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      02-27-2017, 03:45 PM   #67
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As many have found out, at about -2 rear camber and you will run out of toe-in adjustment with the OE toe arms. (At -2.1 rear camber my toe adjustment was maxed out to give zero rear toe.) I made my arms OE length so still had this issue with version 1. I have now made a version 2 that is 3 mm longer to give me some more toe adjustment at my desired rear camber setting. I was able to extract the ball joints and reuse them but the the swaged material had to be machined away rendering the version 1 parts scrap.

Name:  Revised Toe Arm.JPG
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      02-27-2017, 05:45 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
As many have found out, at about -2 rear camber and you will run out of toe-in adjustment with the OE toe arms. (At -2.1 rear camber my toe adjustment was maxed out to give zero rear toe.) I made my arms OE length so still had this issue with version 1. I have now made a version 2 that is 3 mm longer to give me some more toe adjustment at my desired rear camber setting. I was able to extract the ball joints and reuse them but the the swaged material had to be machined away rendering the version 1 parts scrap.

Attachment 1580862
Thanks for all of the info!

You really should do us a favor and make those arms for consumption by the public

Its too bad the rear guide rod is the one to replace and not the upper camber arm (as the guide rods are notably more expensive). The upper arms are actually pretty cheap (about $40 a piece) anyways. I may replace them "just because" they would be newer bushings and should provide some (partial) un-sprung weight savings.

Maybe I missed it but do you have an data on the overall weight of these various pieces?
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      02-27-2017, 09:43 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatsADSM View Post
Maybe I missed it but do you have an data on the overall weight of these various pieces?
Guide Arm 135i - 970 g, M3 - 785 g
Upper Arm 135i - 1115 g, M3 - 840 g
Toe Arm 135i - 1000 g
Camber Arm 135i - 3000 g
Trailing Arm - 515 g
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      03-05-2017, 12:14 PM   #70
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@fe1rx thanks for all the info.

question what do you think the effect of installing the guide rods the wrong way would be. I recently realised the shop I got them installed at put the ball jointed end on the hub... can't trust anyone
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      03-05-2017, 04:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
@fe1rx thanks for all the info.

question what do you think the effect of installing the guide rods the wrong way would be. I recently realised the shop I got them installed at put the ball jointed end on the hub... can't trust anyone
That definitely won't work well. The rear uprights have concave conical seats at the attach locations and the corresponding end of the rear guide rod and wishbone have convex conical mating ends (per the centre image below). Turned around, things simply won't fit correctly.

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      03-05-2017, 04:52 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
@fe1rx thanks for all the info.

question what do you think the effect of installing the guide rods the wrong way would be. I recently realised the shop I got them installed at put the ball jointed end on the hub... can't trust anyone
Are you sure? I don't even even see how that is possible! Lol. Man, they should be ashamed to be in business. I would try and get a refund. Keep in mind, those bolts are one time use and if they did t replace them, they would be reused for a third time if you do t replace when you fix them.
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      03-05-2017, 05:05 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
As many have found out, at about -2 rear camber and you will run out of toe-in adjustment with the OE toe arms. (At -2.1 rear camber my toe adjustment was maxed out to give zero rear toe.) I made my arms OE length so still had this issue with version 1. I have now made a version 2 that is 3 mm longer to give me some more toe adjustment at my desired rear camber setting. I was able to extract the ball joints and reuse them but the the swaged material had to be machined away rendering the version 1 parts scrap.

Attachment 1580862
The $64K question is this: When can I buy a set of fe1rx toe arms?
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      03-05-2017, 05:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
The $64K question is this: When can I buy a set of fe1rx toe arms?
+1.
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      03-05-2017, 05:35 PM   #75
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Making do with a set of velocity motorsports rear toe arms for now. It really did help things. I'd love to have a set of well built arms though. Not that the velocity arms aren't doing well, I just question how long they will last.
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      03-05-2017, 09:52 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houtan View Post
Are you sure? I don't even even see how that is possible! Lol. Man, they should be ashamed to be in business. I would try and get a refund. Keep in mind, those bolts are one time use and if they did t replace them, they would be reused for a third time if you do t replace when you fix them.
Sure looks like it. Will be taking a proper look under the car tonight.

EDIT:

Confirmed they are installed the wrong way around.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by titium; 03-06-2017 at 03:19 AM.
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      03-27-2017, 01:55 AM   #77
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I ended up making my own ball jointed toe arms:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=128


I figure the best idea is to just use oem parts so looked at whether it would be possible to fit a ball joint into the factory toe arms. The stock factory rear upper link has a ball joint and is available separately for repairing an arm.

I found that while the ball joint is not avilable as a part number from BMW, it is available as a joint from Meyle or in my case FEBEST BMAB-044Z:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/172556729...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Theres an error with the listing saying it is compatible with the toe arm bushings. This is wrong and it is actually the bushing for the upper control arm.

The width of the bushing is identical to the toe arm but the diameter is slightly larger. If I remember correctly it was around 45.50mm. The diamter of the toe arm bushing is approximately 44mm, but needed to be slightly oversize to press in snugly. As I have a lathe, machining off a mm is not a big deal and can be done pretty easily. These bushings will not work unless theyre machined down.

I tried using combinations of threaded rod to press the machined bushings in but did not have luck. The threaded rod tools would not reliably press the joint in squarely and usually resulted in the joint not going in straight. I managed to get one joint in but couldnt get the 2nd joint into the arm to complete it. The project sat on the shelf for several months and I almost forgot about it.

Recently I just got a shop press, as I found I really needed one for a lot of small jobs. Made it really easy to press in the joints, I really should have made them more oversize and relied on the brute force of the press to get them in. I did around a 44.15mm sizing but shouldve gone 44.30. This would have resulted in a much tighter fit. A couple of them were a little loose. So I ended up having to tack weld them in to ensure they don't move. Not ideal but looks like the bushings survived ok. Once my old toe arms are removed I will make a 2nd set with a tighter fit and keep these ones as spare.

Gave the upgrade toe arms a lick of paint to cover the tacks and ready to go on the car!

I still have not fitted these to the car yet, I have just fitted an LSD and want to evaluate the handling of the car before changing the toe arms.















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      03-27-2017, 11:22 PM   #78
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Great solution, and a great find on the Meyle joint!

Would love to try it, but I don't think any machine shop here in CA would touch it because of liability... :-(

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      03-28-2017, 02:45 PM   #79
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How do you guys feel about the whiteline poly bushings? Coming from a honda background, we use them for some of the stock locations, but not others, as the poly bushing does not have compliance in 2 directions, where as the stock rubber ones do, IE the rear trailing arm bushing.
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      03-29-2017, 08:12 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
I found that while the ball joint is not avilable as a part number from BMW, it is available as a joint from Meyle or in my case FEBEST BMAB-044Z:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/172556729...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Theres an error with the listing saying it is compatible with the toe arm bushings. This is wrong and it is actually the bushing for the upper control arm.

The width of the bushing is identical to the toe arm but the diameter is slightly larger. If I remember correctly it was around 45.50mm. The diamter of the toe arm bushing is approximately 44mm, but needed to be slightly oversize to press in snugly. As I have a lathe, machining off a mm is not a big deal and can be done pretty easily. These bushings will not work unless theyre machined down.

I tried using combinations of threaded rod to press the machined bushings in but did not have luck. The threaded rod tools would not reliably press the joint in squarely and usually resulted in the joint not going in straight. I managed to get one joint in but couldnt get the 2nd joint into the arm to complete it. The project sat on the shelf for several months and I almost forgot about it.

Recently I just got a shop press, as I found I really needed one for a lot of small jobs. Made it really easy to press in the joints, I really should have made them more oversize and relied on the brute force of the press to get them in. I did around a 44.15mm sizing but shouldve gone 44.30. This would have resulted in a much tighter fit. A couple of them were a little loose. So I ended up having to tack weld them in to ensure they don't move. Not ideal but looks like the bushings survived ok. Once my old toe arms are removed I will make a 2nd set with a tighter fit and keep these ones as spare.
Interesting approach. Getting the press fit right is definitely desirable, and installing with a Loctite bearing retaining compound is probably a good idea too. Tack welding risks cooking the dust boot or the internal bearing. The tack will likely crack if there is any movement in the fit anyway, whereas Loctite will fill any gaps. A proper interference fit is obviously best though. Luckily the way the parts install prevents the joint from coming fully apart in service, but I would suggest chalking any arm without a proper interference fit to experience and tossing it. Prototypes and test articles are part of the process and the cost of developing parts.

Here is an equivalent Lemforder part, with the pertinent dimensions noted:

Name:  Lemforder 30679 01.jpg
Views: 941
Size:  46.9 KB

Incidentally, when you press a ball joint (or any bearing) in, you should press on the outer race, not the inner, to prevent overloading and damaging the bearing. Bearings are generally not designed to take high loads in the axial (push-in) direction.
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      03-29-2017, 06:36 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
Interesting approach. Getting the press fit right is definitely desirable, and installing with a Loctite bearing retaining compound is probably a good idea too. Tack welding risks cooking the dust boot or the internal bearing. The tack will likely crack if there is any movement in the fit anyway, whereas Loctite will fill any gaps. A proper interference fit is obviously best though. Luckily the way the parts install prevents the joint from coming fully apart in service, but I would suggest chalking any arm without a proper interference fit to experience and tossing it. Prototypes and test articles are part of the process and the cost of developing parts.

Here is an equivalent Lemforder part, with the pertinent dimensions noted:

Attachment 1597281

Incidentally, when you press a ball joint (or any bearing) in, you should press on the outer race, not the inner, to prevent overloading and damaging the bearing. Bearings are generally not designed to take high loads in the axial (push-in) direction.
Yep definitely wont be using these arms for long, the tack welding is definitely not ideal. I pressed from the outer race and used a 36mm socket which fit and worked very well in pressing them in.

The bushings only cost $20 each so wasn't a big investment in R&D, ill need to get around to fitting them and testing them out
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      04-19-2017, 05:15 PM   #82
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So what is the moral of this thread? Are the M3 front and rear control arms worth buying or not?
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      04-19-2017, 05:39 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3k1n View Post
So what is the moral of this thread? Are the M3 front and rear control arms worth buying or not?
Moral
noun
1. a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.


In this case, no moral is implied or intended. You have to make your own value judgment based on your own values. "They look nice" is an entirely sufficient reason if that is what you value. This thread was intended to provide food for thought for people that value, um, thought.
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      05-25-2017, 10:00 PM   #84
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Great post!

Awesome technical info.


With all that said....what is the best bang for the buck as far as upgrading our suspension arms/pieces?

Id like to upgrade my 135 for track duty with moderate downforce and R comp tires.

Stick with the oe?
Go full M3?
Somewhere in between?
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      05-25-2017, 11:50 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
This thread was intended to provide food for thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
These members provide the functional equivalent of a double A-arm suspension
Any musings on the trailing arm bushings? As part of the primary "A", it seems like a "joint" upgrade of some kind would be beneficial. Is there a thread I may have missed?
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      05-27-2017, 11:16 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Any musings on the trailing arm bushings? As part of the primary "A", it seems like a "joint" upgrade of some kind would be beneficial. Is there a thread I may have missed?
For a track car maybe. I do note that Bimmerworld offers a spherical bearing kit for the trailing arms:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWor...ing-Set_2.html

They also have one for the inner camber arm:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWor...aring-Kit.html

I expect a definite increase in NVH with the trailing arm kit, although they claim no significant difference with the camber arm kit.

I would be interested in hearing people's experience with both kits.
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      05-28-2017, 07:03 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
For a track car maybe. I do note that Bimmerworld offers a spherical bearing kit for the trailing arms:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWor...ing-Set_2.html

They also have one for the inner camber arm:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWor...aring-Kit.html

I expect a definite increase in NVH with the trailing arm kit, although they claim no significant difference with the camber arm kit.

I would be interested in hearing people's experience with both kits.
I was eyeballing the Group N stuff at Turner as a street upgrade, a compromise between the stock rubber and full balls. https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...ubber-e82-e9x/. Sounds like I'll have to find out for myself.
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      05-28-2017, 11:37 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
I was eyeballing the Group N stuff at Turner as a street upgrade, a compromise between the stock rubber and full balls. https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...ubber-e82-e9x/. Sounds like I'll have to find out for myself.
In my (self-interested) view, the only reason to go Group N would be to fit into a ruleset. Go full ball and report back please!
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