Hood liner or sound insulation

[KNS]

Originally Posted by tock172

The thermal hood pads you're referencing from the cars of yesteryear do absolutely nothing in the way of fire suppression.

Yeah - I know. Nothing has changed.

It's a neat Gee-Whiz concept you've got there but I'm not buying it. Lets just agree to disagree.

Dack,

The 335s come with hood pads.

[tock172]

Originally Posted by KNS

Yeah - I know. Nothing has changed.

Incorrect. The hood liner material is now completely different and is secured to the hood using plastic expanding rivet fasteners as opposed to spray adhesive. The fasteners employ a friction lock between the small pin and the collar it slides into. Apply a little heat, and they come apart with ease.

Originally Posted by KNS

It's a neat Gee-Whiz concept you've got there but I'm not buying it. Lets just agree to disagree.

So after all that, we're essentially back to, "It won't work because I don't think it will work." I feel like I'm debating an evangelical creationist.

[KNS]

^^ Nothing has changed - what I meant was it's role hasn't changed. It's a sound and thermal pad.

You don't know the plastic rivet as well as you think you do. I've installed a replacement on my 128. It's an expanding rivet (like those found all over the car) but rather than a sliding push pin the pin is threaded (screwed in with a phillips) to expand the rivet. Unless your'e using a different style...

I really don't feel like going back and forth, like I said we can just agree to disagree. If you can come up with some literature on it, BMW or otherwise - great.

And I don't believe in that creationist crap...

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by tock172

Incorrect. The hood liner material is now completely different and is secured to the hood using plastic expanding rivet fasteners as opposed to spray adhesive. The fasteners employ a friction lock between the small pin and the collar it slides into. Apply a little heat, and they come apart with ease.



So after all that, we're essentially back to, "It won't work because I don't think it will work." I feel like I'm debating an evangelical creationist.

HA. Sure, just "apply a little heat" and they come right apart. Try that yourself.

The idea that the blanket allows occupants more time to escape doesn't make sense either. That function is served by the metal in the front of the cabin. It gives you plenty of time to get out in any scenario other than being trapped in the car, in which case the hood blanket falling on the engine is not going to greatly change things.

As far as our "magical man in the sky" thinking, the reason I say your premise is bs is I've seen an engine fire and put out a lot of fires. It's very difficult to put out a fire burning on gas / oil / plastic and the thought that one of these blankets will even begin to affect things is...cute.

I only wish to contribute my take on what is or isn't reasonable. Show me some evidence and I'll immediately reverse course and admit you are correct, but as of now it doesn't add up.

[tock172]

Here you go: http://www.mvfri.org/Contracts/Final...Insulation.pdf

Refer to page 14.

[KNS]

Well why didn't you simply post that from the start. I still believe the primary function is for sound and heat insulation. The plastic fasteners fire fighting function seems secondary and less important since BMW did away with the pad. I did read recently that all new BMWs will have the pad (most do already) for heat retention to reduce emissions on engine starts.

The lab tests sound a bit inconclusive...

Given that fire resistant under hood insulating panels were identified amongst
the small sample of vehicles examined, the possibility of the panels acting as a
fire blanket and smothering and engine fire is feasible. However, the
effectiveness of such a system can not be determined strictly from the component
tests that were performed. Ultimately, the typical temperatures of an engine
compartment fire need to be lower than the flaming temperature of the
insulation and higher than the melting temperature for the mounting clips.
Simulated engine compartment fires are needed to determine the actual
effectiveness of a fire resistive panel at smothering a fire.

Thanks for (finally) posting in any case.

[tock172]

Regardless of what the test says, in my original post, I was referring to the design of the liner and the fasteners. I always said it's for NVH, but it does, indeed double as a fire suppression device.

Just for reference, the BMW X5's expanding rivets release at roughly 262 degree Celsius. See attached image.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by tock172

Regardless of what the test says, in my original post, I was referring to the design of the liner and the fasteners. I always said it's for NVH, but it does, indeed double as a fire suppression device.

Actually, in your first post you said this: "I'm surprised to learn it has such an effect on noise. I believe the primary purpose is for it to act as a fire retardant that can fall onto the engine and supress (sic)/retard a fire."

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...94&postcount=2

Or: "While it may in fact do something in the way of NVH reduction, there is no way any automaker is going to put a piece of cloth in close proximity to the engine without it having flame retardant properties."

Of course not.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=11

Or: "Please direct me to where I said the hood insulation would successfully extinguish an engine fire. Here's a hint: I never said that. I never once claimed the pad would extinguish an engine fire."

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=35

"Well, I wouldn't go that far. Any kind of hood insulation is flame retardant and designed to fall onto and smother and (sic) engine fire."

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...69&postcount=4

smother: "to suppress (a fire) by excluding oxygen"

suppress: "to end or stop (something) by force"

suppress = extinguish = put out

"When you have extinguished the fire, carefully check to be sure that it is out, and stays out. Sometimes, what you don’t do when suppressing fires is as important as what you should do."

"Don’t try to suppress a large fire. If you can’t put out the fire in 5 seconds or less, the fire it (sic) too large. Get out."

"Suppressing fires in smoke-filled areas requires equipment other than a portable fire extinguisher."

https://emilms.fema.gov/is909/assets...ngoutfires.pdf

But perhaps I'm being pedantic again.

[tock172]

Thanks for going through the trouble of consolidating most of what I said into a neat package. I still stand by the point made previously. It's designed to fall onto the engine if there's a fire.

If you truly desire to nitpick my my use of the word suppress, I offer the following explanation: I was operating on the premise that the word suppress is defined as any of the following, all of which are found in the Oxford English Dictionary. Pay attention to the first, and more specifically the 3rd bullet points, neither of which offer a specific denotation that can be construed as a total elimination or in this case, extinguishment.



So, after going through all of that nonsense, I remain adamant in my assertion.

[The Wind Breezes]

This is what the paper actually says in regard to your claim, and I quote:

"Simulated engine compartment fires are needed to determine the actual effectiveness of a fire resistive panel at smothering a fire."

They don't offer these tests. Please, try again. I also just noticed that your avatar is a dude with a hit of acid on his tongue. Could we please have a little ego death?

[tock172]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

This is what the paper actually says in regard to your claim, and I quote:

"Simulated engine compartment fires are needed to determine the actual effectiveness of a fire resistive panel at smothering a fire."

They don't offer these tests. Please, try again. I also just noticed that your avatar is a dude with a hit of acid on his tongue. Could we please have a little ego death?

Give me a break and don't try to patronize me. What fucking difference does it actually make? You get the idea: the fasteners release with heat, the pad falls onto the engine. Need more proof? Refer to the first page. Don't be ridiculous. What is the liner going to do when it drops onto a burning engine? Make the fire more intense? I doubt it.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by tock172

Thanks for going through the trouble of consolidating most of what I said into a neat package. I still stand by the point made previously. It's designed to fall onto the engine if there's a fire.

If you truly desire to nitpick my my use of the word suppress, I offer the following explanation: I was operating on the premise that the word suppress is defined as any of the following, all of which are found in the Oxford English Dictionary. Pay attention to the first, and more specifically the 3rd bullet points, neither of which offer a specific denotation that can be construed as a total elimination or in this case, extinguishment.



So, after going through all of that nonsense, I remain adamant in my assertion.

OK, we can ignore that even in the definition you posted the primary definition above all the bullet points is "Forcibly put and end to". When the National Park Service sends firefighters out to suppress a wildfire, they're not attempting to "prevent or inhibit" the fire, they're trying to "forcibly put and end to" it. When a race car's fire suppression system is activated, it's not trying to "restrain" the fire, it's trying to "forcibly put and end to" it.

The introduction in your posted link says this:

"Research conducted for the Motor Vehicle Fire Research Institute to investigate the use of fire safety technologies, in 2003 model year vehicles, identified the use of under hood insulation as a potential fire preventative feature [Ref. 1]. It is speculated that heat from an under hood fire would melt the mounting hardware supporting the under hood insulation allowing it to descend onto the engine and smother the fire."

The researchers didn't know if underhood insulation would work as a fire suppressant, investigated the possibility and then wrote a paper on it. Therefore, hood liners were not "designed to fall onto the engine if there's a fire." Based on that paper, they just might given enough heat. Even their conclusion was inconclusive. "However, the effectiveness of such a system can not be determined strictly from the component tests that were performed." "Simulated engine compartment fires are needed to determine the actual effectiveness of a fire resistive panel at smothering a fire."

Any fire suppression benefits of the underhood insulation is a happy coincidence. Only 5 of the hood liners in the test didn't catch fire, and although many of those that did went out relatively quickly, one burned for over 7 minutes.

[KNS]

The way I interpreted the lab results were, that for the fasteners to work (dropping the hood pad) the temperature needs to reach a very high degree. Yet once that high temperature has been reached the effectiveness of the hood pad has been exceeded.

[Stock4Evr]

And all I wanted to know is does it suppress engine sound?

[Stock4Evr]

Does anyone know which models have the insulation installed?

[135ivert]

Anyone know the P/N for the clips? It appears that we need 5, is that correct?

Also, the cynical Me has every confidence that BMW eliminated this for cost reasons. They probably figure that, regardless of their status as a luxury car maker, they can cut corners on the lower models of their range.

[tock172]

Originally Posted by Suprgnat

OK, we can ignore that even in the definition you posted the primary definition above all the bullet points is "Forcibly put and end to". When the National Park Service sends firefighters out to suppress a wildfire, they're not attempting to "prevent or inhibit" the fire, they're trying to "forcibly put and end to" it. When a race car's fire suppression system is activated, it's not trying to "restrain" the fire, it's trying to "forcibly put and end to" it.

The introduction in your posted link says this:

"Research conducted for the Motor Vehicle Fire Research Institute to investigate the use of fire safety technologies, in 2003 model year vehicles, identified the use of under hood insulation as a potential fire preventative feature [Ref. 1]. It is speculated that heat from an under hood fire would melt the mounting hardware supporting the under hood insulation allowing it to descend onto the engine and smother the fire."

The researchers didn't know if underhood insulation would work as a fire suppressant, investigated the possibility and then wrote a paper on it. Therefore, hood liners were not "designed to fall onto the engine if there's a fire." Based on that paper, they just might given enough heat. Even their conclusion was inconclusive. "However, the effectiveness of such a system can not be determined strictly from the component tests that were performed." "Simulated engine compartment fires are needed to determine the actual effectiveness of a fire resistive panel at smothering a fire."

Any fire suppression benefits of the underhood insulation is a happy coincidence. Only 5 of the hood liners in the test didn't catch fire, and although many of those that did went out relatively quickly, one burned for over 7 minutes.

Originally Posted by KNS

The way I interpreted the lab results were, that for the fasteners to work (dropping the hood pad) the temperature needs to reach a very high degree. Yet once that high temperature has been reached the effectiveness of the hood pad has been exceeded.

Suprgnat, you can try to dance around the topic and belittle me over the interpretation of the definition of the word suppress all you want. It has essentially no bearing on this discussion. The denotation of the word, especially in contemporary vernacular, clearly has some variation.

Regardless of of all that, at this point, what difference does any of that make? The system works exactly as I described it, 3 pages prior to this. It is by no means a happy coincidence that vehicles from BMW, Ford, Toyota, Chevrolet, Jeep, Dodge, Mercedes and Kia all employ a design that allows the hood insulation to drop onto the engine in the event of a fire. There's no more room for debate here. This discussion was never about the effectiveness of the pad itself. Rather, it was about how several people simply did not believe a word I said about the insulation being designed to fall onto the engine in the event of a fire. If the pads were not designed to fall onto an engine during a fire, then the design would remain consistent with the foam that is fastened to the hood using traditional adhesive found on older vehicles as opposed to the plastic fasteners used on modern cars.

[Stock4Evr]

Originally Posted by 135ivert

Anyone know the P/N for the clips? It appears that we need 5, is that correct?

Also, the cynical Me has every confidence that BMW eliminated this for cost reasons. They probably figure that, regardless of their status as a luxury car maker, they can cut corners on the lower models of their range.

I agree with you on cost reasons for not installing the insulation. I also think that it might have something to do with the sound of the engine and Turbo, which most like to hear. I say this because so many replace the air filter to one that makes more noise and offers increased performance.

I put normal tires on and enjoy the much lower road noise. I want the engine noise to be reduced too so I will install this and hopefully will work.

[tock172]

Originally Posted by 135ivert

Anyone know the P/N for the clips? It appears that we need 5, is that correct?

Yes, you need 5x 51481915964.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by tock172

Suprgnat, you can try to dance around the topic and belittle me over the interpretation of the definition of the word suppress all you want. It has essentially no bearing on this discussion. The denotation of the word, especially in contemporary vernacular, clearly has some variation.

Regardless of of all that, at this point, what difference does any of that make? The system works exactly as I described it, 3 pages prior to this. It is by no means a happy coincidence that vehicles from BMW, Ford, Toyota, Chevrolet, Jeep, Dodge, Mercedes and Kia all employ a design that allows the hood insulation to drop onto the engine in the event of a fire. There's no more room for debate here. This discussion was never about the effectiveness of the pad itself. Rather, it was about how several people simply did not believe a word I said about the insulation being designed to fall onto the engine in the event of a fire. If the pads were not designed to fall onto an engine during a fire, then the design would remain consistent with the foam that is fastened to the hood using traditional adhesive found on older vehicles as opposed to the plastic fasteners used on modern cars.

Tock,

I'm not trying to belittle you at all. I'm saying you're wrong.

The pads were not "designed to fall onto the engine in the event of a fire." I'm not saying that the pads don't fall onto the engine in the event of a fire, I'm simply saying that they were not designed to do so. The manufacturers use a few tabs around the periphery of the pads and some plastic clips because it's CHEAPER than the "traditional" method.

YOU made this a discussion about the effectiveness of the pads when you asserted that "I believe the primary purpose is for it to act as a fire retardant that can fall onto the engine and supress/retard a fire." The hood liner from the BMW X5 in the paper you linked to burned for almost 3 minutes and released heat at a rate of up to 314.32 kW/m^2 and its little plastic doohickies required 262°C (504°F) to melt sufficiently for the pad to fall. That's not a safety feature and it was never intended to be one.

[consider it done]

The pad does not have enough room, between the top of the engine and pad , to drop and pull the seven tabs from the hood. The rivets will melt , pad will droop in the middle , and the 7 outer tabs will remain "hooked" in place. The pad will not "fall".

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by tock172

Give me a break and don't try to patronize me. What fucking difference does it actually make?

Don't con everyone in this thread by purporting to post evidence supporting what you're saying when the actual evidence is missing from your citation.

Also, a little ego death, please? Why so angry?