Spy photos of the M1 / 1M in Sedona Red with completed front body work

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

spartikus, can't wait to reply to your post during the official press release of the non M 1 series ...although, I wish I were wrong b/c I'd love a 1 series M.

M cars typically share 2 body panels with their normal production siblings (the doors) and this thing seems to share them all except the front facade and the quarters to accommodate the larger tires.

Barring the lack of a quad exhaust, everyone has been referencing the e30 or e36 - thats fine. Those models had a different decklid, rear facade, side skirt, roof, hood, front and rear quarters, and front spoiler from the closest 3 series variant. I know, everyone says this is a mule - well its been out for a while and all of our BMW insiders claim it will be for sale prior to the F10 M5 - we're running out of time.

The e30, e36, e46, e92 and every other m car also demonstrate a significant power increase over the next closest non-M car in the lineup (think of the most recent example - the 335 at 300bph vs. M3 at 415, etc.). Now do the same for the 1 series - already pretty potent and no chance they are putting enough punch to trounce the certain-to-be-priced higher M3 (like porsche detuning the cayman S to avoid cannibalization of the base 911). So what do you get? A mid-life model like the Z4is....something to boost sales and a cool derivative but not a new M car.

There are too many factors contributing to the 135is....sorry. I hope I'm wrong but I sincerely doubt it.

Oh, I can't wait to reply to yours as well when the press release comes out. You make valid points but this car isn't finished yet. We still have six months allegedly before the "official" unveiling. A lot can change. First we saw pics of a 135i body with grafted fenders. The front was still standard. Now we're seeing a new front fascia with grafted panels? What about the roof? Why is the majority of it blackened?

Can you explain why the internet's most credible source, Scott26, says it is an M car?

Why is BMW's M Boss talking about a //M offering below an M3?

There is more evidences IMO that points to this being an M car than not IMO. We can go way back to the first snow pictures of the mules being spotted near M headquarters that Southlight posted. AFAIK, the iS Z4 and 3 series did not have any interaction with the M Division. Its only being offered in North America, right?

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Oh, I can't wait to reply to yours as well when the press release comes out. You make valid points but this car isn't finished yet. We still have six months allegedly before the "official" unveiling. A lot can change. First we saw pics of a 135i body with grafted fenders. The front was still standard. Now we're seeing a new front fascia with grafted panels? What about the roof? Why is the majority of it blackened?

Can you explain why the internet's most credible source, Scott26, says it is an M car?

Why is BMW's M Boss talking about a //M offering below an M3?

There is more evidences IMO that points to this being an M car than not IMO. We can go way back to the first snow pictures of the mules being spotted near M headquarters that Southlight posted. AFAIK, the iS Z4 and 3 series did not have any interaction with the M Division. Its only being offered in North America, right?

As I said, very much hope you're right.

And everything I read points to the eventual introduction of a sub M3 M car. Price points are ascending rapidly (with weight and power)....I'm confident that power and weight increases will slow, but not sure costs will decline thus prices will continue their upward trajectory. Given the base prices of the e36 M3 at $39k, then the e46 at 48k and now the e92 at 58k, I see a pretty consistent pattern not justified by inflationary forces (ie. the cars are getting more expensive faster than the dollar is worth less). This, to me, means that the next M3 will be a mid 60 to 70k base car and there are plenty of M lovers willing to dish out cash but not able to hit that target hence a lower M model. I think Scott is right, and the leaders at M Gmbh are honest when they discuss a 1 series M - I just don't believe its going to be under this iteration of the 1 series variant.

My biggest reason - M has always co-engineered the platform to ensure that the base model will be uber competent in the M guise. The folks at BMW hold this early stage development as a crucial driver for beating the likes of AMG and audi Sport b/c those folks build a car and then slap performance parts on as an afterthought. Audi recently amended that procedure and, IMO, took great strides in bridging the gap between the old S / M models to the most latest output. Quite simply, M didn't design or assist with the original 1 series chassis like they did with the 3 series and 5 series. I even saw video of the M guys working on the development team on the latest X5 and X6 - now we know why. I'm sure a 1 series (or similar offering) will come around - but my guess is that it will be a part of the completely refurbished 1 series due out in a few years.

To your point about the roof panel – I was under the impression that the lack of a sunroof provided a lighter body and more rigidity. The pics look like the engineers put carbon fiber over the sunroof but avoided the rear portion of the roof – I believe this is to test a more rigid version b/c of the likihood that the is will be more track capable and present the most competent car….if they were going to carbon fiber the entire roof, wouldn’t they just do it? Why cut out a small piece unless its there to cover a gapping hole.

Incorporate the lack of M paneling, M brand cues (quad exhausts, side gills, etc.), limited time, and the glaring performance problem and I think I still lean towards a 135is. I alluded to the performance issue in my prior post – you can’t sell a 1M for 10k less than an M3 and have it be an all around faster/better car. The 135 OE vs. the M OE is already a little close for comfort. No one will pay a 5 or 10k premium for a 1 m for marginal performance improvements – hence the conundrum – you have to make a 1 M significantly better than an already great 135, but not too good to take away from the M3.

My guess, as mentioned earlier, is that you will see a greater dichotomy in the 1 series lineup in the next generation resulting in a great 1 M that outperforms its lower variant counterpart without infringing upon the M3s higher priced territory.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

As I said, very much hope you're right.

And everything I read points to the eventual introduction of a sub M3 M car. Price points are ascending rapidly (with weight and power)....I'm confident that power and weight increases will slow, but not sure costs will decline thus prices will continue their upward trajectory. Given the base prices of the e36 M3 at $39k, then the e46 at 48k and now the e92 at 58k, I see a pretty consistent pattern not justified by inflationary forces (ie. the cars are getting more expensive faster than the dollar is worth less). This, to me, means that the next M3 will be a mid 60 to 70k base car and there are plenty of M lovers willing to dish out cash but not able to hit that target hence a lower M model. I think Scott is right, and the leaders at M Gmbh are honest when they discuss a 1 series M - I just don't believe its going to be under this iteration of the 1 series variant.

My biggest reason - M has always co-engineered the platform to ensure that the base model will be uber competent in the M guise. The folks at BMW hold this early stage development as a crucial driver for beating the likes of AMG and audi Sport b/c those folks build a car and then slap performance parts on as an afterthought. Audi recently amended that procedure and, IMO, took great strides in bridging the gap between the old S / M models to the most latest output. Quite simply, M didn't design or assist with the original 1 series chassis like they did with the 3 series and 5 series. I even saw video of the M guys working on the development team on the latest X5 and X6 - now we know why. I'm sure a 1 series (or similar offering) will come around - but my guess is that it will be a part of the completely refurbished 1 series due out in a few years.

To your point about the roof panel – I was under the impression that the lack of a sunroof provided a lighter body and more rigidity. The pics look like the engineers put carbon fiber over the sunroof but avoided the rear portion of the roof – I believe this is to test a more rigid version b/c of the likihood that the is will be more track capable and present the most competent car….if they were going to carbon fiber the entire roof, wouldn’t they just do it? Why cut out a small piece unless its there to cover a gapping hole.

Incorporate the lack of M paneling, M brand cues (quad exhausts, side gills, etc.), limited time, and the glaring performance problem and I think I still lean towards a 135is. I alluded to the performance issue in my prior post – you can’t sell a 1M for 10k less than an M3 and have it be an all around faster/better car. The 135 OE vs. the M OE is already a little close for comfort. No one will pay a 5 or 10k premium for a 1 m for marginal performance improvements – hence the conundrum – you have to make a 1 M significantly better than an already great 135, but not too good to take away from the M3.

My guess, as mentioned earlier, is that you will see a greater dichotomy in the 1 series lineup in the next generation resulting in a great 1 M that outperforms its lower variant counterpart without infringing upon the M3s higher priced territory.

I've followed Scott's post for years. He is speaking with the urgency of now. The next gen 1 coupe is years out. M cars dont launch simultaneously with the normal models like Mercedes normally does. Take a look at the M5 spy shots. The side skirts are identical to the normal 5er. It's all about Marketing. BMW will never market the M1 as a better car than an M1. Plenty of people find the styling of the 1series ugly. The M3 will always be "better" to the majority of the public b/c its more powerful, elegant, and has a 3 behind that M.

Well, you've made your points and I've made mine. You can find one scientist to promote one theory and another to disprove it. We shall know soon enough.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

I've followed Scott's post for years. He is speaking with the urgency of now. The next gen 1 coupe is years out. M cars dont launch simultaneously with the normal models like Mercedes normally does. Take a look at the M5 spy shots. The side skirts are identical to the normal 5er. It's all about Marketing. BMW will never market the M1 as a better car than an M1. Plenty of people find the styling of the 1series ugly. The M3 will always be "better" to the majority of the public b/c its more powerful, elegant, and has a 3 behind that M.

Well, you've made your points and I've made mine. You can find one scientist to promote one theory and another to disprove it. We shall know soon enough.

Agreed - we shall see soon.

You just reminded me of a last point. Think of production timelines and costs....an M version is typically released 12 to 18 months after the non-M version. This is b/c the finance guys at BMW know the useful life of a model is 4 to 7 years. If we look at the e46 - the new 3 series was released in 2000 and the M3 followed in 2001. THe e92 came out in 2007 with the M in '08. The new 5 series just dropped as a '10 model and 2011 will offer the M5.

This version of the 1 series has been out for 3 or 4 years, correct? Why introduce an M now and spend all that money engineering it for a 1 or 2 year production run? Be smart, release a slightly modded 135is to judge interest in an M 1 (not simply a poll but how many people are willing to pay up) and use that for amo during the next run to produce an M variant from inception. We've seen BMW do it before BUT we have never seen an M variant come out years after the release of the base platform and only have a 2 year production run....just doesn't make financial sense b/c the cost of engineering and retooling for the M car can't be recouped at a reasonable market-driven price point in that short of a timeline before the new model is released....

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Agreed - we shall see soon.

You just reminded me of a last point. Think of production timelines and costs....an M version is typically released 12 to 18 months after the non-M version. This is b/c the finance guys at BMW know the useful life of a model is 4 to 7 years. If we look at the e46 - the new 3 series was released in 2000 and the M3 followed in 2001. THe e92 came out in 2007 with the M in '08. The new 5 series just dropped as a '10 model and 2011 will offer the M5.

This version of the 1 series has been out for 3 or 4 years, correct? Why introduce an M now and spend all that money engineering it for a 1 or 2 year production run? Be smart, release a slightly modded 135is to judge interest in an M 1 (not simply a poll but how many people are willing to pay up) and use that for amo during the next run to produce an M variant from inception. We've seen BMW do it before BUT we have never seen an M variant come out years after the release of the base platform and only have a 2 year production run....just doesn't make financial sense b/c the cost of engineering and retooling for the M car can't be recouped at a reasonable market-driven price point in that short of a timeline before the new model is released....

Have you forgotten about the BMW Z4M roadster and coupe? It came out 4yrs after the Z4 roadster and only had a two model year run.

Oh, I thought about the rest of your post as well. Scott26 said the M would be a send-off several times. It cant be a send-off if he was talking about the next gen.

CarandDriver totally has the motor wrong but even they acknowledge what we see is likely an M car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...eries_m_-spied

I doubt BMW's M division is working on an 1M 4yrs in advance. It would be stupid to do so when we've only seen hatchback mules.

Scott even posted up teasers of the E82! I'm guessing it would not be too cost prohibitive since they would be using a lot of M3 components(brakes, LSD, etc). It would no doubt be a limited edition run.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Have you forgotten about the BMW Z4M roadster and coupe? It came out 4yrs after the Z4 roadster and only had a two model year run.

Oh, I thought about the rest of your post as well. Scott26 said the M would be a send-off several times. It cant be a send-off if he was talking about the next gen.

CarandDriver totally has the motor wrong but even they acknowledge what we see is likely an M car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...eries_m_-spied

I doubt BMW's M division is working on an 1M 4yrs in advance. It would be stupid to do so when we've only seen hatchback mules.

Scott even posted up teasers of the E82! I'm guessing it would not be too cost prohibitive since they would be using a lot of M3 components(brakes, LSD, etc). It would no doubt be a limited edition run.

Nah man - z4 m didn't live up to profit expectations, hence the latest non M z4is - and it came out in 2007 after the initial 2006 model year release of the new (mid life alteration of the) Z4 (further proving my earlier point)!

Oh, and I never said this mule is the 1series M for the next gen - I'm saying its not the M for this gen b/c there will not be one. Its an IS man, I want it to be an M too, but it isn't so just relax and let it go.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

My point exactly! The z4 M killed profitability at BMW, hence the latest non M z4is - executives actually publicly acknowledged that it was a huge mistake investing in an M model that late in production cycle! Think they got to the top by making the same mistake twice?

Oh, and I never said this mule is the 1series M for the next gen - I'm saying its not the M for this gen b/c there will not be one. Its an IS man, I want it to be an M too, but it isn't so just relax and let it go.

No, that was NOT your point. Your point was that there NEVER has been. My point is that there HAS. Dont try to spin it. Dude, the Z4 and 1 series have totally different buyers. That's like saying a Mustang GT coupe has similar buyers as a Mazdaspeed Miata conv. Yea right. There is a myriad of reasons that attribute to the horrible sales of the Z4M. If you want to get technical, the roadster had an M version half way thru its life cycle. Audi's RS4 normally come at the end of the model's cycle in the U.S. and they do quite fine. I am very relaxed. I know for a FACT that is an M car. BMW is on a string of doing weird things. Blasphemic M SUV's, non-naturally aspirated M cars. Anyway you slice it they will continue to do so b/c this is in YOUR opinion is non-M car with a LSD, Flared fenders, etc. <- Blashpemy once again.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

No, that was NOT your point. Your point was that there NEVER has been. My point is that there HAS. Dont try to spin it. Dude, the Z4 and 1 series have totally different buyers. That's like saying a Mustang GT coupe has similar buyers as a Mazdaspeed Miata conv. Yea right. There is a myriad of reasons that attribute to the horrible sales of the Z4M. If you want to get technical, the roadster had an M version half way thru its life cycle. Audi's RS4 normally come at the end of the model's cycle in the U.S. and they do quite fine. I am very relaxed. I know for a FACT that is an M car. BMW is on a string of doing weird things. Blasphemic M SUV's, non-naturally aspirated M cars. Anyway you slice it they will continue to do so b/c this is in YOUR opinion is non-M car with a LSD, Flared fenders, etc. <- Blashpemy once again.

How about this - lets just wait and see. And if you're right I'll eat my words. If I'm right, you'll finally swallow hard and acknowledge it.

Enough

Instead of continuing to argue about this with no possible solution on the near horizon, I'm going for a drive in my M car - the one they already built.

Done.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

How about this - lets just wait and see. And if you're right I'll eat my words. If I'm right, you'll finally swallow hard and acknowledge it.

Enough

Instead of continuing to argue about this with no possible solution on the near horizon, I'm going for a drive in my M car - the one they already built.

Done.

It was was fun going several rounds with ya, Auggie. Take note BIMMERPOST.COM This is how you end a heated/sprited discussion. I'm gonna go take a Sunday nap and dream about the one they're gonna build next year. Later!

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

It was was fun going several rounds with ya, Auggie. Take note BIMMERPOST.COM This is how you end a heated/sprited discussion. I'm gonna go take a Sunday nap and dream about the one they're gonna build next year. Later!

My bad on the poor etiquette.

Scratch done and replace with

[BMW269]

I can't wait to see this "M1" with all parts: 18" Style M 359, CF roof, power dome hood, CSL style trunk, specific side skurts, specific mirrors, side vents, 6-piston brakes, quad exhaust, maybe new LED head and tail lights and a very good sound with carbon airbox.

I am already thinking of mods.
-Akrapovic
-KW V3 CS
-Advan RS (they should pass under these wide fenders)

[ZER0_C00L]

Originally Posted by Levi

I can't wait to see this "M1" with all parts: 18" Style M 359, CF roof, power dome hood, CSL style trunk, specific side skurts, specific mirrors, side vents, 6-piston brakes, quad exhaust, maybe new LED head and tail lights and a very good sound with carbon airbox.

I am already thinking of mods.
-Akrapovic
-KW V3 CS
-Advan RS (they should pass under these wide fenders)

sounds pretty good to me as well

[trahsub]

I love the high level of concern with the quad exhaust - still not sure why people are so obsessed with some exhaust tips.

Also, can someone point me to the press release from BMW that states all M cars going forward will have mandatory quad exhausts?

[///M///M Good]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Wow. They disguised a Nissan gtr as a g35 with a skyline body kit

The car was developed from the G35, so of course the first test mules were G35 bodies.

[x5mad]

Originally Posted by Alpine325ci

regardless thats still a fender cover. the real M1 fender will be slightly smaller than the one you see there.

I agree with alpine325ci here. The 2 cars are the same car. Registration number (license plate) for the 2 sedona reds are the same.

Also look carefully at the rear flares/fenders on the black and red cars. The black car looks more like a finished product whereas on the red car it looks like the wheel is swallowed whole by the fender - the offset is all wrong, it doesnt line up as well as on the black car.

[///M///M Good]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Agreed - we shall see soon.

You just reminded me of a last point. Think of production timelines and costs....an M version is typically released 12 to 18 months after the non-M version. This is b/c the finance guys at BMW know the useful life of a model is 4 to 7 years. If we look at the e46 - the new 3 series was released in 2000 and the M3 followed in 2001. THe e92 came out in 2007 with the M in '08. The new 5 series just dropped as a '10 model and 2011 will offer the M5.

This version of the 1 series has been out for 3 or 4 years, correct? Why introduce an M now and spend all that money engineering it for a 1 or 2 year production run? Be smart, release a slightly modded 135is to judge interest in an M 1 (not simply a poll but how many people are willing to pay up) and use that for amo during the next run to produce an M variant from inception. We've seen BMW do it before BUT we have never seen an M variant come out years after the release of the base platform and only have a 2 year production run....just doesn't make financial sense b/c the cost of engineering and retooling for the M car can't be recouped at a reasonable market-driven price point in that short of a timeline before the new model is released....

Your argument fails to take into account the fact that you are comparing established product lines versus a new product line. The current M3 is in its 4th generation as a version of a car line in its 5th generation. The current M5 is in its 4th or 5th generation (depending on whether or not you count the E12 M535i as an "M") as a version of a car line in its 5th generation. The 1 series was a completely new car line for BMW and, as such, you really can't make the same comparison. BMW didn't know if there was going to be a market for the car, especially after the 318ti's failure in the US (and 2nd generation failure everywhere else). So you can't compare a potential M version of the 1 series to the others, since you can't be certain an M version was a foregone conclusion of the model range like it is for the 3 and 5, which are well-established.

Also, if you look at the 335is, you see BMW doing an upgrade with off-the-shelf parts from the BMW Performance line . . . no LSD, no bodywork other than bolt-ons. The 1 series mules we've been seeing are clearly more substantial than that, and in more than one shot show LSD's with cooling fins, a bigger M trademark than the quad exhausts so many are focusing on.

[mshahidz]

did anyone else spot the m3 seats?

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by mohammadz

did anyone else spot the m3 seats?

True..And if you look close enough it also seems to be a true ///M steering wheel with the multi coloured stitching.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by ///M///M Good

Your argument fails to take into account the fact that you are comparing established product lines versus a new product line. The current M3 is in its 4th generation as a version of a car line in its 5th generation. The current M5 is in its 4th or 5th generation (depending on whether or not you count the E12 M535i as an "M") as a version of a car line in its 5th generation. The 1 series was a completely new car line for BMW and, as such, you really can't make the same comparison. BMW didn't know if there was going to be a market for the car, especially after the 318ti's failure in the US (and 2nd generation failure everywhere else). So you can't compare a potential M version of the 1 series to the others, since you can't be certain an M version was a foregone conclusion of the model range like it is for the 3 and 5, which are well-established.

Also, if you look at the 335is, you see BMW doing an upgrade with off-the-shelf parts from the BMW Performance line . . . no LSD, no bodywork other than bolt-ons. The 1 series mules we've been seeing are clearly more substantial than that, and in more than one shot show LSD's with cooling fins, a bigger M trademark than the quad exhausts so many are focusing on.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the argument holds true against a new product line with the introduction of the X5 M and X6 M - both cars released within 18 months of their newest respective models (the latest iteration of the x5 and, a relatively more patinated but still youthful X6) and both a first for bmw M.

As I've said before, we shall wait and see - I hope its a 1 series M but I'm leaning the other way. Obviously the fellas at M Gmbh haven't been sticking to the rules lately so lets hope they veer from their historic (granted more recent last 10 years) behavior.

[mikeokimster]

Originally Posted by mohammadz

did anyone else spot the m3 seats?

Dammit you had to burst my bubble. I was going through the 1st three pages of this thinking I was the first one to notice this.,....

Anyways they look sweet!! Hopefully they use premium leather like that in the M3's.

[Itanius]

It amazes me how so many people get caught up on the exhaust thing.

The car is shaping up quite nicely, though!

[sid33]

I just figured since there has been all this debate back and forth about what an M car really should be (quad exhausts , engine types etc) I figurd this might be an interesting vid ... Just wanted to share ..

There is a portion dedicated to the M1 so I figured its relevant.. Not great quality and its dated but thought it was cool ..

http://www.webridestv.com/videos/bmw-m-history-16012