Performance One: Dinan Turbo Replacement for N54

[darkrom]

Originally Posted by machspeed

None of you people are tuners or engineers. It takes teams of both to develope quality software. If you want to rely on someone with no credentials like JB4, cobb or vishnu, thats fine but I'm surprised that you think your opinion is gospel. If you like cheap shit, sell your Bimmer and buy hyundai.

You act like burger has no idea what they are doing. Its very well tested and reviewed pretty extensively. Its not just a boost controller like some ignorant people seem to think. See if an n54 with a boost controller drives like a jb4.

You are delusional if you think the dinan tune is anything more than a one time flash of a Cobb protune set up for very mild power gains. I'm still waiting for one dinan fan to explain one way their reflash is better than a Cobb flash. Its quite literally the same thing, only with way less power and a massive price tag so people will be tricked into thinking they are paying for something more. If you want to argue in favor of dinan flash tunes, just give one example of what they offer that is better than the competition without using buzzwords from sales pitches. If you want to say they are "better engineered" flashes please provide even one example of how. Got better iats? Got better AF/r?

If its so much better, you wouldn't think the fan boys would have such a hard time citing one way the tune is "better" than any of the competitors.

Until someone can even explain why they are better, you all look like easily swindled saps to me. If its an educated decision, share your secret knowledge of dinan magic.

[PeteA]

No one cares darkrom argument is done, move onto the next thread.

[loesch]

Yep. Darkrom wins that one. Argument over.

[ONDEMAND]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Oh you silly kids and your cars that accelerate in a straight line.

I never understood the whole drag race your bmw thing but hey different strokes for different folks.

At the end of the day each tune, be it flash or piggy has its own advantages. Those who have the flash understand its advantages, those who have the piggy understand its advantages. I prefer a flash personally but I see the advantages or abilities of the piggy and thats cool.

Why should anyone give a flying f#(& what tune another person runs or feel the need to pick at them!!!???

Some people like pizza some dont.......

Cant we just leave it at that?

[3002 tii]

Guess I stand somewhere in the middle of this. I don't think JB4 is a simple boost controller and maybe it's more a function of the difficulty cracking the N55's but I've read too many threads where N55 DCT owners with JB4's encountered stalling issues. On the flip side, I do think Dinan's $1999 is ridiculous for a stage 1 reflash. If Dinan came down to $1000 I'd be all over it just for warranty purposes and truthfully I don't need JB4 power especially on the track.

[Acheron83]

Originally Posted by machspeed

None of you people are tuners or engineers. It takes teams of both to develope quality software. If you want to rely on someone with no credentials like JB4, cobb or vishnu, thats fine but I'm surprised that you think your opinion is gospel. If you like cheap shit, sell your Bimmer and buy hyundai.

It doesn't take a chef to know when food tastes like sh*t.

You claim the 3 you mention have no credentials, yet each continue to outsell the Dinan solutions several times over. Do you know why?

1) They continue to produce consistent results.
2) They are not priced out of line due to "BMW tax" when compared to other car brand performance products.
3) They were all developed with the wider community involved at the testing, implementation and support phases.
4) Each has beaten Dinan to the market at every stage.
5) Each is more flexible than Dinan and empowers the user to make changes should they wish to get more out of their car without unnecessarily throwing more money at the problem.

There is a law of diminishing returns at play here and with any other tuning scene out there. Spending less than the most expensive products out there does not necessarily equate to inferior products. Saving money is not always a compromise.

All of the above however is probably lost on you as, judging by what's displayed to the right of your post, you just came in here to try and justify your purchase.

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Guess I stand somewhere in the middle of this. I don't think JB4 is a simple boost controller and maybe it's more a function of the difficulty cracking the N55's but I've read too many threads where N55 DCT owners with JB4's encountered stalling issues. On the flip side, I do think Dinan's $1999 is ridiculous for a stage 1 reflash. If Dinan came down to $1000 I'd be all over it just for warranty purposes and truthfully I don't need JB4 power especially on the track.

Check Dinan's website. Stage 2 is $1100!! (On sale 15% off). Normally it is $1299, not $2000. I think many, many people think Dinan stage 2 is $2000.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by cbl117

Check Dinan's website. Stage 2 is $1100!! (On sale 15% off). Normally it is $1299, not $2000. I think many, many people think Dinan stage 2 is $2000.

That's N54 pricing but N55 shows $1999 less 15% = $1699. Life is good for N54 owners... =)

http://dinancars.com/product/d900-31...ries&mid=1159/

[Freon]

Originally Posted by machspeed

None of you people are tuners or engineers. It takes teams of both to develope quality software. If you want to rely on someone with no credentials like JB4, cobb or vishnu, thats fine but I'm surprised that you think your opinion is gospel. If you like cheap shit, sell your Bimmer and buy hyundai.

No credentials?!?! Hahahahaha... Pot, meet kettle. There actually *are* engineers on this board. Perhaps not specifically automotive, but MEs, EEs, etc. Just because we don't work for BMW, Dinan, or Cobb ourselves doesn't mean we can't understand what it is we are buying.

I've tuned cars and hacked ECUs for *years*. What have you done? Something tells me you have little to no idea how tuning technology works yourself. Your opinion is not to be respected on this subject if you can't argue the points. You're painting with an awfully large brush. Can you back it up with knowledge?

You need to do your homework at least on Cobb. They've been in the tuning business for over a decade and are very well respected in the industry. They've got some of the best technology for tuning cars with the Access Port. Most other competitors are mail-in solutions, which is horrible from a usability perspective. Personally I don't have a lot of respect for Vishnu (he seems to fumble in and out of markets with poor service). Everyone seems to be extremely happy with their JB products, and they've been around for many years showing results, so I think you're also wrong there.

Your post shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology here. If you're going to criticize some of these vendors, you need to stick your neck out and specifically say what they do wrong and why they suck, and show how Dinan is better. I don't think you can because you are simply ignorant and speaking well outside your areas of knowledge and expertise.

If you want to pay for "feel good" product, that's what Dinan is. They market things like "heritage" and underwriting of warranties, not performance and technology.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by darkrom

OR you spend $500 and it DOESN'T break, outperforms the dinan and adds additional features. I still can't find an example of anything dinan does "better" without using buzzwords you picked up in sales pitches. "the engineering bro". JB4 is well tested. Cobb is well tested. Both are better than dinan in every way other than they don't give you points to buy a badge so you can show everyone how cool they are.

Answer this, what does dinan do better? SHOW me something they do better than either JB4 or Cobb. You make claims about cooling, seems based on nothing to me. Show me the IATs of the JB4 vs Cobb vs dinans one time flash that you are basing these claims on. Show literally ANY piece of evidence that dinan does anything better than ANY of the competitors. Until that happens you are just spewing marketing back up.

JB4 and cobb are both cheaper and have better performance and additional features that a simple one time reflash won't/can't have. So now present an actual argument of why you feel dinan is worth the price gauging and lackluster performance please.

That is why those who juice^... LEASE!

So they are not around 5 years later when that engine takes a dump! Durability is a performance factor you are over looking. Because you are a poser and only want to look like you've spent the money on your engine to safeguard it... but instead use up the engine...

Notice how Terry Burger doesn't sponsor any street racing events..?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

That is why those who juice^... LEASE!

So they are not around 5 years later when that engine takes a dump! Durability is a performance factor you are over looking. Because you are a poser and only want to look like you've spent the money on your engine to safeguard it... but instead use up the engine...

Notice how Terry Burger doesn't sponsor any street racing events..?

There are plenty of JB4 and Cobb users on these boards who outright own their vehicles. Myself included. Please present some data to back up this claim because I'm just not seeing it.

No one modifies their car to increase power and torque output in order to safeguard the engine. Increasing power and torque places additional strain on all moving components, and by its very definition reduces overall reliability. They can however choose a tuner that does have built in failsafes. The JB4 does this. I do not know how Cobb approaches this. I know Dinans flash does not.

How can one use up an engine exactly? Your lack of mechanical and electrical knowledge is showing here a little.

What does sponsorship of racing events have to do with quality of engineering, product success, or marketing transparency? I appreciate the straw man though, I needed one for my corn field.

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

That's N54 pricing but N55 shows $1999 less 15% = $1699. Life is good for N54 owners... =)

http://dinancars.com/product/d900-31...ries&mid=1159/

oh Wow. I didn't realize there was a price difference. Yeah, life is good

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by Freon

No credentials?!?! Hahahahaha... Pot, meet kettle. There actually *are* engineers on this board. Perhaps not specifically automotive, but MEs, EEs, etc. Just because we don't work for BMW, Dinan, or Cobb ourselves doesn't mean we can't understand what it is we are buying.

I've tuned cars and hacked ECUs for *years*. What have you done? Something tells me you have little to no idea how tuning technology works yourself. Your opinion is not to be respected on this subject if you can't argue the points. You're painting with an awfully large brush. Can you back it up with knowledge?

You need to do your homework at least on Cobb. They've been in the tuning business for over a decade and are very well respected in the industry. They've got some of the best technology for tuning cars with the Access Port. Most other competitors are mail-in solutions, which is horrible from a usability perspective. Personally I don't have a lot of respect for Vishnu (he seems to fumble in and out of markets with poor service). Everyone seems to be extremely happy with their JB products, and they've been around for many years showing results, so I think you're also wrong there.

Your post shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology here. If you're going to criticize some of these vendors, you need to stick your neck out and specifically say what they do wrong and why they suck, and show how Dinan is better. I don't think you can because you are simply ignorant and speaking well outside your areas of knowledge and expertise.

If you want to pay for "feel good" product, that's what Dinan is. They market things like "heritage" and underwriting of warranties, not performance and technology.

You're talking out of both sides here a bit. I agree that you need to show specifics for why you bash a specific tune, (i.e. what are they doing wrong?) but the same applies to bashing Dinan. Why are you bashing Dinan? Just saying they are a more pricey option is not enough justification. Why are they a "feel good" tune? Do you have their reliability reports after their stress testing to back that claim up? Do you have any test data from Dinan at all? Do you know what their enigneeirng test procedures entail and what they test for?

Just because their peak WHP is lower than other tunes isn't enough to say its inferior. Area under the curve comes into play and how smooth the power comes on is also important.

FWIW, This is coming from an Electrical Engineer/Optical Engineer who is now a program engineering manager for MDA programs. I understand long term reliability and the value of good engineering. I did my research and spoke with their engineers. I went with Dinan.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by cbl117

You're talking out of both sides here a bit. I agree that you need to show specifics for why you bash a specific tune, (i.e. what are they doing wrong?) but the same applies to bashing Dinan. Why are you bashing Dinan? Just saying they are a more pricey option is not enough justification. Why are they a "feel good" tune?

They are selling a very low power tune, well under the capability of the car, and charging a big premium for it. Same goes for most of their products (exhausts, etc) from what I can tell.

I'm not making any empirical claims beyond they cost a lot more than competitive products and produce lower power. I don't think those are statements that are in dispute.

They're slapping a warranty on it to make you "feel good" about it, and producing videos about "heritage" and whatnot that has very little to do with the performance of the product. These are often the "evidence" brought forth when people criticize the company or their products, and in my eyes they're largely irrelevant when examining the products.

Do you have their reliability reports after their stress testing to back that claim up? Do you have any test data from Dinan at all? Do you know what their enigneeirng test procedures entail and what they test for?

The burden of proof is on you or Dinan, not me, for the claims you're not-so-cleverly alluding to here. Referencing the unknown then claiming the fact we don't have the data is supportive of your position is a straight up fallacious argument. I'm sure you know better, too, which is unfortunate.

I'm unsure which "claim" of mine you're even referencing. That mail-in tunes are worse from a usability perspective than a user-controlled system that you can resell? That JB is respected and been around for years? That I don't care for Vishnu (a clearly subjective claim)? That Dinan is a "feel good" product (another subjective claim)? I'm happy to discuss those items if you can specifically point out what it is you think I'm claiming that requires further evidence, or talk about why I hold certain subjective opinions.

Just because their peak WHP is lower than other tunes isn't enough to say its inferior. Area under the curve comes into play and how smooth the power comes on is also important.

I assure you, area under the curve of competitive products like the Cobb or JB will demolish the Dinan tune. Do you dispute that? Is there a particular combination of Dinan parts that produces a better area under the curve than competitors?

I suspect holding back on the tune is just a conscious decision on Dinan's part, possibly in association with their underwriting of the warranty. The question is why you would buy their product rather than just run the most conservative map of a competing product, and save a bunch of money, and in the case of Cobb or JB benefit from a resellable product with map switching, etc. I'm really challenged to see the desire for this.

FWIW, This is coming from an Electrical Engineer/Optical Engineer who is now a program engineering manager for MDA programs. I understand long term reliability and the value of good engineering. I did my research and spoke with their engineers. I went with Dinan.

You could have saved yourself money just buying a Cobb or JB and setting it to a more conservative map if you were worried about long term reliability. There's only so much the tunes really end up doing to the operation of the engine. No magic tune is going to exceed the mechanical abilities of the turbos to spool faster. There's only so much you can do with ignition timing, fueling, cam timing, etc. to find that optimal operation. You seem to think Dinan has some special sauce in that respect, I guess? Unsure exactly...

I'd love for Dinan (or you) to actually publicly make whatever objective claims of reliability you allude to so it can be debated. If they're not making the claims publicly, they cannot be examined or criticized. Everything about my experiences with actually tuning and hacking ECUs, and the (lack of) evidence being presented here says Dinan is in no better position to, nor actually producing, a superior product than another company with a proven history and producing a reflash tune, like Cobb (possibly GIAC or others). (side note, It seems the JB actually does very well as well, and has been extremely successful for many, many years, though I think ultimately a reflash is better engineering due to the power of the factory ECU). Dinan just has a difference marketing angle with a less aggressive tune and warranty, and pretty videos where you see some old guy talking about his love for BMW so you can get the warm and fuzzies.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Freon

I suspect holding back on the tune is just a conscious decision on Dinan's part, possibly in association with their underwriting of the warranty.

Well, considering they underwrite a competing warranty to match the BMW factory 4 year, which subsequently voids eligibility for any extensions, it's all about the warranty. Warranty sales are a money game. This fact is well known.

So Dinan codes a bin file that is slightly more powerful than stock but absurdly well within the mechanical capabilities of the car, flashes once at a premium, and makes a killing.

Ultimately the bean counters at Dinan have determined what the "acceptable payout" is for their warranty, and even one more failure is excessive. This number, whatever that is, determines the level of the tune and the price. I'm no economist but it seems like a simple enough example of Min/Max calculus to me.

They then use their excellent marketing division to make everyone happy about it.

[ragingpanda]

To all the Dinan nutswingers on this thread...

My condolences.

[darkrom]

You will never find an actual technical calm and to the point piece of evidence of ANYTHING dinan flashes do better than the competition. That is generally true of their other products as well.

The reason you won't see these technical details, is because they do not exist.

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by Freon

They are selling a very low power tune, well under the capability of the car, and charging a big premium for it. Same goes for most of their products (exhausts, etc) from what I can tell.

How do you specifically know the capabilities of the N54 engine? Where is your supporting data other than online forums? Are you part of BMW engineering and know the specific reliability limits? If not, then I don't think your statment holds any clout and is meaningless. Show me JB is closer to the reliability limits and not exceeding them and Dinan is well below the same rating.

Originally Posted by Freon

I'm not making any empirical claims beyond they cost a lot more than competitive products and produce lower power. I don't think those are statements that are in dispute.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Freon

They're slapping a warranty on it to make you "feel good" about it, and producing videos about "heritage" and whatnot that has very little to do with the performance of the product. These are often the "evidence" brought forth when people criticize the company or their products, and in my eyes they're largely irrelevant when examining the products.
The burden of proof is on you or Dinan, not me, for the claims you're not-so-cleverly alluding to here. Referencing the unknown then claiming the fact we don't have the data is supportive of your position is a straight up fallacious argument. I'm sure you know better, too, which is unfortunate..

Of course I don't have Dinan's engineering reports, and I'm sure you don't either as they are probably proprietary. Do you have BMS's or Cobb's reliability testing results? If not, then you're talking out both sides again. You don't have any additional data to support your side of the argument other than dyno plots showing JB and cobb make more power than Dinan (in some maps). But where is your data that the reliablity has not been compromised using JB or Cobb? Are you basing your data on the fact that the motors haven't blown up yet in the forums? Not exactly compelling evidence that I'm willing to put 50k on the line for.

Originally Posted by Freon

I'm unsure which "claim" of mine you're even referencing. That mail-in tunes are worse from a usability perspective than a user-controlled system that you can resell? That JB is respected and been around for years? That I don't care for Vishnu (a clearly subjective claim)? That Dinan is a "feel good" product (another subjective claim)? I'm happy to discuss those items if you can specifically point out what it is you think I'm claiming that requires further evidence, or talk about why I hold certain subjective opinions.
I assure you, area under the curve of competitive products like the Cobb or JB will demolish the Dinan tune. Do you dispute that? Is there a particular combination of Dinan parts that produces a better area under the curve than competitors?.

Yes, I do dispute that. I've seen dynos where the curve is all over the place and not stable for JB and Cobb. I've heard claims from people on this forum that they don't like the surge feeling of power being delivered quickly and unpredictably. I'm not aware of any magic assortment of parts that give a dinan tune a broader curve, but I'm using a mixture of BMS, berk, BMW and dinan parts and my dyno curve was smooth and broad.

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by darkrom

You will never find an actual technical calm and to the point piece of evidence of ANYTHING dinan flashes do better than the competition. That is generally true of their other products as well.

The reason you won't see these technical details, is because they do not exist.

Dinan provides the performance gains, albeit in BHP, for their products. Its up to the consumer to be educated enough to understand what that means compared to competative products. I never claimed Dinan was better than any other tune. Thats your fanboy, dinan hate talk again...which, by the way, you do in every dinan thread. Its so bad that I chuckle when I find out its you posting.

What technical details are you talking about? Be more specific. In some cases sharing technical details would be giving away trade secrets and/or proprietary information. Does BMS or Cobb release these "technical details" you speak of?

[ShocknAwe]

Let's be honest here. Dinan is exceeding the restrictions imposed by BMW themselves. All this squibbling over what is more reliable is horseshit. Lower power is going to be more reliable, higher power is going to be less reliable. End of story. How much so? No one knows. You know where Dinan falls on that spectrum. Is that a bad thing? Not if that's what you want. Dinan makes a very good range of products.

You make reference to folks not liking the lumpy/surgey power that the JB provides or the dyno graphs being uneven. This is "forum wisdom" as you say. Heed your own criticism please. As it is there are many variables that account for all of what you brought up. Most uneven idle or power surge is caused by deficiencies in spark or fuel, eg. plugs, coils, and injectors. All common fail items for our cars, regardless of tune or even stock programming.

Scientifically preferred large pool double blind testing is not done with cars and modifications. Aftermarket manufacturers do not perform long term reliability testing like automotive manufacturers do. No one has the test data from aftermarket manufacturers and only have the release data and any other communications from the staff. BMS and Cobb both make good use of beta test feedback. Dinan does not. This is both a pro and a con. With thousands of participants their data collection pool is much greater than that of the latter. The downside being that if you participate in a beta test, you put your hardware on the line, even if it is always a minor risk due to internal testing ironing out the catestrophic issues.

What we know based on lack of data available:
Reliability of any tune/unit is undetermined
R&D differences between options is undetermined
No one knows the power capability of the N54/N55
No one knows the fail point of internal components of the N54/N55
Injector failure is unrelated to software
Coil pack failure is unrelated to software
HPFP failure is unrelated to software
Turbo failure is unrelated to software (except in extreme, see 20+ continuous psi conditions)

I may have missed some of our undeniable truths here.

What does it mean? Dinan is better only on the point where it comes with a warranty. Sorry, that's it. Nothing else can be concluded from the available information.

[cbl117]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Let's be honest here. Dinan is exceeding the restrictions imposed by BMW themselves. All this squibbling over what is more reliable is horseshit. Lower power is going to be more reliable, higher power is going to be less reliable. End of story. How much so? No one knows. You know where Dinan falls on that spectrum. Is that a bad thing? Not if that's what you want. Dinan makes a very good range of products.

You make reference to folks not liking the lumpy/surgey power that the JB provides or the dyno graphs being uneven. This is "forum wisdom" as you say. Heed your own criticism please. As it is there are many variables that account for all of what you brought up. Most uneven idle or power surge is caused by deficiencies in spark or fuel, eg. plugs, coils, and injectors. All common fail items for our cars, regardless of tune or even stock programming.

Scientifically preferred large pool double blind testing is not done with cars and modifications. Aftermarket manufacturers do not perform long term reliability testing like automotive manufacturers do. No one has the test data from aftermarket manufacturers and only have the release data and any other communications from the staff. BMS and Cobb both make good use of beta test feedback. Dinan does not. This is both a pro and a con. With thousands of participants their data collection pool is much greater than that of the latter. The downside being that if you participate in a beta test, you put your hardware on the line, even if it is always a minor risk due to internal testing ironing out the catestrophic issues.

What we know based on lack of data available:
Reliability of any tune/unit is undetermined
R&D differences between options is undetermined
No one knows the power capability of the N54/N55
No one knows the fail point of internal components of the N54/N55
Injector failure is unrelated to software
Coil pack failure is unrelated to software
HPFP failure is unrelated to software
Turbo failure is unrelated to software (except in extreme, see 20+ continuous psi conditions)

I may have missed some of our undeniable truths here.

What does it mean? Dinan is better only on the point where it comes with a warranty. Sorry, that's it. Nothing else can be concluded from the available information.

I appreciate you sharing some of the factual data available from forum wisdom. I agree with you.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by cbl117

I appreciate you sharing some of the factual data available from "forum wisdom". Don't get butt hurt because in your mind I claimed Dinan was better. I never claimed that.

Nothing to be "butt hurt" over. Your claims and inferences are near entirely unsubstantiated, please try to be objective. You overshared earlier and said you are an engineer so that should be simple for you.