BMW M1 to be unleashed by M division! (OFFICIAL confirmation from M boss)

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RobMason

If the M version is only $50k, it will be a best seller. The original 1988 E30 M3 only had 197 HP, only 29 HP more than the E30 325i @ 168 HP. This was a 17% increase. The price was not much more than a highly optioned 325i. I don't remember how much.

At 345 hp, the hp rating of the M1 would be 15% more than the 135i. The E30 M3 is still revered as the best M3 by many. And that is because of the balance, the braking, the improved feel of the car over the 325i. Not because of its overall acceleration, nor top speed. I experienced this first hand, having gone from a modified '85 E30 "grey market" 325i to the '88 M3. If BMW can transform the 135i into a similar M version, at only $50k, you better be prepared to fork out dealer markup money to get one early on.

Times have changed, and with 345hp it's not going to compete. I won't have to worry about the markups, because if that's as much power as it's going to have I'll be driving a Vette instead.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by hawc

By what? Corvettes? Vipers?

.

Yes, and Mustangs and Camaros.

Originally Posted by hawc

I think we forget just how much 345hp is in an era of 1000hp hypercars like the Bugatti.

We don't forget at all. Many of us are driving 135s with WELL over 345Hp. Part of the reasoning behind buying the M car is so you don't have to crank the power level up and worry about warranty issues.

If you guys think it's good value for money at 345Hp, by all means jump on it. I'll likely take my money elsewhere though.

[Spartikus]

Jeremy, I'm shocked man. I lurk more than I post and I find you to make the most sense around here. I have two questions.

1.) Do you believe a stock 135i really produces 300 crank hp?

2.) Why dont u think BMW would underrate this engine?

Yes, all of us are driving 135i's with more than 340hp but I dont find it to be that related. A 340hp 135i from BMW and one chipped to that will be different. I'll bet big money the BMW one will be faster. People were saying the same thing in terms of the M3's lowly hp and dismal torque. It can still 'hang' with cars that out match its hp and severely out torque it.

Before you get all fired up wait to see the numbers on the Z4si. From what I hear we'll be quite shocked at what the DCT + more BMW tuning can do. Yes, I know it has a different powerplant than the 1 will be. But I'm waiting to see the numbers b/c the M1 will definitely be lighter, more powerful, and more focused.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

At 345Hp and $50k, I'll take a pass. It's going to get blown off the road. This car won't be much lighter than a 135i, (150lbs at best) and I don't really see why they'd bother if that's all they're going to do.

What do you mean by "blown off the road" ..? Do Mustangs and Camaros have the tranny's that BMW do?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Jeremy, I'm shocked man. I lurk more than I post and I find you to make the most sense around here. I have two questions.

1.) Do you believe a stock 135i really produces 300 crank hp?

2.) Why dont u think BMW would underrate this engine?

Yes, all of us are driving 135i's with more than 340hp but I dont find it to be that related. A 340hp 135i from BMW and one chipped to that will be different. I'll bet big money the BMW one will be faster. People were saying the same thing in terms of the M3's lowly hp and dismal torque. It can still 'hang' with cars that out match its hp and severely out torque it.

Before you get all fired up wait to see the numbers on the Z4si. From what I hear we'll be quite shocked at what the DCT + more BMW tuning can do. Yes, I know it has a different powerplant than the 1 will be. But I'm waiting to see the numbers b/c the M1 will definitely be lighter, more powerful, and more focused.

I think some of the hesitation is from the simple fact that people on these boards have been getting 375 HP at the wheels pretty easily with the N54and the purported numbers for the M1 do not seem to dazzle...Is 345 HP a lot? Well....yes, but that really depends on what you compare it to. The most common comparison right up front for the M1 will be with tuned 135s--that is just how it will be....my main fear is that the M1 will be detuned, and purposely not be as good as it could be--I really hope they do it justice....I think that is what Jeremy is saying....

I have said many times that I would rather have BMW engineers give me something that I don't want to mess with right out of the box....but others like to go the tuning route. At the end of the day, I think the car will be a great choice in the BMW lineup, which at the end of the day is a good thing for all of us.....choices are good......

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I think some of the hesitation is from the simple fact that people on these boards have been getting 375 HP at the wheels pretty easily with the N54and the purported numbers for the M1 do not seem to dazzle...Is 345 HP a lot? Well....yes, but that really depends on what you compare it to. The most common comparison right up front for the M1 will be with tuned 135s--that is just how it will be....my main fear is that the M1 will be detuned, and purposely not be as good as it could be--I really hope they do it justice....I think that is what Jeremy is saying....

I have said many times that I would rather have BMW engineers give me something that I don't want to mess with right out of the box....but others like to go the tuning route. At the end of the day, I think the car will be a great choice in the BMW lineup, which at the end of the day is a good thing for all of us.....choices are good......

I understand what you're saying but I dont think fears of them "detuning" this car are substantiated yet. It's going to be an M car. It will perform like one. Look at how ridiculously fast those M-SUV's are. BMW wasn't afraid that it would match or beat a V10 M5 in the straights. It will at least match the current M3 IMO. Why? Because BMW wont allow the M3 to sit idle for very long. It's direct competition look to be committed in knocking it off its mantle.

[Jaguar66]

!

[RPM90]

Here we go again with just HP numbers talk.
The M has always been about overall balance in power AND handling.
It's about a package that belies simply 1 large number be it HP, skid pad, braking.
I've always thought of the M cars as taking what BMW makes and then upping that overall vehicle to the next, but more complete package.

350hp doesn't sound like much, but with 2 twin scrolls and advanced IC's, this engine will perform even when pushed hard on hot days, especially on a track. Plus, with 2-twin scrolls, the overall power curve should prove to be full and broad.
Plus, I'm sure there will be a racing tuned DCT with 7 speeds for lightening quick power on tap for what ever one may need.

But, we'll just have to wait and see how good this M will be when BMW unleash it on enthusiast world.

My main concern is that BMW fix the next 1 series suspension. The current TT engine is sweet, but I'm all for getting a taste of a single T-scroll at work. My main concern still is fixing the suspension. The non M- 1 needs a much better sorted suspension to stop the body roll, improve the ride, and settle the chassis more. BMW failed in the current version, which feels classically under sprung and over damped that's usually the problem with typical American made sport suspensions.
For me, I'm more concerned the BMW get the next 1 right as it's the car the majority will be buying. The M1 or 1M or whatever it'll be called will have it's own challenges.

BTW, I'm not so sure an M version should come before a new body and/or chassis are introduced. Still, the picts do look good. The wide body treatment looks interesting, but not quite for an M version. What's up with the bulge in the hood though in the artist rendering? What makes the artist think it's even needed?
The N55 should be able to handle a second a Tscroll turbo without a bulge needed. If you're going to put one there then maybe have it be functional or open for some air intake function. But, it's just a guess rendering, as stated.
I hope it has a proper dual exhaust though.

[Robert]

I agree with jeremy and rpm that there's too much preoccupation on horse power. The existing 135i has plenty of horse power and more is easily within reach. The M version needs to shed weight and lots of it in my opinion.

The handling will be fine. If they can make x5M corner flat they can make a 1 series do so as well. But to do so they need beefier components which will add more weight and more stress on the brakes, causing early overheating and such. More weight also requires more hp and bigger engine which also adds even more weight.

So much more satisfying to stay with a ZR1 with only 300hp than to say I have 400hp, that use to be the philosophy of mustang and camaro yet still fall short of an E46 M3.

[ORIGIN M.]

Can somebody photo shop that sucker into some other color[s] and add SL trim. Thanks!

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

What do you mean by "blown of the road" ..? Do Mustangs and Camaros have the tranny's that BMW do?

Actually they're better in my experience so far. You just can't make a fast 1-2 shift in my car without it grinding like hell. I could make the same shift with the T56 in my GTO without ever taking my right foot off the floor if I wanted to.

But that's beside the point. The current Mustang is over 400Hp and weighs about 3500lbs. It's already been seen keeping up with the M3 on road courses, and will no doubt run well into the 12s in the 1/4 mile, and that's for less than $35k well optioned. GM is going to drop the LSA engine out of the CTS-V into the Camaro, and that's going to be a 560Hp monster for less than $50k.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love the way BMWs feel, and I know full well there's more to an M car than just HP. Where I'm coming from here is that 345 isn't going to be enough for me, and I'm not going to tune another turbocharged BMW. It's just too expensive if you break something. A long block for these cars is over $15k, and that's what you'll likely need if you blow a turbo.

So at the end of the day, if the M1 is going to get 350Hp, I'm going to be driving something else because for the same money spent, I'll be able to go faster.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Jeremy, I'm shocked man. I lurk more than I post and I find you to make the most sense around here. I have two questions.

1.) Do you believe a stock 135i really produces 300 crank hp?

2.) Why dont u think BMW would underrate this engine?

Yes, all of us are driving 135i's with more than 340hp but I dont find it to be that related. A 340hp 135i from BMW and one chipped to that will be different. I'll bet big money the BMW one will be faster. People were saying the same thing in terms of the M3's lowly hp and dismal torque. It can still 'hang' with cars that out match its hp and severely out torque it.

Before you get all fired up wait to see the numbers on the Z4si. From what I hear we'll be quite shocked at what the DCT + more BMW tuning can do. Yes, I know it has a different powerplant than the 1 will be. But I'm waiting to see the numbers b/c the M1 will definitely be lighter, more powerful, and more focused.

I've honestly never subscribed to the whole "under-rated" theory to be honest. BMW is using the SAE standard with these cars, and they're verified by a 3rd party.

I don't trust chassis dyno numbers, loss assumptions, and correction factors when it comes to calculating actual crank HP.

Given the flat torque curve, gearing, and the weight of the car, I'd say it's trapping ri should be for something with 300hp.


The new transmissions are certainly fast, and I wouldn't mind owning one some day, but I'm afraid of them at this point. People who jumped on the SMG cars got screwed on resale because it wasn't well recieved, and I think I'd just stick with a manual because of that.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Actually they're better in my experience so far. You just can't make a fast 1-2 shift in my car without it grinding like hell. I could make the same shift with the T56 in my GTO without ever taking my right foot off the floor if I wanted to.

But that's beside the point. The current Mustang is over 400Hp and weighs about 3500lbs. It's already been seen keeping up with the M3 on road courses, and will no doubt run well into the 12s in the 1/4 mile, and that's for less than $35k well optioned. GM is going to drop the LSA engine out of the CTS-V into the Camaro, and that's going to be a 560Hp monster for less than $50k.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love the way BMWs feel, and I know full well there's more to an M car than just HP. Where I'm coming from here is that 345 isn't going to be enough for me, and I'm not going to tune another turbocharged BMW. It's just too expensive if you break something. A long block for these cars is over $15k, and that's what you'll likely need if you blow a turbo.

So at the end of the day, if the M1 is going to get 350Hp, I'm going to be driving something else because for the same money spent, I'll be able to go faster.

Spoken like a true GOAT owner. It's amazing how much you talk about your knowledge of cars, but obviously don't get what M cars are about. Yeah, the GTO and other American cars are easy to mod and got fast in a straight line, sans the Vette. I'm sure you have read the reviews on the M3. It is considered by many experts that make a living at driving cars to be the best sports sedan in the world. BMW doesn't care about making cars that go fast in a straight line at a dragstrip. Have you auto-x any cars? If so, how many American cars have you seen there besides the Vette, Ford GT or the occasional Viper? That's because BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc. design cars to handle better and don't put a huge emphasis on hp's. Horsepower is not king at the track.

And why is everyone debating this mythical 345hp? It's speculation until the numbers come out. This will be a M car. Do you think BMW will tarnish that reputation with a car that doesn't live up to it's heritage?

Now, I know that you'll come back with the same passive aggressive I'm smarter than you comments like you always do. Don't care.

[gse748]

So many of you seem to be missing the point. An M car isn't about a hp number.
what the 135i needs most is more rubber on the road, particularly on the front. Fitting 3-ser parts under the 1-ser body meant the front tyres are too narrow and overheat too quickly, causing it to understeer. The M version will address that.
The 135i already has great mass centralisation, but a carbon roof will help lower the CofG to improve the handling further, and with more rubber, plus electronic damping, the M1 should handle like a racecar.
Thsoe of you who find the current 135i too stiff should forget this one. you can't increase performance and stability without increasing ride stiffness. You should be able to reduce the slightly choppy ride you get on some surfaces if the fit EDC.
the power of tghe M1 will never be 400hp despite what you may wish for. It can't cannibalise M3 sales. In the same way the M3 can't eat into M5 sales. Besides, a quick-spooling 345hp motor with more torque than an M3 will make this car feel like a rocket.
And in answer to the engine power ratings, BMW does certify its engines conservatively. So individual engines are often more powerful than the official published figures. This is a pleasant bonus for owners who run-in their engines carefully and use them properly. Once bedded-in nicely, many BMW engines do exceed the published figures. Having dynoed many BMW engines, I've seen it with my own eyes. As a result, the cars are often faster than the published figures as well. A 135i we tested ran 0-60mph in under 5sec repeatedly.
the 135i is a phenomenal car with a number of shortfalls. the M1 should address most of these, creating a great driver's car. It won't be an M3-beater. Neither will it be the cheapest on the market, but it will be both the market leader and a trend-setter. If you simply want a cheap car, by a G37. It will remind you everyday why a BMW costs more.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Actually they're better in my experience so far. You just can't make a fast 1-2 shift in my car without it grinding like hell. I could make the same shift with the T56 in my GTO without ever taking my right foot off the floor if I wanted to.

But that's beside the point. The current Mustang is over 400Hp and weighs about 3500lbs. It's already been seen keeping up with the M3 on road courses, and will no doubt run well into the 12s in the 1/4 mile, and that's for less than $35k well optioned. GM is going to drop the LSA engine out of the CTS-V into the Camaro, and that's going to be a 560Hp monster for less than $50k.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love the way BMWs feel, and I know full well there's more to an M car than just HP. Where I'm coming from here is that 345 isn't going to be enough for me, and I'm not going to tune another turbocharged BMW. It's just too expensive if you break something. A long block for these cars is over $15k, and that's what you'll likely need if you blow a turbo.

So at the end of the day, if the M1 is going to get 350Hp, I'm going to be driving something else because for the same money spent, I'll be able to go faster.

I've already owned ZR1 and a Mustang.. I don't care about 1/4 mile time slips. I am not one who drags cars, I am a car enthusiast who requires the car to be an extension of my being. Once you drive a well balanced BMW, nothing else matters... save Porsche.

If you believe a great car, is made better by adding horsepower, then you are on the wrong boards bro...


Secondly, those cars are the exact opposite of what I am looking for; efficiency. A car like an //M1 is well built, light and lasts, yet get excellent fuel efficiency as well. Mustang? (bigger engine, heavier car..?)

Honestly, I don't care what the horsepower is going to be, I am buying one. It's odd you are so hung up on that HP figure.

I shop handling first, then power-to-weight..

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

I've already owned ZR1 and a Mustang.. I don't care about 1/4 mile time slips. I am not a hillbilly who drags cars, ..

I AM a hillbilly who drags cars, and if you don't like it, I couldn't care less what you think....bro.

The current Mustang is lighter than an M3, and will run with it on a road course. The Camaro weighs about the same as the M3, and matched its time on The Ring for about $25k less money, and STILL get better gas mileage. What exactly is efficent about an M3?!

Now why don't you go ahead and throw around some more stereotypes just to make certain everyone here knows exactly where you stand, and if you'd like to compare IQs, or sit down for a game of chess sometime, this "hillbilly" would be more than happy to throw a couple of hundred bucks on it to make it interesting.

It's pretty damn comical that you get all butt hurt and feel the need to call someone else "stupid" for saying the car isn't going to be fast enough to fit their needs. I didn't tell you not to buy it, or say it's a bad car. I said VERY CLEARLY that if it's going to hit the showrooms with 345Hp that it wasn't going to be fast enough to suit MY needs. It would be a step backwards from what I'm driving now. Is that too complicated for you to grasp? I've got cousings with 11 toes that wouldn't have any problem understanding that.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I AM a hillbilly who drags cars, and if you don't like it, I couldn't care less what you think....bro.

The current Mustang is lighter than an M3, and will run with it on a road course. The Camaro weighs about the same as the M3, and matched its time on The Ring for about $25k less money, and STILL get better gas mileage. What exactly is efficent about an M3?!

Now why don't you go ahead and throw around some more stereotypes just to make certain everyone here knows exactly where you stand, and if you'd like to compare IQs, or sit down for a game of chess sometime, this "hillbilly" would be more than happy to throw a couple of hundred bucks on it to make it interesting.

It's pretty damn comical that you get all butt hurt and feel the need to call someone else "stupid" for saying the car isn't going to be fast enough to fit their needs. I didn't tell you not to buy it, or say it's a bad car. I said VERY CLEARLY that if it's going to hit the showrooms with 345Hp that it wasn't going to be fast enough to suit MY needs. It would be a step backwards from what I'm driving now. Is that too complicated for you to grasp? I've got cousings with 11 toes that wouldn't have any problem understanding that.

Bro, a mustang will not run with a M3, not even close! If you are looking for DRAG RACING, then BMW is not what you are looking for, because BMW is about BALANCE and handling. Yet, if you want, they do make quick cars. Anyone here will tell you that your needs are better served elsewhere..

But your argument is flawed anyways, because you equate more horsepower as faster. You can also LIGHTEN up a car, make it more efficient and still make it faster using the same HP. You simply don't consider these highly sought after virtues and are fixed on just HP..?

OK...
but it's funny that you know your segment, but don't buy into it.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Bro, a mustang will not run with a M3, not even close! If you are looking for DRAG RACING, then BMW is not what you are looking for, because BMW is about BALANCE and handling. Yet, if you want, they do make quick cars. Anyone here will tell you that your needs are better served elsewhere..

But your argument is flawed anyways, because you equate more horsepower as faster. You can also LIGHTEN up a car, make it more efficient and still make it faster using the same HP. You simply don't consider these highly sought after virtues and are fixed on just HP..?

OK...
but it's funny that you know your segment, but don't buy into it.

The new Mustang with the track pack has been seen turning similar lap times as the M3. It's got more power and weighs less. An M3 isn't a lightweight by any stretch of the imagination, and the M1 won't be much lighter than the 135i, likely not even 100lbs.

If you were capable of reading, I think "my needs are better suited elsewere" was EXACTLY what I said in my earlier post, but that didn't prevent you from getting all butthurt about it and throwing around insults like a child.

The bottom line is, if the M1 is released with 345hp, it's going to get outran on the drag strip AND the road courses by other cars in it's price range, and I'll buy one of those, likely the Corvette.

[hawc]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Bro, if you are looking for DRAG RACING, then BMW is not what you are looking for, because BMW is about BALANCE and handling. Anyone here will tell you that your needs are better served elsewhere.

Quoted for Truth!

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by hawc

Quoted for Truth!

Oh give it a rest.. I CLEARLY stated LAP TIMES several times in my earlier posts, you just chose to ignore it.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to grasp the fact that running a car through the 1/4 mile is the most accurate way to determine how fast it accellerate under controlled conditions for the purposes of comparisions.


Accelleration is a component of lap times you know!

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Oh give it a rest.. I CLEARLY stated LAP TIMES several times in my earlier posts, you just chose to ignore it.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to grasp the fact that running a car through the 1/4 mile is the most accurate way to determine how fast it accellerate under controlled conditions for the purposes of comparisions.


Accelleration is a component of lap times you know!

Wow... you tend to float all over the place and change your mind often. I get it now, this thread and your comments aren't about the BMW M1... they are about you!

And that if BMW claims 345 HP, you've said so yourself, you can't handle such a low number, that no matter what, Jeremy simply won't buy the car, because he can't take the number 3 4 5...

OK..




Then there is no point is discussing anything with you.. or even mentioning handling, balance or any other aspect of a car's performance. Because, as you said yourself you don't care, your only focus is 3 4 5..

Coincidentally, I love how you skew the argument, suggesting the M1 will only be 100lbs lighter,etc... , when BMW has suggested otherwise. Everyone but you seems to know that horsepower to weight is the tell-tale of performance, which you are just unwilling to admit, or cannot understand.

But none of that matters to you, because 3 4 5...

[bluejaypanther]

Nurburgring Lap Times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times

E92 M3: 8:05
E46 M3: 8:22

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...a-hot-lap.html

Camaro SS: 8:20


Very nice, but I knew the "same time around nurburgring for $$$ less" sounded a bit fishy. The SS is comparable to the E46 M3, but those are... about the same price.

Bottom line, there's no way that $20K+ price gap between two cars that are built for performance first doesn't make a difference on the track. German, American, doesn't matter.

If someone has a source for the (stock) Camaro SS doing a better lap, I would love to see it. As it stands, it's a shade faster than the 135i, but a tier below the M3.

Is there a ring time for the M1 yet?