Handling as good as an M3

[BMW135pls]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

My 1series now has solid subframe bushings and handles equally to an m3 with the same mods- it essentially is a lighter m3 at this point.

What sort of camber are you running these days? I watched the video with Matt Farah, and it looked really good.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

I've always thought the car was pretty stable at high speed in a straight line, there's too much rear end movement than I would like over uneven bumps though. Maybe I'm just used to crap cars and have no M3 to reference.

When my car was stock I thought it was great at highway speeds. Felt pretty planted IMO.

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I have had different coilovers set ups. Coilovers alone worn make a 135i feel like a 1m or m3.

I attribute a lot to the rear subframe bushings and steering racks.

My thoughts are if you add good coilovers on top of all the M3 components, you will get a better handling car than a 1M or M3. But if you add that same coilover to the M, then the M car will again come out on top.

in the end and from my experience with both setups you are better off with a $5k coilover/spring/camber plate setup than spending $5k on the M3 parts and just a decent coilover. The high end dampers are just amazing in what they can do. From my bro's 335i which has all the M3 parts, camber plates, TCK monoball kit, and JRZs, to my car which has just M3 RSFB, camber plates, and JRZs, the difference is absolutely minimal. It really is all in the damper

[lowbudgethero]

what you really need is a donor m3

[Top Gon]

Originally Posted by chris82

My advice is to put more money into your coilovers. That is such an important part of how your car feels. Try something high end like a JRZ, MCS, KW Competition, etc., and skip out on some of the other parts. It will literally transform the car. A single click of compression on a high end damper can make your car feel more planted and responsive than any control arm upgrade will. It's astonishing really. That's my advice if you want the car to feel equal or better than an M3.

However there are 2 problems though that are just part of the 1 series

a. tires. we can barely fit a 245-255 up front, M3s have that stock!
b. wheelbase. nothing we can to do about that, a longer car is just more stable.

Good luck to you op!

the short wheelbase is what makes it fun in the canyons though

[chris82]

Originally Posted by Basheezy

the short wheelbase is what makes it fun in the canyons though

I agree! I haven't driven an M3 to compare to, but compared to an equally modified 3 series, the 1 is more fun to drive, just a more tossable car

[Top Gon]

Originally Posted by chris82

I agree! I haven't driven an M3 to compare to, but compared to an equally modified 3 series, the 1 is more fun to drive, just a more tossable car

My brother has a 335 with similar mods. Not only can I feel the shorter wheel base but also the weight difference

[chris82]

Originally Posted by Basheezy

My brother has a 335 with similar mods. Not only can I feel the shorter wheel base but also the weight difference

Yea, that extra length really adds some stability

[bippie999]

thanks, i put the rear bar on to save labor, but now my steering loses control at WOT, should have skipped the rear bar.

[BMW135pls]

Originally Posted by bippie999

thanks, i put the rear bar on to save labor, but now my steering loses control at WOT, should have skipped the rear bar.

Does steering lose control, or does the rear end lose traction and begin steering the car from the ass? Do you have the upgrade front bar as well?

Just curious really. Everything needs to be in balance. Stiffer front bar will make steering more likely to lose control. Stiffer rear bar will make the ass end more likely to lose traction and begin steering the car, but when this happens, the car will still be controllable through the steering column, since the front tires still have traction.

[bippie999]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. At first with my power mods, the rear end was squirrelly, then I upgraded to a Wavetrac LSD, and that seemed to handle that, but when I get the power on, now my car feels like it is losing control in the front end. Like it is too light. Doesn't seem like oversteer, just like losing control of the steering. TC Kline just told me it may be something in the rear alignment, specifically incorrect toe-in, and he DID NOT recommend the rear sway bar, so now what do I do?

[BMW135pls]

Originally Posted by bippie999

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. At first with my power mods, the rear end was squirrelly, then I upgraded to a Wavetrac LSD, and that seemed to handle that, but when I get the power on, now my car feels like it is losing control in the front end. Like it is too light. Doesn't seem like oversteer, just like losing control of the steering. TC Kline just told me it may be something in the rear alignment, specifically incorrect toe-in, and he DID NOT recommend the rear sway bar, so now what do I do?

It looks like you are on the stock springs and dampers all around? At high speeds and under high torque, the stock suspension is a bit underdamped for guys who push higher than stock power, especially on non-runflat tires. This leads to a floating feeling, where the loss of control can't really be attributed to either set of tires, it's like the whole car wants to veer one or the other direction. And obviously steering control is limited while suspension parts are in motion. Upgrading your suspension and damping rates will cut down on this.

If it is an alignment issue, then it could be that you don't have enough toe-in for the amount of power you are pushing. At high speeds, road friction will push your front tires outward, which will cause a steering pull situation if one tires traction is lesser or greater than the other tires traction for even a fraction of a second. If this were the case, you would feel the wheel pulling your hands left or right. Same for the rear, but the rear tires are also spread further apart since they are the drive tires and affected by torque, so a bit more toe-in relative to the front tires is recommended. Too much toe-in will cause the same sort of steering pull as too much toe-out, but the difference is, toe-in makes your car more stable at high speeds/high power levels, toe-out does the opposite.

[Solo_M_Tech]

In all reality, if you really want your 1er to handle like an M3, trade it in for one. You can modify a 135i to handle as good or better than a stock M3, but what make an M3 great, is the sum of it's parts. The issue with the 135i is it was never designed to compete with the M3 on the track. So it was made softer, and more compliant. Once you have replaced EVERYTHING on the 135i with quality aftermarket and OE ///M parts, you can get the car on par with the M3's laptimes, but it will never feel as stable as the M3. Just the nature of the beast. Im not saying the 135i can't be made to pace an M3 for track times, but if you modded the M3 equally with the 135i, part for part ( As much as you possibly could) the M3 would still be a better track car. It was engineered to be so.

[BMW135pls]

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

In all reality, if you really want your 1er to handle like an M3, trade it in for one. You can modify a 135i to handle as good or better than a stock M3, but what make an M3 great, is the sum of it's parts. The issue with the 135i is it was never designed to compete with the M3 on the track. So it was made softer, and more compliant. Once you have replaced EVERYTHING on the 135i with quality aftermarket and OE ///M parts, you can get the car on par with the M3's laptimes, but it will never feel as stable as the M3. Just the nature of the beast. Im not saying the 135i can't be made to pace an M3 for track times, but if you modded the M3 equally with the 135i, part for part ( As much as you possibly could) the M3 would still be a better track car. It was engineered to be so.

I don't really get what you are saying so much. If what you say is true that the 135i with the right modifications can possibly outperform the M3, why would someone still prefer the M3? Are you saying that the built 135i, even though it is outperforming an M3, wouldn't have THAT EXACT driving feel, and so someone looking for an M3 driving feel would prefer an M3?

[John_01]

After fixing deficiencies in 135i suspension, it will absolutely rival the M3 on the track. On tighter tracks the smaller size and shorter wheelbase of the 135i give it an advantage over the M3. The 135i has a broader power curve than the M3, so I think that's also an advantage in working with the available gearing for track use. The 135i has more potential for power upgrade, so it can be extremely capable if you overcome some limitations in engine cooling and braking capability.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by BMW135pls

I don't really get what you are saying so much. If what you say is true that the 135i with the right modifications can possibly outperform the M3, why would someone still prefer the M3? Are you saying that the built 135i, even though it is outperforming an M3, wouldn't have THAT EXACT driving feel, and so someone looking for an M3 driving feel would prefer an M3?

I am saying mod for mod, the M3 will always outperform the 135i. It's a better chassis by design. Talk to any professional driver and they will back this claim.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by bippie999

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. At first with my power mods, the rear end was squirrelly, then I upgraded to a Wavetrac LSD, and that seemed to handle that, but when I get the power on, now my car feels like it is losing control in the front end. Like it is too light. Doesn't seem like oversteer, just like losing control of the steering. TC Kline just told me it may be something in the rear alignment, specifically incorrect toe-in, and he DID NOT recommend the rear sway bar, so now what do I do?

Do you have adjustable dampers? If so, there are a few adjustments you can make to improve your situation

[bippie999]

I originally put on TC Kline double adjustable coil-overs with camber plates, 2 years ago-they really helped, especially when the camber was adjusted properly. I also have non-runflat tires, Michelin Pilot SS which are very slippery when cold. I'm not absolutely sure that the problem isn't the rear end causing the loss of control, especially with the upgraded rear sway bar, but I am going to tweak my alignment and make sure I have enough rear Toe in (is that negative or positive?) Dialing back the rebound also seemed to help.

Originally Posted by BMW135pls

It looks like you are on the stock springs and dampers all around? At high speeds and under high torque, the stock suspension is a bit underdamped for guys who push higher than stock power, especially on non-runflat tires. This leads to a floating feeling, where the loss of control can't really be attributed to either set of tires, it's like the whole car wants to veer one or the other direction. And obviously steering control is limited while suspension parts are in motion. Upgrading your suspension and damping rates will cut down on this.

If it is an alignment issue, then it could be that you don't have enough toe-in for the amount of power you are pushing. At high speeds, road friction will push your front tires outward, which will cause a steering pull situation if one tires traction is lesser or greater than the other tires traction for even a fraction of a second. If this were the case, you would feel the wheel pulling your hands left or right. Same for the rear, but the rear tires are also spread further apart since they are the drive tires and affected by torque, so a bit more toe-in relative to the front tires is recommended. Too much toe-in will cause the same sort of steering pull as too much toe-out, but the difference is, toe-in makes your car more stable at high speeds/high power levels, toe-out does the opposite.

[bippie999]

Originally Posted by chris82

Do you have adjustable dampers? If so, there are a few adjustments you can make to improve your situation

Yes, I have TC Kline double adjustable dampers, but someone may have them lowered too much. I will have the damper settings checked as well as the alignment.

[bippie999]

Originally Posted by chris82

Do you have adjustable dampers? If so, there are a few adjustments you can make to improve your situation

What adjustments would you recommend?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by bippie999

I originally put on TC Kline double adjustable coil-overs with camber plates, 2 years ago-they really helped, especially when the camber was adjusted properly. I also have non-runflat tires, Michelin Pilot SS which are very slippery when cold. I'm not absolutely sure that the problem isn't the rear end causing the loss of control, especially with the upgraded rear sway bar, but I am going to tweak my alignment and make sure I have enough rear Toe in (is that negative or positive?) Dialing back the rebound also seemed to help.

To think of toe, you have to think of walking up behind a woman and grabbing her waist.

If your arms go out, that is bad, or negative. (Toe out)

If your arms go in, that is positive. (Toe in)

I like positive toe in the rear.

[bippie999]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

To think of toe, you have to think of walking up behind a woman and grabbing her waist.

If your arms go out, that is bad, or negative. (Toe out)

If your arms go in, that is positive. (Toe in)

I like positive toe in the rear.

That's a Great way to remember it, thanks!

[chris82]

Originally Posted by bippie999

What adjustments would you recommend?

I would increase the compression at all 4 corners by a click and see if it helps. If it does, then keep increasing it click by click until you're happy with it. Undo the adjustment if it makes no difference