Walked over by a 335D!!!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Thats insane. Can you imagine it now that they are upping the horsepower now? It's up to 306hp now if I'm not mistaken.

WOW! With that kind of HP and that killer torque, I bet that one will fly nicely.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ktdw

At that speed, I would probably try it in 4th gear. Though, it appears that you have a minor tune (340 bhp), so the above result not surprising at all.

3rd would have killed it.
The 135i does nearly 80mph in 2nd

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by mtla4

Torque does not win races. My old torqueless japanese cars used to spank comparable v6-v8 cars all day long. Torque is good for (lazy drivers)
I'd take a torqueless E90 M3 over a torquey E90 335I with JB3
Driving an automatic car with gobs of torque require no skills. All you need to do is press the gas you can't mess up.
Even with a manual tranny you can't really fall out of the powerband.
Bottom line is you can buy a fast car but can't buy driving skills at the local dealership

Thank you. Here's someone who understands power band.
But, torque is what an engine produces, HP is mathematically derived from torque. A diesel produces torque with minimal revs, but has a limited power band, thus, it doesn't produce very much high rpm torque. It's not a high revving engine so it has a much more limited and less flexible power band. Yeah, it'll pull like a locomotive, but an engine like the 135i has is better for a race, unless of course your Audi and can build an amazing diesel that does produce high rpm torque giving an awesome power band.

Diesels are great for mpg and for daily driving as the power band it has is awesome for the relatively slow daily road. Great pull but not for very long.

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by mtla4

Torque does not win races. My old torqueless japanese cars used to spank comparable v6-v8 cars all day long. Torque is good for (lazy drivers)
I'd take a torqueless E90 M3 over a torquey E90 335I with JB3
Driving an automatic car with gobs of torque require no skills. All you need to do is press the gas you can't mess up.
Even with a manual tranny you can't really fall out of the powerband.
Bottom line is you can buy a fast car but can't buy driving skills at the local dealership

Wasn't it Shelby who said

"Torque wins races, horse power sells cars?"

[BMW-driver]

RU55, does your graph shows rearwheel, or flywheel (engine) power?

[Joey_T]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

RU55, does your graph shows rearwheel, or flywheel (engine) power?

I would say that it has to be rwhp not at the cranck... Other stock dynos show approximately the same at wheels (around 280 whp).

[BMW-driver]

The graph says: "Engine power". So that's at the cranck according to the graph. If it is at the cranck, the numbers are way to optimistic! Because a very good modified 335d can accheive 350bhp (like Wettenhauer f.i.).

If those numbers are true rwhp, than it is impossible that a chipped 335d will run out this chipped 135i.

So, there is something wrong with the numbers (not realistic) or that 335d has an amazing tune (400bhp +). But that seems to be impossible with a chip on a 335d

Here a youtube movie of a - on paper - 350BHP/710Nm 535D in a battle against a Evo M3 325 bhp E36. I know that EVO BMW. It is true 325bhp, not 1 hp more. And that EVO M3 is even faster with half torque of a wonderful modded 535d. I ran against that EVO with a standard(!) 135i. My 135i won that battle.

[ru55]

Hi acs1.35i, I really don’t know sorry, they just drove my car onto the dyno and did the test. Though I do believe that the chart info will be @ the wheel data…

[dxb335d]

UK 135i's with a tune are doing low 13's... so are 335d's..

Ive run 13.0 flat in mine,.. there aint much in it.

[Add1ct]

wow that's cool, what are you running in your 335d?

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Add1ct

wow that's cool, what are you running in your 335d?

Approx 345HP. 530ibs (DMS Automotive re-map), Thing is it launches really well.. Launching at full torque.

went on a dyno with 5 other 335d's and came out on top the same day. 25ibs more torque then the next which had same HP, other 3 all made less HP and torque.

[Add1ct]

god that sounds sooo awesome, I want a diesel coupe over here badly

[ktdw]

Originally Posted by RPM90

3rd would have killed it.
The 135i does nearly 80mph in 2nd

yeah, you might be right. I was debating between 3rd and 4th....still seems a little strange to drop three gears to pass (cruising in 6th). Though if you were accelerating to 120, you would save the 3-4 gear change....I wonder what net difference would be.

starting at 75 mph in 4th, you are at about 4000K rpm, right? That's not a bad place to be

[dannemare]

Originally Posted by ktdw

starting at 75 mph in 4th, you are at about 4000K rpm, right? That's not a bad place to be

I really depends on your torque curve and gear ratios.

Most modern cars (with a standard factory map, at least) are usually mapped in a way such that you should always go for (near) redline in every gear for maximum acceleration. Hence, if putting the 135i in 3rd gear at 75 mph means you still are still 1.000 rpm or more away from redline, you should probably go for 3rd instead of 4th (unless you're a slooow shifter). Again, it's all about your torque curve and gear ratios.

Take my Corsa OPC, for example. From looking at a dyno graph of a standard Corsa OPC identical to mine (ideally I should, of course, get my own car dynoed for the purpose, but I haven't really bothered at the moment) I have calculated the transmission output torque (transmission output torque is what matters) for every gear at 500 RPM intervals. See the below calculations:

Corsa OPC redline = 6500 RPM



Let's start out by looking at 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear. From this it's pretty clear that tranny output torque at redline is always higher in a lower gear than the next one (at any given RPM). Hence, run it to redline for maximum acceleration.

Moving on to 4th gear we now see that tranny output torque is actually lower at 6500 RPM than in the next (5th) gear at 2500 RPM. Does this mean we should upshift to 5th sooner than redline? No, because shifting at, say, 6000 RPM instead (which has higher torque than any RPM in the next gear) will drop us back to circa 5000 RPM and only a maximum of 151 foot-pound of torque (dropping all the way to 128 at redline) whereas going for redline in 4th yields 155 strong ones. The scenario for 5th -> 6th is similar.

Best regards,
Frederik Dannemare

[///M ichael]

What ever!

[dannemare]

Originally Posted by ///M ichael

What ever!

Just trying to help as it seems to me that almost nobody understands the subject.

[ktdw]

Originally Posted by dannemare

Just trying to help as it seems to me that almost nobody understands the subject.

A while back I downloaded a spreadsheet similar to what you posted above. For a tuned 135i, I think I recall that the results indicated the optimal shiftpoints to be around 6300 RPM.

[BMW-driver]

dannemere, indeed his has to do with all the things you are trying to tell us. But stil, a 357 rearwheel horsepower 135i can never loose from a 345bhp (max) crank horsepower. Never. So there is something wrong with the messured numbers of the 135i. The dynorun is not good.

I have ran several times against heavy modded 335d's/535d's. And yes, those cars are very strong and idiot fast for a diesel. But the powerband is still very small of those diesel engines, and the max torque is very early in the rev's. Everytime I ran over them, and walked away with the ACS1. Over and over again.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by dannemare

Just trying to help as it seems to me that almost nobody understands the subject.

Thank you for the very informative post.

[mtla4]

Originally Posted by FORCED AIR

Wasn't it Shelby who said

"Torque wins races, horse power sells cars?"

I'll take an F1 or even a DTM car before a Nascar. My favorite car to date was my RSX-S you had to master in order to drive it fast. You couldn't miss a shift and had to shift at the right moment. The 135 is easy to drive from 2000 rpm all the way up to 5500 it goes. It's like driving a mustang ...I can be in sixth gear without downshifting and it will still go...not too challenging IMO. Still a great car for daily grind but it does not match the E46 M3, E9X M3 or M Coupe or even S2K in term of driving pleasure. I guess it's a matter of taste but I feel like I'm driving a muscle car. If the car would have had the old S54 engine along with an LSD then it would be a keeper.

[BMW-driver]

^ I agree

[dannemare]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

I have ran several times against heavy modded 335d's/535d's.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to debate whether the x35d is faster or slower than the x35i. The petrol is a faster accelerating car (stock vs stock and with equal drivers). I was only trying to explain to ktdw (and others) why 4th might not be the optimal gear to be in at the speed mentioned.

With the table I posted anybody can input their own engine torque numbers and gear ratios to calculate the transmission output torque for each gear (in X RPM intervals). The transmission acts as a 'torque multiplier' and the transmission output torque is what really matters for a car's acceleration.

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

But the powerband is still very small of those diesel engines, and the max torque is very early in the rev's.

Spot on. This is exactly the "problem" with diesel engines. They need to upshift much, much sooner because they run out of revs fast and when they upshift their gear ratio naturally goes down as they engage the next gear. Hence, the diesel driver loses the advantage of the higher gear ratio in lower gears faster.

So even though a comparable turbo diesel is likely to have more torque than a comparable turbo petrol comparing each gear (ie. diesel 1st gear vs petrol 1st gear, diesel 2nd gear vs petrol 2nd gear, etc), the diesel will likely need to upshift to a "weaker" gear way sooner than the petrol.

Thus, at some point during an acceleration test, the diesel will battle with a weaker 2nd gear against the petrol's stronger 1st gear. Same thing (gear ratio disadvantage to the diesel) happens when the diesel is forced to engage 3rd gear, as the petrol will still be blasting away in 2nd for a few secs. Etc etc.

Best regards,
Frederik Dannemare