E82: Coupe or Sedan

[Esteban]

This question was brought up in another thread, so I thought I'd start a poll. Please cast your vote!

[Soterios]

I think, regardless of the original definitions, most people use the term coupe for two doors and sedans for four doors. I feel like that simplification makes life easier.

I say it's a coupe.

[swunder]

I didn't even want to read the other thread because it was already way too long for the question.

2 doors = coupe
4 doors = sedan

Thats the way its been as long as I've even known the terms and I don't care if BMW is calling their pointless 4 door even numbered series cars as "Gran Coupes".

[duder13]

Originally Posted by swunder

I didn't even want to read the other thread because it was already way too long for the question.

2 doors = coupe
4 doors = sedan

Thats the way its been as long as I've even known the terms and I don't care if BMW is calling their pointless 4 door even numbered series cars as "Gran Coupes".

That certainly wasn't always the case. The 2-door 2002, E21 and E30 were all considered sports sedans. The E36 2-door was the first in that lineage to be called a coupe.

BMW calls the E82 a coupe, so it's a coupe, but, since the E82 meets the traditional sedan requirements below, I voted sedan.

- 3-box design w/trunk
- b pillar that supports the roof (E82's is hidden with frameless windows, but it exists.)
- roofline less steep than a coupe for headroom (E82 roof still rises after front passenger, creating relatively tall greenhouse.)
- two rows of seats
- rear interior room more than 33 cubic ft. (E82 has 37 cubic ft.)

I contend that, like the E21 320i S, the E82 is "high performance driving machine cleverly disguised as a practical family sedan." I bought the E82, because it reminded me of the 2002, which was also a sports sedan.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by duder13

I contend that, like the E21 320i S, the E82 is "high performance driving machine cleverly disguised as a practical family sedan." I bought the 2002, because it reminded me of the 2002, which was also a sports sedan.

Here we go again.

How many modern (say 2005+) 2-door cars are called a sedan these days?

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Here we go again.

How many modern (say 2005+) 2-door cars are called a sedan these days?

He's not wrong though. It's just like the "Tomatos are a veggie" thing. Like...we know that it's a fruit (I think? Hell I don't know anymore), but it lives in veggieland.

I think the non technical definition is fine for 99% use cases, so I'll go with it.

No one really cares if someone brings out a "veggie platter" and there are tomatoes on it except that one dillweed; "Well actually...."

[Esteban]

They were comparing the M235i to the 2002 as well when it was being introduced.

Does that make the M235i a sedan?

[low135]

By definition, the term coupe has always been related to it's roofline. When you take a sedan, keep the roofline, remove the rear doors and put new fixed quarters in, you still have a sedan roofline, but with two doors. This is why you now also have "4 door coupes" as they've kept the same or similar roofline but added two doors. Whatever other made up qualifications you want to throw out there don't matter. The roofline is what matters. The E82 is a coupe

[duder13]

Originally Posted by low135

By definition, the term coupe has always been related to it's roofline. When you take a sedan, keep the roofline, remove the rear doors and put new fixed quarters in, you still have a sedan roofline, but with two doors. This is why you now also have "4 door coupes" as they've kept the same or similar roofline but added two doors. Whatever other made up qualifications you want to throw out there don't matter. The roofline is what matters. The E82 is a coupe

If the roofline matters, which I agree it does, then you’re saying the E82 is a sedan. It has a bulbous, sedan profiled roofline that keeps rising after the driver. The E82 has more rear headroom than the E92.

[duder13]

Originally Posted by Esteban

They were comparing the M235i to the 2002 as well when it was being introduced.

Does that make the M235i a sedan?

No, but the roofline probably does make the M235i a sedan, although it isn’t quite as bulbous as the E82s, so I think it’s more debatable. The E82 has nearly 2” more headroom in back, and the roofline of the E82 is pretty unique among modern 2-door cars.

[duder13]

Originally Posted by Soterios

No one really cares if someone brings out a "veggie platter" and there are tomatoes on it except that one dillweed; "Well actually...."

Yeah, but I’m guessing people do care on vegetable enthusiast forums.

[low135]

Originally Posted by duder13

If the roofline matters, which I agree it does, then you’re saying the E82 is a sedan. It has a bulbous, sedan profiled roofline that keeps rising after the driver. The E82 has more rear headroom than the E92.

I'm not saying it's a sedan at all actually, quite the opposite. Please don't attempt putting words in my mouth. This roofline is nothing like a sedan. Look at what could be the B pillar back. That's what matters here

[low135]

The E82 wasn't a four door optioned car that happened to have the same roofline in the coupe. That's the biggest thing differentiating it between the 2002 in this discussion.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by duder13

No, but the roofline probably does make the M235i a sedan...

[duder13]

Originally Posted by low135

I'm not saying it's a sedan at all actually, quite the opposite. Please don't attempt putting words in my mouth. This roofline is nothing like a sedan. Look at what could be the B pillar back. That's what matters here

That's exactly what I'm saying. The roof doesn't drastically slope back like just about any other modern coupe I can think of (even compared to the 2 series.)

That's an interesting theory about the 2002 also having a four door option, but BMW also called the E21 a sedan, and there was only a two-door E21 option.

[dusty.brown]

If you have a middle seat (third seatbelt) in the rear, you have a sedan. If you have no middle seat, you have a coupe.

If you have captains chairs in the back, you have a land yacht.

[duder13]

Originally Posted by dusty.brown

If you have a middle seat (third seatbelt) in the rear, you have a sedan. If you have no middle seat, you have a coupe.

If you have captains chairs in the back, you have a land yacht.

Ohh, that's a good one. Interesting. I don't think it quite holds up, though, unless you consider the 5-seat E46 M3 to be a sedan. Also, there are sedans, like the Saab 9000 Aero, that only have two seats in back.

[tock172]

In my opinion, I suppose you could say it's both. Here's why:

When looking at the dictionary definition of the word sedan, which I'll quote below, you'll notice that the first non-archaic explanation specifically encompasses both two and four doors in the description.

Originally Posted by Oxford New English American Dictionary

Sedan; (chiefly North American) an enclosed automobile for four or more people, having two or four doors.

While coupe, on the other hand, is much more specific.

Originally Posted by Oxford New English American Dictionary

Coupe; a car with a fixed roof and two doors.

With all of this in mind, and taking into account the vast array of two-door sedan models that have been available throughout history from a variety of manufacturers both foreign and domestic, if I were absolutely forced to classify the E82 1 Series as a coupe or sedan, I'd say the following; Within the E87 1 Series lineup, which first came to market as a five-door hatchback, the E82 is most certainly a coupe. However, in the grander scheme of things, because of its underpinnings, platform origin, proportional design and pillars, I would posit that it could also be classified as a two-door sedan, especially within the context of its manufacturer, who has long since embraced, and by some accounts created, the sport sedan segment, with 2002, which was clearly a two-door sedan.

Some other examples of officially branded two-door sedans come from 1950's through late 1970's American offerings, many of which could be had in Sport Sedan, or Club Sedan form, which meant a swooped hardtop and two doors. Many who aren't well versed with automotive history also tend to be unaware that up until the late 1950's, two-door station wagons were the volume seller, as opposed to the exceedingly more practical four-door design that would come to dominate in the following decades.

More relevant to this specific discussion would also be the Datsun 510, which was sold in two- or four-door sedan form, in addition to also being available as a two-door coupe and five-door station wagon.

Much of the confusion about modern day four-door coupes, like the Mercedes CLS, or BMW Gran Coupes, can also be understood when looking at history. In the past, numerous manufacturers also offered 2+2 models, which were two-door bodied cars conventionally equipped with spacious, grand-touring inspired interiors with full-width seats in the rear. A good example of this would be Ferrari.

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by duder13

- 3-box design w/trunk
- b pillar that supports the roof (E82's is hidden with frameless windows, but it exists.)
- roofline less steep than a coupe for headroom (E82 roof still rises after front passenger, creating relatively tall greenhouse.)
- two rows of seats
- rear interior room more than 33 cubic ft. (E82 has 37 cubic ft.)

I contend that, like the E21 320i S, the E82 is "high performance driving machine cleverly disguised as a practical family sedan." I bought the E82, because it reminded me of the 2002, which was also a sports sedan.

Where are you getting that SAE definition? I've been googling and I see it stated but no reference to the actual source.

Where are you getting the interior number for the E82?

[duder13]

Originally Posted by Gangplank

Where are you getting that SAE definition? I've been googling and I see it stated but no reference to the actual source.

Where are you getting the interior number for the E82?

Yeah, the SAE J1100 standard for coupes (33 cu ft or less in rear) is referenced in a lot of books and articles, but I don't have the actual source material.

Here is the Car and Driver 135i specs sheet that lists SAE rear interior volume as 37 cu ft. Of course, this sheet also calls the car a 2-door coupe, so...

Since we're getting super nerdy, I found this more esoteric reference to the H30 (seat height) of coupes vs. sedans. It labels coupe seat height as 190mm-230mm, and sedan seat height as 230mm-300mm. So, I measured my (power) seat height in the lowest position...and it's about 232mm. Maybe E82s with manual seats are coupes, and E82s with the slightly taller power seats are sedans?? lol

https://books.google.com/books?id=AN...0coupe&f=false

[duder13]

Just for fun, here's a really quick a dirty mockup of what a 4-door 135i would look like. I don't think the tall roof would need to change at all to make a 4-door, which is one of the main reasons why I lean towards this car actually being a sedan, despite being labeled a coupe. Just move the b-pillar forward a little to match with the smaller front door, and there's a 4-door sedan:

[Esteban]

duder13's gone and turned our coupe into a sedan. Nice work!

PS - If I wanted a 4-door sedan I would've bought one.

Edit: I did!