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      03-04-2018, 04:35 PM   #23
John_01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
Will most certainly be running R comps. Does a BBK negate the requirement for ducting?
Its a good question. If your car is close to stock power, the BBK may be enough to run longer sessions of hot laps. Sorry I don't know the actual answer to your question.
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      03-04-2018, 05:14 PM   #24
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I'll be doing 5-6 laps at a time and coming in for an hour cooldown, on stock power.
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      03-04-2018, 05:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
I'll be doing 5-6 laps at a time and coming in for an hour cooldown, on stock power.
I'm assuming you are looking at something like a Brembo or Stop-tech style setup with two piece 14" rotors and directional cooling vanes.

If the BBK is reasonable quality and have suitable pads, I would expect it to be fine.

Last edited by John_01; 03-04-2018 at 09:01 PM..
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      03-08-2018, 08:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
Will most certainly be running R comps. Does a BBK negate the requirement for ducting?
It seems like that is mainly why people put a BBK on these cars. Brake ducts and track pads have been just fine on my car. My stock calipers can lock up 255 200tw tires with ease so brake torque is not an issue in my eyes heat management is. Plenty of "spec" car classes run stock brakes... they just put big brake ducts on the car to compensate.
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      03-09-2018, 04:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliiiiick View Post
Best advice is to drive the car on a track first and see how it performs for yourself. No need to spend thousands if you donít need to. Plus, you may want to save the money for upgrades coilovers which will really benefit you on the track.

I did 7 runs at Palm Beach two weeks ago with stock rotors, ECS stainless steel lines, Motul 600 fluid, and Hawk DTC-60 pads, and the car performed beautifully.
This is all you need to read, since everyone has different needs and requirements. Make sure you start simple, say stock calipers, pads and discs and use say racing fluid.

If that meets what you want, why spend more? If you need more bite, start changing small things first, such as pads and slowly move up to discs.

I forgot what racing class, but there is a specific class that runs Nordschleife 6, 12 and 24 hour endurance racing and they are NOT allowed to change stock calipers. I believe one team raced the E87 123d and ended up being 4th overall using stock calipers (not sure what pads/discs they used).
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      03-12-2018, 07:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
This is all you need to read, since everyone has different needs and requirements. Make sure you start simple, say stock calipers, pads and discs and use say racing fluid.

If that meets what you want, why spend more? If you need more bite, start changing small things first, such as pads and slowly move up to discs.
Thanks for the advice. I generally agree with you, however fully replacing the stock rotors, pads, lines, pistons etc can add up quickly and for not much more I can get a far superior braking system, which is why I am looking into it.

Does anyone have opinions on Wilwood's BBK? I have been offered a kit used for a good price but I can't seem to find any feedback on how they perform on the track
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      03-12-2018, 11:26 PM   #29
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2009 BMM 135i  [4.75]
Check into the cost of replacement rotors and replacement pads.
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      03-13-2018, 06:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
Thanks for the advice. I generally agree with you, however fully replacing the stock rotors, pads, lines, pistons etc can add up quickly and for not much more I can get a far superior braking system, which is why I am looking into it.

Does anyone have opinions on Wilwood's BBK? I have been offered a kit used for a good price but I can't seem to find any feedback on how they perform on the track
It depends where you get them from. I got the front and rear discs and pads OEM for 1/4 of the price from the dealership.

Again my car is 90% on the street and will see the track for fun and learning in late spring and summer, nothing competitive so what i am looking for is different.
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      03-13-2018, 04:52 PM   #31
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When building my 2008 for touring car-type racing I studied a lot of the posts about the lack of durability when the factory Brembo brakes are fitted with competition pads and used hard. It struck me as odd that the 135i's had this problem whereas the E90 335i and M3 models did not despite the latter being equipped with the technically inferior single-piston sliding calipers. A comparison of the respective specifications led me to the conclusion that the 135's problems was likely to be largely caused by its rotors being 4mm thinner (26mm vs 30mm for the 335i/M3). I believe that the smaller air gap between the rotor faces results in a greater transfer of the heat generated when competition-type pads are used to brake harder and more frequently.

As my car is also a daily driver (with front cage and race seat removed) and my racing budget is small I was reluctant to go down the after market BBK route. I was also conscious of wanting to maintain a setup that is road legal, offers relatively cheap replacement costs and avoids wheel fitment problems. To test my theory I purchased some used 335i front rotors/calipers for $US 50 per side plus freight. This is a straight bolt-on and comes with the bonus of a 10mm increase in rotor diameter to 348mm. In relation to the hydraulic side of things there is a difference of just under 5% in piston area that causes a slight increase in pedal effort but no change in pedal height. As the rear brakes do not work as hard as the fronts I fitted a set of Race Brakes stainless steel caliper pistons and their silicone seals/dust boots. In conjunction with some uprated brake fluid and a set of race pads (usually Pagid RS29) I have now been racing (not track days) hard for nearly 3 years without any performance or durability problems or supplementary aids like cooling hoses. A small improvement to be done soon will be the replacement of the rubber bushes used in the sliding calipers with brass items to reduce uneven pad wear. I should mention that the Pagids work well even in Winter lows of -7c and only get slightly noisy after a lot of road use in the 2-3 month break between race seasons. At some tracks the summer air temp reaches the low 40's c. Combined with my uprated twin oil cooler setup the 335i front brakes enable me to easily do races up to 33km in length at maximum effort.

In summary this has proved to be a cheap solution that works well and provides easy access to either factory or after-market rotors. The only downside for some would be the loss of the bling associated with the factory Brembo calipers compared to the dull industrial look of the 335i caliper.
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      03-13-2018, 06:07 PM   #32
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Thanks for the insightful post! Just to be clear, the 335i fronts don't require the SS piston replacement, you just replaced the standard pistons in the rear?
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      03-14-2018, 01:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
Thanks for the advice. I generally agree with you, however fully replacing the stock rotors, pads, lines, pistons etc can add up quickly and for not much more I can get a far superior braking system, which is why I am looking into it.

Does anyone have opinions on Wilwood's BBK? I have been offered a kit used for a good price but I can't seem to find any feedback on how they perform on the track
I can't say for this platform, but I have used Wilwoods on both E30s and Miata's on track.

They present a great value for the money.
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      03-14-2018, 07:51 PM   #34
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No work is needed if using the 335i caliper and mounting brackets; this setup was used for decades on all types of BMW including the E92 V8 M3 without attracting a bad reputation when comp pads were used. It used to be that a BMW owner who wanted to do regular trackwork but not spend much money, could upgrade brake fluid and pads, get some spare wheels with semi-slicks and have fun. I recall doing exactly that to about 6 different cars dating back to the 1980's E30 models with no brake problems whatsoever. To me the ultimate test of the adequacy of the single caliper brake setup was participating in a 2.5 day regularity event at Mt Panorama in 2010. I had a great time running the car as hard as I dared and a subsequent inspection of the car showed nothing other than the type of pad wear expected under such extreme conditions; sadly a standard 135i would not have given me the same positive outcome if only fluid and pads were updated. The prospect of constantly dropping into limp mode on every lap would have been even more dissappointing.

At the risk of upsetting some forum members I believe that many automatically seek after-market brake solutions (i.e BBK's) that are overkill for track days and more importantly for a road registered car, potentially an illegal modification that may invalidate their insurance cover unless the modification is covered by an engineering report and an RTA mod plate. My experience with getting an engineering report for my rear roll cage and minor coilover suspension mods leads me to believe that approval of a BBK would be very expensive as an engineer would need to conduct extensive tests on the adequacy of the braking system probably including track tests. The engineering report for my car cost nearly $2000 despite me providing drawings and CAMS approvals for my AGI cage and the KW Clubsport coilovers having TUV approvals in Germany. Fitting brakes from another BMW model would still require approval but nothing like the amount of potential work needed to assess things like even the adequacy of the fastenings on 2-piece rotors favoured by many BBK manufacturers.
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      03-15-2018, 07:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm49 View Post
No work is needed if using the 335i caliper and mounting brackets; this setup was used for decades on all types of BMW including the E92 V8 M3 without attracting a bad reputation when comp pads were used. It used to be that a BMW owner who wanted to do regular trackwork but not spend much money, could upgrade brake fluid and pads, get some spare wheels with semi-slicks and have fun. I recall doing exactly that to about 6 different cars dating back to the 1980's E30 models with no brake problems whatsoever. To me the ultimate test of the adequacy of the single caliper brake setup was participating in a 2.5 day regularity event at Mt Panorama in 2010. I had a great time running the car as hard as I dared and a subsequent inspection of the car showed nothing other than the type of pad wear expected under such extreme conditions; sadly a standard 135i would not have given me the same positive outcome if only fluid and pads were updated. The prospect of constantly dropping into limp mode on every lap would have been even more dissappointing.

At the risk of upsetting some forum members I believe that many automatically seek after-market brake solutions (i.e BBK's) that are overkill for track days and more importantly for a road registered car, potentially an illegal modification that may invalidate their insurance cover unless the modification is covered by an engineering report and an RTA mod plate. My experience with getting an engineering report for my rear roll cage and minor coilover suspension mods leads me to believe that approval of a BBK would be very expensive as an engineer would need to conduct extensive tests on the adequacy of the braking system probably including track tests. The engineering report for my car cost nearly $2000 despite me providing drawings and CAMS approvals for my AGI cage and the KW Clubsport coilovers having TUV approvals in Germany. Fitting brakes from another BMW model would still require approval but nothing like the amount of potential work needed to assess things like even the adequacy of the fastenings on 2-piece rotors favoured by many BBK manufacturers.
I liked where you were going with the first part... but then you lost me.

135i calipers are more than sufficient for track use. The "melting" or "failing" phenolic piston situation is completely overblown and is not likely unless you have some serious issue with generating heat (which ironically is usually generated from having very good brake torque). Limp mode? what did you expect from a twin turbo car that you most likely tuned for over 400whp? Time for more cooling mods.
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      03-16-2018, 12:58 AM   #36
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I updated my car's oil cooling capability soon after having my first track day (unmodded engine) ruined by constant power cuts and now it can do long races without the limp mode problem. My comment was more intended as a gripe that previous performance and other BMW's had the capability of coping with track days or race conditions with minimal mods such as brake fluid and pads.
The inadequacy of the 135i's 6-piston front brake system is well documented and I have seen both crumbling pistons/melted dust seals and was shocked at the extent of the deterioration. The damage only seems to occur when competition-type pads are fitted and the brakes are used hard, generating excessive heat that the factory parts cannot cope with. The standard brakes are fine for road use and probably OK for light track use.
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      03-19-2018, 05:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm49 View Post
I updated my car's oil cooling capability soon after having my first track day (unmodded engine) ruined by constant power cuts and now it can do long races without the limp mode problem. My comment was more intended as a gripe that previous performance and other BMW's had the capability of coping with track days or race conditions with minimal mods such as brake fluid and pads.
The inadequacy of the 135i's 6-piston front brake system is well documented and I have seen both crumbling pistons/melted dust seals and was shocked at the extent of the deterioration. The damage only seems to occur when competition-type pads are fitted and the brakes are used hard, generating excessive heat that the factory parts cannot cope with. The standard brakes are fine for road use and probably OK for light track use.
I believe the cooling/heat management of the brakes is the real cause behind those melted piston seals. There are several threads about using the F series brake dust shield that come with a more aggressive bend to allow some air to be blown over the disc, caliper and bearing housing. A user even reported less brake temperatures with this cheap OEM mod, while not a proper brake cooling system, it is better than nothing/factory.
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      03-25-2018, 05:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
I believe the cooling/heat management of the brakes is the real cause behind those melted piston seals. There are several threads about using the F series brake dust shield that come with a more aggressive bend to allow some air to be blown over the disc, caliper and bearing housing. A user even reported less brake temperatures with this cheap OEM mod, while not a proper brake cooling system, it is better than nothing/factory.
Do you have a link? Might start with this and some good pads/fluid first and see how I go.
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      03-26-2018, 07:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRickard View Post
Do you have a link? Might start with this and some good pads/fluid first and see how I go.
Certainly:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663510

I found some new F20/F30 back plats for sale on ebay for €40 both including shipping.

I am still waiting for the weather to sort out here, as well as as refurbished wheels and new tires to come so i can tackle the brakes.

And that is how i am starting, everything OEM and fresh/new then see what my needs want. Personally i like how big brake kits look, but i like big disks instead of calipers. Maybe down the road some OEM F30 calipers, pads and discs will be used, not sure.
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      04-14-2018, 04:34 PM   #40
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I did the e90 335i upgrade as well. Got 4 rebuilt calipers, bimmerworld brass bushings, Stoptech rotors, pads, and lines, Motul 600 fluid for around $1100. Doesn't look as blingy but definitely sheds heat better.

It wasn't really too much more than a new set of rotors and pads for the 135 brakes, and there is a massive selection of pads since the 335 and M3 use the same pads. Still debating selling the 135 calipers which would actually make the upgrade cheaper than getting rotors and pads for the stock 135 brakes.
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      05-22-2018, 04:12 PM   #41
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I'd recommend a SS Piston upgrade and some Titanium brake pad shims to reduce the heat transfer from the pad to the pistons and fluid.
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      05-22-2018, 06:45 PM   #42
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Ended up getting a cheap second hand Wilwood BBK which worked out cheaper than upgrading the standard brakes. Thanks for everyone's advice!
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      06-04-2019, 07:06 PM   #43
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Are the 335i rear brakes an upgrade over the 135i rears?
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      06-04-2019, 07:16 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaDog View Post
Ended up getting a cheap second hand Wilwood BBK which worked out cheaper than upgrading the standard brakes. Thanks for everyone's advice!
Do you happen to know the model # of that kit? I'm oddly attracted to Wilwood parts for some reason.
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