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      11-12-2018, 12:00 PM   #1
CachacoF80
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F1: Verstappen vs. Ocon

Controversial weekend that reminded us of Senna/Irvine and other post race "fights".

Was Ocon right to unlap himself? Was he too aggressive? Was Verstappen too impatient and was it justified to push Ocon?
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      11-12-2018, 01:56 PM   #2
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Already under discussion in the Brazil F1 thread.
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      11-12-2018, 02:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CachacoF80 View Post
Controversial weekend that reminded us of Senna/Irvine and other post race "fights".

Was Ocon right to unlap himself? Was he too aggressive? Was Verstappen too impatient and was it justified to push Ocon?
*# 38 shows you the latest from the incident => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1553433&page=2
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      11-12-2018, 03:47 PM   #4
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Already under discussion in the Brazil F1 thread.
Thanks, what's the link?
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      11-12-2018, 03:48 PM   #5
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Just saw it, thanks for sharing
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      11-13-2018, 02:11 AM   #6
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All things considered, I think fault is 50/50. MV paid the pricce for his driving - and not giving Ocon enough space. MV does this all the time and this time, he lost.

MV crashed into SV in China and although SV wasn't leading, he was a WDC contender.

And as much as I'm into drivers showing some personality, I'm not really digging the tantrum that MV threw after the race.
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      11-13-2018, 03:41 AM   #7
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Ocon wanted to stop him i think.
VER is the new king of F1.
He is still 21.
New Schumi or Senna.
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      11-13-2018, 04:25 AM   #8
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brings back memories to the 2001 brazilian GP where a Verstappen was on the other end of the same crash.
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      11-15-2018, 08:50 PM   #9
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so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.
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      11-16-2018, 05:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.
This part should be in thew Lewis! thread. This is the stuff champions are made of.
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      11-16-2018, 08:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.
Fair analysis. Why is why, in the end, Max should've exercised more patience, instead of acting like Max, and then assaulting another driver.
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      11-16-2018, 08:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evren View Post
Ocon wanted to stop him i think.
VER is the new king of F1.
He is still 21.
New Schumi or Senna.
No.

1) He's been in F1 long enough that "being only 21" is not an excuse.
2) Unlike Schumi and Senna, Max had an F1 daddy, so he was groomed for this from birth.
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      11-16-2018, 10:25 AM   #13
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Regardless of how you feel, I found the following the best video the whole incident before and after, as seen by Ocon starting with his pit stop and both radio communication of Ocon and Verstappen:

https://streamable.com/fkpqj

As Ocon exits pits, he is shown blue flags with Hamilton behind. Ocon says on radio, blue flags are gone, he starts closing on Verstappen. He is told he can pass Verstappen if he wants.

Verstappen on radio says "I have this Force India behind me pushing."
"Understood," is the response from the RBR pit wall, "hes out there on fresh supers."

Then look at the closing speed of Ocon on Verstappen. No F1 driver on the grid is going to slam on the brakes with that kind of closing speed just because he is the leader. He went well past him (or at least even) so Max knew he would be on the inside of the next corner. Did he think Ocon was going to disappear or drive off track?

In hindsight, when Force India told Ocon he can pass Verstappen if he wants, it should have been stressed to make it clean, he is the leader.

And I think RBR should have have amended their statement "Understood, he's out there on fresh supers -- let him go, Hamilton still x seconds behind, you're not racing Ocon"
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      11-16-2018, 10:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoral View Post
Regardless of how you feel, I found the following the best video the whole incident before and after, as seen by Ocon starting with his pit stop and both radio communication of Ocon and Verstappen:

https://streamable.com/fkpqj

As Ocon exits pits, he is shown blue flags with Hamilton behind. Ocon says on radio, blue flags are gone, he starts closing on Verstappen. He is told he can pass Verstappen if he wants.

Verstappen on radio says "I have this Force India behind me pushing."
"Understood," is the response from the RBR pit wall, "hes out there on fresh supers."

Then look at the closing speed of Ocon on Verstappen. No F1 driver on the grid is going to slam on the brakes with that kind of closing speed just because he is the leader. He went well past him (or at least even) so Max knew he would be on the inside of the next corner. Did he think Ocon was going to disappear or drive off track?

In hindsight, when Force India told Ocon he can pass Verstappen if he wants, it should have been stressed to make it clean, he is the leader.

And I think RBR should have have amended their statement "Understood, he's out there on fresh supers -- let him go, Hamilton still x seconds behind, you're not racing Ocon"
Thanks for this post and link, this clears up everything. I am now even more of the opinion that Max was at fault, and that he should have let Ocon by. He new that Ocon was on better tyres, and he obviously knew he was not racing him.

From Ocon's seat, I can't see that he did anything wrong. He went around the outside of T1, and at T2 he was on the inside, with absolutely nowhere to go. I would have done the same in his situation.
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      11-16-2018, 05:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoral View Post
Regardless of how you feel, I found the following the best video the whole incident before and after, as seen by Ocon starting with his pit stop and both radio communication of Ocon and Verstappen:

https://streamable.com/fkpqj

As Ocon exits pits, he is shown blue flags with Hamilton behind. Ocon says on radio, blue flags are gone, he starts closing on Verstappen. He is told he can pass Verstappen if he wants.

Verstappen on radio says "I have this Force India behind me pushing."
"Understood," is the response from the RBR pit wall, "he’s out there on fresh supers."

Then look at the closing speed of Ocon on Verstappen. No F1 driver on the grid is going to slam on the brakes with that kind of closing speed just because he is the leader. He went well past him (or at least even) so Max knew he would be on the inside of the next corner. Did he think Ocon was going to disappear or drive off track?

In hindsight, when Force India told Ocon he can pass Verstappen if he wants, it should have been stressed to make it clean, he is the leader.

And I think RBR should have have amended their statement "Understood, he's out there on fresh supers -- let him go, Hamilton still x seconds behind, you're not racing Ocon"
hey jk, thanks for posting that video, pretty much settles it for me. Max shot himself in the foot.
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      11-16-2018, 05:50 PM   #16
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Ocon chose a point to unlap Verstappen where Verstappen had to deviate from the ideal driving line. Also he still wasnt past Verstappen when they collided (Verstappens front wheel was in front of Ocon's one).
Imho thats not allowed.
If he wanted to pass Verstappen he should have done it on another spot. When they drove up to the straight there was maybe 6-10 car lenghts in between so Ocon only just passed Verstappen at the end. If Ocon wanted to pass Verstappen without hindering him, he should have taken care of that distance at the beginning and be 2-3 car lengths behind Verstappen when they drove onto the straight.
So pretty poor judgement from Ocon if you ask me.
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      11-16-2018, 07:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.
Nice ! But MAX is actually *Belgian* my friend
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      11-16-2018, 07:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Ocon chose a point to unlap Verstappen where Verstappen had to deviate from the ideal driving line. Also he still wasnt past Verstappen when they collided (Verstappens front wheel was in front of Ocon's one).
Imho thats not allowed.
If he wanted to pass Verstappen he should have done it on another spot. When they drove up to the straight there was maybe 6-10 car lenghts in between so Ocon only just passed Verstappen at the end. If Ocon wanted to pass Verstappen without hindering him, he should have taken care of that distance at the beginning and be 2-3 car lengths behind Verstappen when they drove onto the straight.
So pretty poor judgement from Ocon if you ask me.
Ocon is a f@cking idiot ! Ocon drove at that moment for the 15th place. While the trashed the leader in the race .
FIA has to wake up...
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      11-16-2018, 07:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
hey jk, thanks for posting that video, pretty much settles it for me. Max shot himself in the foot.
Negative ! Ocon shot Max from the victory...
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      11-16-2018, 07:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.
Nice ! But MAX is actually *Belgian* my friend
maybe so, but Jos is still Dutch
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      11-16-2018, 07:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
maybe so, but Jos is still Dutch
Not maybe . It's for sure Max is Belgian =>https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2015/0...ian-not-dutch/

Max ID is Belgian (Belgian passport)
Max driver license is Belgian .
Max is born in Belgium.
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      11-16-2018, 08:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiseuille View Post
maybe so, but Jos is still Dutch
Not maybe . It's for sure Max is Belgian =>https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2015/0...ian-not-dutch/

Max ID is Belgian (Belgian passport)
Max driver license is Belgian .
Max is born in Belgium.
ok ok ok
Max is Belgian
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