Will you get the automatic or manual tranny?

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Super post. And your point is well made regarding professional motorsports. There's no doubt that a clutch is more work (sometimes a lot more) and that the benefits are questionable at best. Frankly, if I was racing for a living I would dump the clutch, too. But in a day and age were efficiency is all the rage, it's kind of nice to get back to basics and that's what a MT provides to me.

I agree, that was a very good post that illustrated the point very artfully.

The truth is, though, you really wouldnt want to do many of those cluthless shifts in the Honda, thus making the clutch a major part of the action if you were to drive the car for longevity.

And also, there is a difference between the actual physical action of shifting a MT and an AT. In the AT you do not have to "find" the gear like in a MT, you just hit a stick a single uniform direction.

To me, the MT will always provide a more engaged driving experience :iono:.

[Chibana]

I agree with both the last posts. I personally find shifting a fully manual transmission more fun, but the fact is, my wife will have to be able to drive this third car, so that is out. Sequential, auto-shifting manuals are excellent transmissions, and I'll be fine with one, as long as it proves to be good for performance. I'm not sure the SMG qualifies for that, but the SST on the Evo X is looking rather promising.

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Frankly, if I was racing for a living I would dump the clutch, too.

Pun intended? :biggrin:

Originally Posted by ibeam81

But in a day and age were efficiency is all the rage, it's kind of nice to get back to basics and that's what a MT provides to me.

Now this is a point I understand and concede, too. "Back to basics" is what kept me waiting until a likely Summer '08 delivery on this car, rather than buying an E90 328i this past Spring. I'm tired of driving around the truck that I bought for household chores when we became homeowners. I want to get back to a simple, fun, sporting drive. But now I'm old enough that substance matters to me, too. And it appears the 1er is a car that has both sport and substance in spades.

I fully understand what you're saying. The MT at least feels like it "belongs" in the 1er. I would never say that about the E90.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by jrsites

The last manual tranny car I had was a Civic Si and I used to shift without using the clutch all the time just because it was a fun challenge to see how quickly I could find the syncro's sweet spot.

Oh wow.. I know it's doable, but you did clutchless shift on your daily driver "all the time"? I don't know if I should envy your skill, or feel sorry for your Si.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Oh wow.. I know it's doable, but you did clutchless shift on your daily driver "all the time"? I don't know if I should envy your skill, or feel sorry for your Si.

Probably both. :wink:

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Oh wow.. I know it's doable, but you did clutchless shift on your daily driver "all the time"? I don't know if I should envy your skill, or feel sorry for your Si.

:biggrin:

Guilty as charged. That was hyperbole. "All the time" means "a couple times a day", when I was bored. Or trying to show off.

Of the two, you should feel more sorry for the tranny. The car was stolen right out of our garage (while we were home!), so I'll never know how long the box would've lasted.

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by LonghornTX

In the AT you do not have to "find" the gear like in a MT, you just hit a stick a single uniform direction.

I get that. I think what's obvious here is that "engaging driving experience" is a personal, subjective thing.

I cut my teeth on the glory days of CART. At the tender age of 13 I was in the motor home infield at Portland Intenational Raceway when Al Unser, Jr. won his first career race. That's when my interest in motorsports was born.

Even then, 23 years ago, when they showed an in-car camera, you saw the driver nudging a stubbly little lever back and forth when "shifting". I just couldn't figure out how they could change gears without using the clutch and by just moving a stick backwards and forwards as they braked hard at the end of a stretch or accelerated out of a corner.

Ever since then, MY personal sports car dream was to someday have a car that I could ratchet through the gears in the exact same way. For years I have looked forward to bwarrrr-bwarrrr-bwarrring down through the gears as quickly as I can punch the palm of my hand against the gear selector, just like those CART drivers I began watching 20 some-odd years ago.

After a bunch of teases in the form of the horrible "manumatics" that so many manufacturers have put in cars over the last 5 years or so, these new trannies from BMW finally give me that "personal open-wheel racer" experience I've wanted for so long.

[Robert]

Will DSG be available at launch? If DSG is an option then it might muddle my decision but if not I get manual. I am not waiting for DSG either. The next 8 month is going to be a long wait.

[kindtree]

I guess the deciding factors for me will be cost and weight. Sure, the differences in both may be negligible, but I have to have some sort of reasoning to base my choice on, right?

[aesthetect]

my first car was an automatic integra. 4 cylinders and 4 speeds that you dont control when they get switched between has tainted (somewhat unfairly) automatics as far as what i want to be in control of for the rest of my life. yeah, paddle shifted or aggresively designed automatics would probably cut lap times when it comes down to it.. but the bottom line is that while im driving around town, in time, im going to just leave it in auto and be lazy and push on the gas.. its just not fun. and its something nobody can describe in words. its the rawness. its the opposite of the "softness" that plagues too many cars today and is the reason we're excited for the 1er - what the 3series of today should be, a driver's car and it creates a closeness with the car and the road when you are in total control. and honestly the fact that the 1 series will have a true manual even available is a big attraction to me, too many of the other cars i would be considering wont even have it available (cough, lexus).

even though to be honest, with hybrids and electric technology and intelligent engine/powertrain management and control from the ECU we're undoubtedly heading towards a world of automatics..

also does anybody know if the diesels (in UK etc) come with manual transmissions? hopefully they would do the same over here..

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by jrsites

The car was stolen right out of our garage (while we were home!), so I'll never know how long the box would've lasted.

Ahh the beauty of owning a Civic!

[JayM]

I am planning on a manual for both the enjoyment and the cost savings (I am lucky as my wife can drive a manual). If BMW offers a true DSG-type transmission, it will make the decision a little harder.

I have mostly had manual transmission cars with a few automatics thrown in, including my current car. The problem I find with most automatics is that you lose that "direct" feeling with the car that a manual provides (that is the best way I know how to describe it), not to mention the loss of hp from the torque converter. I know BMW's new automatic locks-up the torque converter and I have not driven a car with that transmission, so I cannot say if it feels like a manual or not. I have driven a VW with the DSG and I find it a much better experience than a regular automatic, but also not as fun as a manual. It is definitely the best option for those that want/need an auto. When I got my Legacy GT I opted for the auto because I drove in traffic everyday that was getting a little tiresome with my 5sp WRX. The Legacy has a 5sp auto with steptronic-type control and I thought this would be the best compromise between a manual and auto, but after living with it I would rather have a manual, even in traffic. The main reason is the loss of that "direct" feel and the delay in shifting in certain circumstances.

I also recently drove a 2004 330i convertible with an auto and it did not seem to have the power I thought it would. I am trying to find one with a manual to drive but have not yet been successful (I have driven a 330i sedan with a manual that I liked very much).

Oh well, I just wanted to add my thoughts to this thread.

[bradford]

This thread amuses me.

If the 135 was going to be available with a servo-controlled CLUTCH based "automatic" trans then this subject would be worthy of debate.

But since it's only available with an old-school torque converter b!tchstick, this is just an argument between performance drivers, and, well...not.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by aesthetect

also does anybody know if the diesels (in UK etc) come with manual transmissions? hopefully they would do the same over here..

The diesels come with 6 speed MTs, but if they make it to the US it probably won't be right away. Hopefully '09 or '10.

[Maximus Decimus]

Originally Posted by jrsites

I can't think of any modern car racing series in which the drivers use a clutch and H-pattern stick to shift gears (well, save NASCAR, but road coarse driving is the exception to the rule for them). F1, CART, IRL, ALMS drivers are all just pushing a lever back and forth to select gears - without depressing a clutch. Are those guys any less connected to their cars?

JR, gotta interject here. Any professional racing series is a completely different animal altogether. Comparing apples to oranges. Anything possible to save a .00000001 of a second rightly should be implemented. I'd be willing to bet though those same drivers drive manuals in their everyday cars. I just can't see them driving automatics.

In everyday, not superhuman driving, as great as these new automatics are, there is still a feeling of 'virtual' reality to it for me. There is no finesse, EVERYONE will get the same feeling when they execute a shift from 2nd to 3rd in the auto, because it's actually the computer that executes it. You'll never hear from from a passenger, 'niiiiiiiiiiiice' as you execute a perfect shift and chirp the tires just a lil bit. Manual gives you a chance to change gears with style man, not just change gears. :biggrin:

Also there are a lot of little things for me about manual. I love being in neutral waiting at a light and jiggling the stick. (That just sounds wrong). I love not having to sit on the brake when I come to stop. I love not having to start the car if I need to move it 1 inch on the driveway for something. I love the peace of mind that not every1 can drive stick. I love stick for everyday. If I were buying an F430 Scuderia for track duty, if there were no performance disadvantages with the seq man, I would likely go that route. I know I can't outshift the computer.

[Maximus Decimus]

All the manual vs auto talk reminded me of 1 of my fave vid clips featuring bmw's. This is why I love BMW and why I just can't imagine getting them in auto.

BMW Films - Star. Woohoo!! How boring would this have been if the car were auto???

[ibeam81]

Wow... That was great! I had forgotten how good those videos were. Now where did I put that DVD?

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by jrsites

No offense taken here. It's all good. :biggrin:

Again, in the spirit of friendly debate, I still have a hard time understanding this notion of a true manual being more "engaging" than the Steptronic. When driven in Sport mode, the Steptronic transmission requires that I remove my right hand from the steering wheel, grasp a gear shift lever, then move that gear shift lever in order to select the next gear. Is that any different than what is required with a manual transmission?

In theory you are partially correct, except that if you get really anal about the steps required, the distance covered for a manual transmission is in some case longer increasing that "engaging" time. Additionally, the clutch pedal adds another level of engagement. But the main point, here, is that the shift lever you would have on an automatic has zero feel. It is much closer to a Playstation 3 than real-live driving. For me, the joy in the manual comes in what you can feel. I love feeling the clutch engaging, and the feel of snicking each gear through the gates.

Originally Posted by jrsites

Bottom line, though, is that the only part of the manual experience that doesn't exist in the Steptronic driving experience is the depressing and releasing of a clutch pedal. So is that act alone what makes a manual more engaging?

You cant underestimate the role of the clutch. As I mentioned before, it is an aspect of that precess that lends more feel. There have been a lot of people that have thrown themselves overboard concerned about the 1er's steering feel. That steering feel is critical because it is what lets you engage in the machine. The same applies to a manual gearbox. You are exponentially increasing the amount of feel you get through the machine which exponentially increases the fun factor.

Originally Posted by jrsites

But if, on the other hand, the definition is being able to select the gear you want, when you want, and ONLY when you want, then I believe that the Steptronic is just as engaging.

Hold on there cowboy. This is one thing that I have had a problem with on multiple automatic and SMG-like gearboxes. If, on a typical road going 45 mph in 5th gear, I want to pass someone, I would have to select 3rd gear to do that (at least in my car... the 135i will surely be different). In an automatic, the gears can only be selected sequentially so it requires much more time to get to that 3rd gear than it would be in a manual where I can go straight there.

I will also concede that evolution of these gearboxes is making it much more difficult to decide between the two. The only requirement on their part is to not be too overruling. When some of these gearboxes have problems that shift for you when you get close to the redline, it nearly ruins the driving experience for me. I believe some of the new BMWs dont do that. Regardless, the shift times are remarkable and with the ability to blip the throttle on the downchanges, the gearboxes are becoming more and more fun. Just not as fun as a manual...

Originally Posted by jrsites

I can't think of any modern car racing series in which the drivers use a clutch and H-pattern stick to shift gears (well, save NASCAR, but road coarse driving is the exception to the rule for them). F1, CART, IRL, ALMS drivers are all just pushing a lever back and forth to select gears - without depressing a clutch. Are those guys any less connected to their cars?

Those guys probably are less connected to their cars in regards to their gearboxes. They make up for with the thousand other modifications that they can make in the cockpit. Racing gearboxes are all about consistency and reliability. A computer will always be more consistent than a human and because of that, can be programmed to be more reliable. For racing, that makes the decision plainly obvious. But even these days, BMW won the 24 Hours of the Nurburging with an E46 M3 that did not run a sequential gearbox, rather a high modified H-pattern gearbox. So they still can win, if you definition of "engaging" is how many tenths it takes to shift...

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

In everyday, not superhuman driving, as great as these new automatics are, there is still a feeling of 'virtual' reality to it for me. There is no finesse, EVERYONE will get the same feeling when they execute a shift from 2nd to 3rd in the auto, because it's actually the computer that executes it.

I hear you. And I understand. I realize that for some people, the interaction with the clutch and an H-Pattern gear shift lever is part of what makes the driving experience enjoyable. For me, though, the mechanics of getting from gear to gear is not the biggest component of the equation. For me, communicative steering with just a touch of tendency to oversteer, brakes that give you good feedback and don't fade, and the ability to feel the car's movement in all axes through the seat of your pants (to borrow a term from aviation) are what makes a great, "connected" driving experience for me. In my world, the tranny, and my interaction with it, are just a means to the end.

But like I said, I fully understand why some of you find great enjoyment in an MT. I guess the only point I was really trying to make is that there are some of us driving enthusiasts out here who know a thing or two about performance driving and don't feel the need to have an MT just to have a "true", "connected" driving experience, as some have stated.

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

BMW Films - Star. Woohoo!! How boring would this have been if the car were auto???

That was great! Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or was that Madonna?

[Chibana]

Originally Posted by bradford

This thread amuses me.

If the 135 was going to be available with a servo-controlled CLUTCH based "automatic" trans then this subject would be worthy of debate.

But since it's only available with an old-school torque converter b!tchstick, this is just an argument between performance drivers, and, well...not.

Isn't that exactly what the SMG is? I just read in an old Car & Driver review of the SMG that it's simply the standard BMW Getrag 6-speed manual with an automatic shifting mode. Has it been determined that the 1 Series will not offer SMG? If so, then I guess I'm gone.

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by MPower

But the main point, here, is that the shift lever you would have on an automatic has zero feel. It is much closer to a Playstation 3 than real-live driving. For me, the joy in the manual comes in what you can feel. I love feeling the clutch engaging, and the feel of snicking each gear through the gates.

I understand. This is related to a point I made above. A lot of this is personal preference. I completely understand how for you, and many others, it's the act of moving the gear shift lever through gates and engaging the clutch that makes driving enjoyable.

I know this is hard to understand, but I've always longed for a transmission that I could "shift" the way the CART and F1 (though they use steering wheel buttons now) drivers I watched on TV did. Your statement stirs a sort of "analog vs. digital" analogy in my mind. The analog things in life are always going to be the more interactive, engaging, and beautifully crafted, while the digital things are always going to be boring, antiseptic and bland. But for some reason I've always been a "digital" guy. I don't care about the feel of shifting gears so much as the action associated with it. I remember watching so many clips of CART drivers screaming down the straight at Portland International Raceway, then jumping on the binders to set up for the Festival Curves right hander, while bang-bang-banging down through the gears simply by palming the lever and nudging it forward rapidly. THAT'S what I want to be able to do in my car.

Here's another analogy. Do you think there was a time, years ago, when people said that a car with power steering doesn't give you the "connected" driving experience that true performance enthusiasts like? But look at the absolute wonders BMW have done with their vehicles and power steering. Who would even consider calling for a non-power steering car now?

Originally Posted by MPower

This is one thing that I have had a problem with on multiple automatic and SMG-like gearboxes. If, on a typical road going 45 mph in 5th gear, I want to pass someone, I would have to select 3rd gear to do that (at least in my car... the 135i will surely be different). In an automatic, the gears can only be selected sequentially so it requires much more time to get to that 3rd gear than it would be in a manual where I can go straight there.

This is why I think the Steptronics are misunderstood. If you want to go from 5th to 3rd in a Step- equipped car, you simply reach over and slap the lever forward twice as fast as you can. The tranny goes to 3rd gear just that fast. Now, I don't know enough about the technicalities to know whether it's actually going through 4th to get to 3rd, or whether it goes straight to 3rd. But judging by how quickly the Step did multiple-gear downshifts in the E90 I came close to buying last Spring, my guess is the computer just tells the tranny to go straight to 3rd gear. In all seriousness, that E90 seemed to do multiple-gear downshifts faster than I could've done them on a manual (if I were doing a proper heel-and-toe downshift).

Originally Posted by MPower

The only requirement on their part is to not be too overruling. When some of these gearboxes have problems that shift for you when you get close to the redline, it nearly ruins the driving experience for me. I believe some of the new BMWs dont do that. Regardless, the shift times are remarkable and with the ability to blip the throttle on the downchanges, the gearboxes are becoming more and more fun. Just not as fun as a manual...

Completely agree. That's why I've considered all of the other "manumatics" I've driven to be complete crap. But this tranny is different. The only shifting it does for you, as far as I experienced, was to go from 2nd to 1st when you come to a stop. Other than that, you are in complete control. Even at redline. And I really like the way it rev-matches on downshifts.