Ideal street / auto-x alignment specs

[str8shot]

I had posted this once before in the track subforum.

Pulled the trigger and have 225/40/18 - 255/35/18 Z2's on their way.

I'm looking for an ideal alignment for mostly street driving, with the occasional auto-x.

I've got AST coilovers with Vorschlag camber plates.

Any ideas?

What's the stock alignment specs?

[jafo1701]

If it's mostly a street car I wouldn't go over kill with the camber. However if you track or autocross a lot I'd say max that camber out.

-1.5 to camber up front with Zero Toe
-2 camber in the rear with .20 total toe in.
I have Dinan fix plates with M3 bits gets me -2.2 camber up front. The rest of the settings I run as above. My car is a weekend driver with 4 or 5 Auto Xs a year with 3-5 track weekends.

[Kgolf31]

Run as much camber as you want....as long as you run 0 toe up front you'll be fine on tire wear. I have -2.3 up front.

I personally run -1/4th total toe in the rear, and it has seemed to calm down the rear alot.

This is on my Z4 though, so YMMV

[str8shot]

Here's what I ended up doing.

-2.5 camber front, 0 toe

-2.2 camber rear (as much equal camber as I could get out of them), 1/16 toe in.

I really, really hope it doesn't chew through these tires...can't afford $1200 every summer. Be nice to get two summers out of them (20k).

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by str8shot

Here's what I ended up doing.

-2.5 camber front, 0 toe

-2.2 camber rear (as much equal camber as I could get out of them), 1/16 toe in.

I really, really hope it doesn't chew through these tires...can't afford $1200 every summer. Be nice to get two summers out of them (20k).

You'll be fine.

I just flipped my RS3s this year from too much outer shoulder wear...not inner. I ran around 10 or so autocrosses with 1 track day and I had no sign of inner tire wear. I could of went probably half a season of autocross before flipping this year, but had some down time.


You might see that you'll need to go a little bit more toe in on the rear next year if your rear end gets a bit too loose. However you could probably reduce it with some rebound adjustments.

[timhatimay]

You should have very little problem with wear or street-ability with around -2* in the front, assuming you have little or no toe. I run -2* all year long. My winter tires do see a bit of inside wear, but its not too bad. In the summer my wear is pretty even (auto-x and more aggressive driving even it out, and usually get a little more wear on the outside). You will love the Direzza's. I'm still on Z1's, so I've been wanting to get the new tire. On the rear I'm a little under -2* with very little toe, and I've never had a problem. Thats actually not that far from the stock setting. With some good tires and a good alignment, the car will feel great! -2.5* is pretty high for mostly street, and for winter time (if you don't adjust the camber) I would anticipate you may get some uneven wear. It may not be too exaggerated, but it will be noticeable.

If you are driving aggressively you might get two summers out of the Z2's, but I wouldn't count on it. They are a pretty soft tire with limited wear. In past summers when I auto-xed quite a bit, I barely made it through the summer. They will get much noisier and a little slippery in the rain after they are worn. Direzza Z2's shouldn't be $1200 though, should be more like $900?

Good luck,

Tim

[Katkarot]

Great thread and info guys! Just in time as I need an alignment done in coming weeks after my suspension settles.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Run as much camber as you want....as long as you run 0 toe up front you'll be fine on tire wear. I have -2.3 up front.

I personally run -1/4th total toe in the rear, and it has seemed to calm down the rear alot.

This is on my Z4 though, so YMMV

You run negative toe in the rear? Does that not make it squirly as hell? And what is exactly is -1/4th? -1/4", -1/4 deg?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

You run negative toe in the rear? Does that not make it squirly as hell? And what is exactly is -1/4th? -1/4", -1/4 deg?

Negative toe is toe in, positive toe is toe out.

It kinda sounds odd, because you would think negative would translate to out, like it does with camber.


-1/4th is a -1/4", -1/8" inch on each side

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Negative toe is toe in, positive toe is toe out.

It kinda sounds odd, because you would think negative would translate to out, like it does with camber.


-1/4th is a -1/4", -1/8" inch on each side

Actually, that is backwards. - toe is toe out.

Best way to remember which is which:

If you are walking up behind a woman and grabbing her around the waist, and your arms go out, that is a bad thing and negative.

If you walk up behind her and your arms go in, that is a good thing, and positive. Very, very positive.

My wife has fabulous positive toe.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Actually, that is backwards. - toe is toe out.

Best way to remember which is which:

If you are walking up behind a woman and grabbing her around the waist, and your arms go out, that is a bad thing and negative.

If you walk up behind her and your arms go in, that is a good thing, and positive. Very, very positive.

That's my mistake. I've always listed my toe is negative and listed toe in next to it. Good thing they thought I was crazy and made it toe in, not out...


I would of quickly realized if there was toe-out, as the couple previous autocrosses I would of been looping it. Not to mention it wouldn't be too hard to see the rear tires pointing out...not in

[CJ421]

Originally Posted by str8shot

Here's what I ended up doing.

-2.5 camber front, 0 toe

-2.2 camber rear (as much equal camber as I could get out of them), 1/16 toe in.

I really, really hope it doesn't chew through these tires...can't afford $1200 every summer. Be nice to get two summers out of them (20k).

My alignment specs are more or less identical - it's a great setup for both street and high-performance driving.
Agreed that zero toe is the key to minimal wear up front.

You could try a little toe-out up front for more turn-in response, if the car isn't responding as you like.

[pj.rodriguez]

Why zero toe? Doesn't that wear tires on acceleration? Toe will shoot out.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by pj.rodriguez

Why zero toe? Doesn't that wear tires on acceleration? Toe will shoot out.

You're doing yourself a disservice by not going 0 toe on the front.

Toe doesn't change under load (unless we are talking about S2000 rear suspension...which we are not).

Our suspension does not change toe under load.

[pj.rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

You're doing yourself a disservice by not going 0 toe on the front.

Toe doesn't change under load (unless we are talking about S2000 rear suspension...which we are not).

Our suspension does not change toe under load.

hmph. I've gotten some misleading information then... People have been telling me to go 1/16" toe in on the front end due to acel... So zero toe is definitely the way to go then?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by pj.rodriguez

hmph. I've gotten some misleading information then... People have been telling me to go 1/16" toe in on the front end due to acel... So zero toe is definitely the way to go then?

Yup, basically.

If anything was going to happen to toe, it would have to be from a negative effect from camber.

For example, if you were to gain toe out...you would have to increase camber while under acceleration. Simply that just doesn't make sense, because under acceleration, your front end rises while the rear end squats. So if anything, the front wheels will lose some camber (very minor and probably can be ignored) and this would cause some toe-in, not toe out.


The dynamics at toe would change would be if you are under load during a turn. Camber is slightly reduced so you'll actually gain some toe-in during this phase. Sway bars help reduce camber variances under load.

[pj.rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Yup, basically.

If anything was going to happen to toe, it would have to be from a negative effect from camber.

For example, if you were to gain toe out...you would have to increase camber while under acceleration. Simply that just doesn't make sense, because under acceleration, your front end rises while the rear end squats. So if anything, the front wheels will lose some camber (very minor and probably can be ignored) and this would cause some toe-in, not toe out.


The dynamics at toe would change would be if you are under load during a turn. Camber is slightly reduced so you'll actually gain some toe-in during this phase. Sway bars help reduce camber variances under load.

Right on. Thanks for the tips because in the spring, I was seriously gonna get an alignment after upgrading some suspension bits and ask them to do some toe in. 1/32 or 1/16 or something like that. Everything you say makes perfect sense.

[Quisclean]

I swapped out my 205 55 16s for 225 50 16s and after replacing my front tie rods I went in for an alignment and noticed that even though the rear end was within factory spec the rear tires happen to be heavy on the camber wear 😳