60#. Someone posted that the valve is actually adjustable (there's apparently a set screw), so you could play with that if you wanted to.

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

I have done a deep dive into the accusump, involving instrumenting pressures at various points (internal air, internal oil, oil at valve, oil at engine), reverse engineering the electric valve function, looking at precharge pressures, looking at the effects of oil temperature on everything, etc. That is all part of a coming forum thread.

[Excitement Intensifies]

[Dieselboy]

Adding from my build thread.

I T'd into the engine oil return line just after the external thermostat. I've seen conflicting information as to whether a one-way check valve is necessary or not. The concept of preventing reverse flow through the oil coolers makes sense, but fluid will take the path of least resistance and I assume it would flow into the engine return instead of fighting the pump to flow backwards. Mostly I don't want to redo the return line and spend $150+ on a quality flapper check valve if it's not really necessary. Plus, if that valve breaks or sticks, bad things will happen.

[scratchgolf135]

I'm on a mission to better automate mine. Currently have a 55psi EPC on a toggle switch which is fairly common. Toggle on when starting lap, toggle off before idle. I would love to automate power switch to the EPC so I had a thought. Considering a RPM-based output from the Motiv Reflex. Motiv output energized above maybe 1300 rpm. The considerations are we must capture all events where the sump could be needed, which includes heavy braking. Heavy braking, though, is going to be in gear where engine oil pressure remains above the set point of 55 psi unless an "event" occurs that necessitates the sump to dump oil.
Am I missing any other possibilities or possible missed "events" in this solution? The motiv wouldn't send power to the EPC at idle but would at anything above. Thoughts? In gear decel under normal conditions seems to be around 68psi so I shouldn't have any unnecessary activation of the accusump outside of actual "events" that require intervention. Trying to balance a solution where it's automated but doesn't dump at idle and doesn't dump during other normal conditions as well.

[scratchgolf135]

Originally Posted by scratchgolf135

I'm on a mission to better automate mine. Currently have a 55psi EPC on a toggle switch which is fairly common. Toggle on when starting lap, toggle off before idle. I would love to automate power switch to the EPC so I had a thought. Considering a RPM-based output from the Motiv Reflex. Motiv output energized above maybe 1300 rpm. The considerations are we must capture all events where the sump could be needed, which includes heavy braking. Heavy braking, though, is going to be in gear where engine oil pressure remains above the set point of 55 psi unless an "event" occurs that necessitates the sump to dump oil.
Am I missing any other possibilities or possible missed "events" in this solution? The motiv wouldn't send power to the EPC at idle but would at anything above. Thoughts? In gear decel under normal conditions seems to be around 68psi so I shouldn't have any unnecessary activation of the accusump outside of actual "events" that require intervention. Trying to balance a solution where it's automated but doesn't dump at idle and doesn't dump during other normal conditions as well.

As a followup, CarAbuser, who will be tuning for me, has confirmed that the Reflex can trigger output based on RPM so I can't think of a reason this wouldn't be an ideal setup. The reflex will energize the EPC above set rpm (1200 rpm maybe?) so this should capture not only on-throttle long sweepers but also the hard braking events that can tank oil pressure since I'll remain in gear during said braking and the rpms will remain above the set point.