HPDE with 135 or get a track car?

[135gofast]

Hi, I'm looking for advice/opions about HPDE'ing my 135 or buying another car just for HPDE events (probably a Miata, circa 1999-2003).

My primary concern with HPDE'ing the 135 is that it's an expensive car to drive uninsured on the track. I've been purchasing HPDE insurance for events this year @ $220/event. If insuring the 135 for $220/event gives me true peace of mind and protection from total loss, it would take some 25-50 events before the insurance cost was more than buying another car. I believe the insurance deductible is 10% (so about a $3,000 deductible)

vs

just buying another car for $5-10k

I realize the 135 is faster than a Miata by a lot :-) My lap times as an inexperienced driver in the 135 are already faster than the best Miata laptimes in ST4 on the track i've run, so lap times are not really a concern. I think it would be just as much fun HPDE'ing a Miata as the 135.

The question is more about:
- learning to drive better,
- risking less $$,
- still being very safe on the track, and
- perhaps justifying the continued use of my 135 on the track.

Thanks

[Black Sheep]

get a mini cooper

[135gofast]

Fwd? Huh?

[Groundpilot]

If you get old miata it will need to be moded for track use. I wanted to go that way before i got my 135i , but when i found out how much money has to be spent to make miata competitive on the track i decided to forget about miata. Sure it can be fun even in stock form, but for me personally its not fun at all when most hpde cars blow by and pull away. Just my 2 cents

[vanbmw]

Here's my 2 cents. I was a semi professional racer car driver for 20 years (semi pro means I got paid $$$ but not enough to live on!) and raced everything from a Honda civic up to a Toyota Atlantic race car. I still actively help out at private track events (around 20 this year) and get to drive lots of poeple's track cars.

First off...having an expensive, very fast car for the track is a waste to me. They would be ton's of fun but what if you have an "off-road" adventure or get bumped. Weight is a track car's enemy and everyday drivers need lots of that heavy stuff.

I recommend buying a track car. Any rear drive car minus some weight and with some minor mods is fun. Plus you can learn to maintain it yourself to save $$$. If you blow it up on Sunday...then you still have a daily driver for work Monday. plus, if you blow it up, you just casually repair it when you have time and $$$. Here's a few I have seen that are fun and cheap:

I helped a friend set up a Mustang 5.0 (1989 if I recal). He bought it for dirt, and ripped everything out...dash board, rear seats, carpet/soundproofing, and even the door panels. With new brakes, a set of track tires and some mods it is fairly fast and lots of FUN! You really learn about how to handle a car with the live rear axle. He got used parts online and some at autowreckers. He got a sweet set of shocks and springs from a crashed mustang. Plus when he needs a new parts they are cheap and easy to find. Also it is an easy car to work on.

I also have driven a friends 1980 Porsche 911 carrera. It had all sorts of weight removed and new suspension all around. The engine needed to be rebuilt (suprising easy...I helped with some of the engine work) as the car was high milage when he purchased. That car is very fast for the power and lots of fun. Parts are more expensive but there are lots of online stores. Also a very rewarding rack car but a challenge to master.

I also drove a RX7 turbo II...remember that old thing...that was fun. The guy bought it and put in a new rotor and replaced the apex seals. With new suspension and the removal of some wieght it was also fun. He cranked up the turbo boost and it (aside from BAD turbo lag) is fast. He pulls that motor apart every winter and replaces the apex seal and anything else it needs. He claims it has been very cheap to maintain (not many parts on a rotary) and he loves the car.

I also drove a stripped miata that was set up for autocross. Lots of fun, really tight handling and decent power. The big power cars fly by that thing on the straightaway but the Miata was all over them in the corners. You could get serious power with a turbo but then you get $$$. Lots of fun

Good luck!

[scottn2retro]

Get the chear track if you have the space to keep one.

If you track the 135i, you may need to upgrade the brakes (the huge Brembo sourced kit sold with the car is little more than a selling gimmick).

[BrokenVert]

How do you guys feel about an s2k as a track car? Strip it out and put a cage in it and it's good to go, no?

[135gofast]

I owned an 02 S2000 and drove it for 2 years before spinning it out on an on-ramp to the highway one cool autumn evening. A quick search on the 'net shows that the AP1 was "daringly neutral", yeah, prone to spinning. The AP2 (2005+) is better in that regard (reworked rear spring rates and staggered tire setup, iirc), but 05+ S2000 are pretty expensive ($15k+).

I love the look of the S2000, the shifter, the clutch, the handling (except the spinning part) and even the engine sounds, in fact, i almost bought an 05 last winter. But if you're worried about balling up a car on the track, an early S2000 is probably not a great choice. Checkout www.s2ki.com, that's the place to find out about tracking an S2k.

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

How do you guys feel about an s2k as a track car? Strip it out and put a cage in it and it's good to go, no?

[135gofast]

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

If you get old miata it will need to be moded for track use. I wanted to go that way before i got my 135i , but when i found out how much money has to be spent to make miata competitive on the track i decided to forget about miata. Sure it can be fun even in stock form, but for me personally its not fun at all when most hpde cars blow by and pull away. Just my 2 cents

This is one of my greatest fears, being the slowest car on the track! But, at the events i've been to, and where i've earned my solo-license, a Miata with basic mods (coilovers, exhaust, tires, roll bar/roll cage, etc) would be in the ST4 class, which is basically ALL Miatas. So if i were the slowest car, i would be the slowest driver. And that my friend, can only be remedied by some seat time.

So, are you tracking your 135? The mods will add up pretty fast on the 135, too.

[vanbmw]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

How do you guys feel about an s2k as a track car? Strip it out and put a cage in it and it's good to go, no?

Fun car on the track. Nice combo of handling, power and transmission. Plus you'll be running in the upper rev's most of the time so the lack of lowend torque won't be an issue. I wouldn't be concerned about the early S2K's. The problems described by 135gofast while shouldn't be an issue for a track car. Chances are you will change the shocks/springs/roll bars plus you'll be running R-compound tires. If it is a "track" car it will require some setting up and you can modify the handling as you like.
As far as cost...that motor was low volume (for a Honda) and it had some pretty trick parts in it. I would think (totally a guess) that parts might be expensive and in short supply.

[135gofast]

Originally Posted by vanbmw

I recommend buying a track car. Any rear drive car minus some weight and with some minor mods is fun. Plus you can learn to maintain it yourself to save $$$. If you blow it up on Sunday...then you still have a daily driver for work Monday. plus, if you blow it up, you just casually repair it when you have time and $$$. Here's a few I have seen that are fun and cheap:


I also drove a RX7 turbo II...remember that old thing...that was fun. The guy bought it and put in a new rotor and replaced the apex seals. With new suspension and the removal of some wieght it was also fun. He cranked up the turbo boost and it (aside from BAD turbo lag) is fast. He pulls that motor apart every winter and replaces the apex seal and anything else it needs. He claims it has been very cheap to maintain (not many parts on a rotary) and he loves the car.
...
I also drove a stripped miata that was set up for autocross. Lots of fun, really tight handling and decent power. The big power cars fly by that thing on the straightaway but the Miata was all over them in the corners. You could get serious power with a turbo but then you get $$$. Lots of fun

Good luck!

thanks for the ideas vanbmw. Sounds like you have alot of experience out there. Are you tracking your 135?

The cars i have considered and could be swayed to, but everything people say about them indicates that these will end up being less reliable than a miata:
- RX7 and RX8 (rotary issues)
- S2000 (brake rotors crack)
- anything fwd, just not as much fun
- AWD, just not as much fun
- Z4 (might as well stick with the 1er)
- Pontiac Solstice (GXP or base) (pretty heavy, and still pretty expensive)

I'm not a mechanic. But, am interested, like you said, in learning on a fairly simple car to do the basics, starting with brake pads, suspension, exhaust, and evetually rotors, fuel pumps, timing belts, etc.

Who knows what's going to happen, i;ll probably mull this over for a few months before making a decision.

btw, I think by your logic, a Porsche 944 turbo should be on that list too.

[Tochenzo]

I've been in the a similar boat...trying to decide if it is worth tracking my car. But then I realize how badly I want to mod this car and what a waste it would be to never drive the car to its true potential. Since I do not plan on racing professionally and only doing a few track events and autocross per year, I have decided to continue modding and enjoying the 135i to its potential and look for a cheaper daily driver in the next few months. Maybe an e30 or some awd. Getting a second car primarily for the track would be great fun, but nothing beats my 135i right now and maybe in a few years down the road, the 135i will be old enough to be my "cheap track car" and I will have a newer toy to play with as a daily driver.

[pixelblue]

I am slowly modding my car to be a dedicated track toy 3-4 years down the road. by then god willing I will buy a sensible DD

[135gofast]

do you hpde with or without insurance?

[vanbmw]

Originally Posted by 135gofast

thanks for the ideas vanbmw. Sounds like you have alot of experience out there. Are you tracking your 135?

The cars i have considered and could be swayed to, but everything people say about them indicates that these will end up being less reliable than a miata:
- RX7 and RX8 (rotary issues)
- S2000 (brake rotors crack)
- anything fwd, just not as much fun
- AWD, just not as much fun
- Z4 (might as well stick with the 1er)
- Pontiac Solstice (GXP or base) (pretty heavy, and still pretty expensive)

I'm not a mechanic. But, am interested, like you said, in learning on a fairly simple car to do the basics, starting with brake pads, suspension, exhaust, and evetually rotors, fuel pumps, timing belts, etc.

Who knows what's going to happen, i;ll probably mull this over for a few months before making a decision.

btw, I think by your logic, a Porsche 944 turbo should be on that list too.

No track days for my 135..it is my daily driver. I do lots of lapping in other peoples cars at track days. Some of it is just showing an owner the correct line...some of it is showing someone what there car can really do. I also got to do some "set-up" days on some track cars. They put all sorts of go fast parts in but need someone to help calibrate it all and set it up correctly.
I drove a retired Rothman's turbo cup car (944 turbo) years ago around the track in Portland. That is one fast car and fun for a lapping a track.

You mentioned an RX7. I have driven several twin turbo RX-7's on the track. That was one awesome track car right out of the box. Plenty of power, great handling (light weight) and nice interior for driving. They get super fast with mods however, I have seen lots of those break down on the track and have heard of several $$$ expensive repairs. Price out a new set of turbo's (a common problem) and you'll see what I mean. A really good ride but could be expensive.

Don't write off a S2K because the brake rotors crack. Tracking a car is really hard on brakes. Chances are you will either upgrade your brakes or else you will be replacing rotors fairly often.

I personaly think a track car that you can work on is great. The one extreme is pulling your own motor and doing an engine rebuilt. Not many poeple would (or should) do that. However, you need to be doing your own oil changes, brakes, exhaust and suspension work. All of those are easy enough to do and will save you money. When you are in a no hurry and you have some assistance (a mechanical friend or the internet!) you can slowly do most car work. My friend that has the RX7 turbo II had never touched a rotary engine when he bought his. He only had some minor mechanical training (high school only). He got a shop manual for the car and put it on the work bench and started pullling it apart. Now he can rip that thing apart in no time.

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by 135gofast

do you hpde with or without insurance?

no track insurance, I have been living dangerously. I am not worried about me screwing up as much as I am worried someone else screwing up and hitting me. the scca hpde sessions are a lot of fun but everyone drives their cheapo track cars like crazy and it's a point of concern to me. last time there was three accidents on the track but fortunately it was on the other side of track from where I was.

[Lubo]

No one has mentioned E36 M3 yet. In my opinion this would be a good beginner car. Strip the car out, do some maintenance work upgraded the front radiator and brakes and you have a sweet track car. Not to mention if you ever want to mod further there is a huge aftermarket for these cars.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by 135gofast

This is one of my greatest fears, being the slowest car on the track! But, at the events i've been to, and where i've earned my solo-license, a Miata with basic mods (coilovers, exhaust, tires, roll bar/roll cage, etc) would be in the ST4 class, which is basically ALL Miatas. So if i were the slowest car, i would be the slowest driver. And that my friend, can only be remedied by some seat time.

So, are you tracking your 135? The mods will add up pretty fast on the 135, too.

Yes. I am fotunate enough to have e92 m3 as a daily driver(still may take it to the track once a year)and i got 2011 135i as a second daily driver and a track car(about 7 track days a year). Took it to the track 4 times so far. First time the car was stock and was one of the fastest in the intermidiate run group. But the biggest problem as we all know is a heavy understeer and body roll. So i decided to mod. suspension, brakes, weels/tires. Took it to the track again and it felt like i was driving a supercar. The car was that good. With stock engine i was one of the fastest in the advanced group. You are right about mods adding up pretty fast, but if you can afford to mod your car, than no need to look for anything else. You already have a great track car my friend.

[135gofast]

Well, you are indeed blessed. The e92 is awesome. My wife is very interested in the "M3 family sedan" version, lol.

Ok, you guys have sort of convinced me of two things:
1) the 135 is a great track car. I've not been happy with the suspension since buying it and now with the camber plate, mine needs to have a suspension upgrade to reach it's full potential. I think AST 4100s are coming asap. i'll plan on autox'ing them before tracking them.

2) an S2k, a car that i love, is back in the picture, an older one, like the 02 i used to own and some mods to make it a little more understeer biased. but now the track car can wait until i explore a couple more mods on the 135. .

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

Yes. I am fotunate enough to have e92 m3 as a daily driver(still may take it to the track once a year)and i got 2011 135i as a second daily driver and a track car(about 7 track days a year). Took it to the track 4 times so far. First time the car was stock and was one of the fastest in the intermidiate run group. But the biggest problem as we all know is a heavy understeer and body roll. So i decided to mod. suspension, brakes, weels/tires. Took it to the track again and it felt like i was driving a supercar. The car was that good. With stock engine i was one of the fastest in the advanced group. You are right about mods adding up pretty fast, but if you can afford to mod your car, than no need to look for anything else. You already have a great track car my friend.

[bjo]

Originally Posted by Lubo

No one has mentioned E36 M3 yet. In my opinion this would be a good beginner car. Strip the car out, do some maintenance work upgraded the front radiator and brakes and you have a sweet track car. Not to mention if you ever want to mod further there is a huge aftermarket for these cars.

I have a 95M3 as my autox/DE car. The main reasons why I don't want to get rid of it are:
1. I can do maintenance on it and its not too difficult.
2. Parts are decently priced
3. Platform is well sorted with lots of aftermarket support.

I keep toying with the idea of getting another fun car (1M, Z4M,etc) but the e36 m3 is just too much fun and economical...

[GaryS]

I want you all to know this thread cost me $300. I registered for my first HPDE and then read this thread. So now I'm insured. Thanks for the good information, everyone.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Tochenzo

I've been in the a similar boat...trying to decide if it is worth tracking my car. But then I realize how badly I want to mod this car and what a waste it would be to never drive the car to its true potential.

Your sig says National Capital Chapter. The October 16-17 Drivers School at Summit Point is $195 each day, and Lockton HPDE insurance for the event was $300 for my car, which looks just like your car.