Loss of power at the track

[jafo1701]

I'm going to the track the first time this year on Friday....if the rain holds off. It's suppose to be in the low 80s so I shouldn't have any problems. The indie shop said they didn't have coding tools, so I couldn't get that stuff coded out. I'm searching for someone online to do it remotely but so far no luck. I did a coilover conversion kit at the end of last year. Got stiffer Swift springs at the max spring rate that my Koni Sports will handle. Depending on how the car feels my intent is to push the car a bit harder. We'll see how she holds up.

I also just got a Seibon GTR Carbon fiber hood installed. It has functional hood vents and of course I have hood latches installed. It probably won't matter much for oil or water temps, however the engine bay does stay a lot cooler with it. Also maybe it'll help with the drag, as there is a fair amount of hood lift with the stock hood. There is none whatsoever with the Seibon hood. The weight savings of 23 pounds probably won't matter much but every bit helps. That's around 130 pounds I've shaved off the car so far.

[Datka]

I had Carbon fiber hood installed before with open vents and it didn't make any noticeable difference. It cracked eventually and I put the stock hood back on.
To fight against the hood lift, I put sticky tape along the hood, which also reduces the drag at high speed.

[joeo]

Datka - if you want to run a tune/more boost, I think additional cooling is your only option. Either a larger radiator (maybe CSL) or a larger or additional oil cooler.
What oil temperatures are you seeing at the track?

[Datka]

Oil temp. was not too high surprisingly. Around 270-280. I think heat on helps for sure.
I did think about the radiator... Not sure I want to spend too much on this car at this point. I do have e92 m3 too.
I could try to detune it and see what happens, but stock power is too slow for me...

[jafo1701]

Originally Posted by Datka

Oil temp. was not too high surprisingly. Around 270-280. I think heat on helps for sure.
I did think about the radiator... Not sure I want to spend too much on this car at this point. I do have e92 m3 too.
I could try to detune it and see what happens, but stock power is too slow for me...

I have the BMW PPK tune. If I had to do it over again I would of got the extra radiator. It's still a slight bump in power which helps and it's not such an aggressive tune to cause over heating issues. I find that I can outpace any stock E90/92 M3 with my 135i. The tracks I run don't have long enough straights where the M3s can wind up and use it's power advantage. I'm pretty good in the corners and have a good feel for the capabilities of my car. The torque out of the corners gives me the advantage, unless I completely fubar the entry. By the time we reach triple digits where the M3s starts to take the advantage it's already time to brake into a corner. Of course all this is dependent on driver skill also, but I've yet to have a stock E90/92 M3 that can best me. Still an E90/92 M3 is a very capable track car and in stock form destroys a stock 135i I would think.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by jafo1701

I have the BMW PPK tune. If I had to do it over again I would of got the extra radiator. It's still a slight bump in power which helps and it's not such an aggressive tune to cause over heating issues. I find that I can outpace any stock E90/92 M3 with my 135i. The tracks I run don't have long enough straights where the M3s can wind up and use it's power advantage. I'm pretty good in the corners and have a good feel for the capabilities of my car. The torque out of the corners gives me the advantage, unless I completely fubar the entry. By the time we reach triple digits where the M3s starts to take the advantage it's already time to brake into a corner. Of course all this is dependent on driver skill also, but I've yet to have a stock E90/92 M3 that can best me. Still an E90/92 M3 is a very capable track car and in stock form destroys a stock 135i I would think.

You find that you can outpace ANY stock E90/92 M3 with your 135i?
That's because you never run against my m3
I bought m3 and 135i brand new and have been tracking both for many years now.
Stock 135i is practically undriveable on the track due to the soft suspension and built in understeer from the factory.
Stock m cars don't understeer as much. It all depends on how much $ one wants to spend to make stock car faster.
When my m3 was stock my lap times were a little better than my 135i modded with coilovers/c plates and m3 bits that replaced stock suspension.
But you will have no chance against similarly modded e9x m3 if m3 driver knows what he/she is doing.
I really think that the biggest challenge for 135i is the limited tire size. I am running 255f/265R which is the biggest I could go on a slightly lowered 135i.
I too find that I outrun most e9x and some f80 m3/4 on the track with 135i. But not every driver is good or is willing to push the car to the limit.
My m3 is supercharged now and only very few well driven cars and lightened full blown race cars can outrun me on the track.
Very soon I am going to do full aero, some weight reduction and put BFG R1S tires and it should get very interesting

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by Datka

You find that you can outpace ANY stock E90/92 M3 with your 135i?
That's because you never run against my m3
I bought m3 and 135i brand new and have been tracking both for many years now.
Stock 135i is practically undriveable on the track due to the soft suspension and built in understeer from the factory.
Stock m cars don't understeer as much. It all depends on how much $ one wants to spend to make stock car faster.
When my m3 was stock my lap times were a little better than my 135i modded with coilovers/c plates and m3 bits that replaced stock suspension.
But you will have no chance against similarly modded e9x m3 if m3 driver knows what he/she is doing.
I really think that the biggest challenge for 135i is the limited tire size. I am running 255f/265R which is the biggest I could go on a slightly lowered 135i.
I too find that I outrun most e9x and some f80 m3/4 on the track with 135i. But not every driver is good or is willing to push the car to the limit.
My m3 is supercharged now and only very few well driven cars and lightened full blown race cars can outrun me on the track.
Very soon I am going to do full aero, some weight reduction and put BFG R1S tires and it should get very interesting

What type of 255/265 tire are you running? I run Federal 595 rs-rr (255/265) which measure much closer to 265/275 but I have plenty of rear clearance and I can almost see myself squeezing 265 up front (unfortunately my rims are 8.5 so that's not an option now) but with -3* and my thinnish struts I think it's possible. I've realized comparing tire width across companies is pointless, there is a lot of variance.

Also what's your suspension setup on the 135? And the m3?

Regarding cooling, I have the Dinan Oil cooler & FMIC, stock radiator (with distilled water + water wetter), and an external tranny cooler but I feel that may be unnecessary. Considering the 1M extra radiator or CSF. I've never limped at the track and I run about 400whp running about 1:49 at Laguna for reference... (Not the fastest driver lol)

[Datka]

SPXXX, what are your power mods?
If you don't get any kind of limp mode with that much power, it means either you are not pushing your car hard enough or you have perfect air fuel ratio for track use and have also ideal boost curve so that the car holds consistent power up top.
On 135i i am running RE71R 255/35 265/35 18s with 3 mm spacers all around. Very tight fit on a lowered car with -3.2 camber up front.
After talking to some experts, it looks like my loss of power in a hot ambient tempr. is that, N55 HPFP can't really support sustained hard-running with high boost levels.
After a few hard laps the ECU demands more fuel which handicaps the HPFP. Which causes slowdown, exactly what I experience during hard driving in a hot and humid weather.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Datka

SPXXX, what are your power mods?
If you don't get any kind of limp mode with that much power, it means either you are not pushing your car hard enough or you have perfect air fuel ratio for track use and have also ideal boost curve so that the car holds consistent power up top.
On 135i i am running RE71R 255/35 265/35 18s with 3 mm spacers all around. Very tight fit on a lowered car with -3.2 camber up front.
After talking to some experts, it looks like my loss of power in a hot ambient tempr. is that, N55 HPFP can't really support sustained hard-running with high boost levels.
After a few hard laps the ECU demands more fuel which handicaps the HPFP. Which causes slowdown, exactly what I experience during hard driving in a hot and humid weather.

I track my N55 and have never experienced what you state. I have 0 power loss on track and temps are just fine.

First, N55 HPFP is same as N54. N55 does produce more torque lower in the rpm band though which hits the fuel pump harder. This is only really relevant when you begin your pull at <3k rpms. The only time my rail pressure dips had is when doing a 3/4th gear pull starting at less than 3k rpms. Currently tuned for 215+ load at 25psi...

If you're dropping below 3k rpms on track you need to downshift...

I also had 0 heating issues on track running ppk tune as a base and my old custom cobb tune. PPK slightly modifies the cooling targets of the water pump which does help a bit. I was also running water + water wetter. N55 does just fine in the heat. I've never seen over 27x oil even on 90+f track days. Now with MHD's "track" cooling settings, oil temps should be even less of an issue. My coolant doesnt go over 200f now and I've yet to see oil over 240-250f even on 95f+ days doing 5th gear pulls.

Basically, don't blame the car. Sounds like something with your setup. Have you coded off the electronic nannies? Electronic brake disc overheating? Do you have a proper flash tune? Is your fuel pump weak?

[crowtrobot]

Think I ran into this with my N51 128i two weekends ago at Watkins.

Day 2, Session 3 - was an extended session with combined Advanced/Solo/Inst. run groups out on track. Got about 25 min into the session and lost power similar to how OP described it. No CEL, no codes. Was able to nurse the car back into the pits, cooled it down, took it out on the public roads a bit and came back for the final session without problem. It was well over 90*F that weekend, so not surprising that there might be a heat issue, but I didn't run into this at all last season. Other track days earlier this year were much cooler.

I ran with an AA tune last year, and moved to the tune + headers this year. I have not coded out the nannies. Is this an engine cooling thing or related to the brake heating precautions?

[jafo1701]

Originally Posted by Datka

You find that you can outpace ANY stock E90/92 M3 with your 135i?
That's because you never run against my m3
I bought m3 and 135i brand new and have been tracking both for many years now.
Stock 135i is practically undriveable on the track due to the soft suspension and built in understeer from the factory.
Stock m cars don't understeer as much. It all depends on how much $ one wants to spend to make stock car faster.
When my m3 was stock my lap times were a little better than my 135i modded with coilovers/c plates and m3 bits that replaced stock suspension.
But you will have no chance against similarly modded e9x m3 if m3 driver knows what he/she is doing.
I really think that the biggest challenge for 135i is the limited tire size. I am running 255f/265R which is the biggest I could go on a slightly lowered 135i.
I too find that I outrun most e9x and some f80 m3/4 on the track with 135i. But not every driver is good or is willing to push the car to the limit.
My m3 is supercharged now and only very few well driven cars and lightened full blown race cars can outrun me on the track.
Very soon I am going to do full aero, some weight reduction and put BFG R1S tires and it should get very interesting

Ya, I'm pretty sure you would dust me. I did say stock M3 not modded. I've had a few modded M3s leave me in dust in the E90/36 and 46 variant. While I'm by no means an expert driver I think I'm a solid driver. I'll run Intermediate or Advanced, more toward the top of intermediate and just at the edge of the top 1/3rd in advanced. My 135i is far from stock also. Suspension has been overhauled, LSD, intercooler, extra camber, Lightweight wheels etc. While it's no track monster it's a very capable track car in it's current form. It's a fun car to drive, sure I would like to be faster, but for the most us we're constrained by the all mighty dollar.

[jafo1701]

Originally Posted by spxxx

What type of 255/265 tire are you running? I run Federal 595 rs-rr (255/265) which measure much closer to 265/275 but I have plenty of rear clearance and I can almost see myself squeezing 265 up front (unfortunately my rims are 8.5 so that's not an option now) but with -3* and my thinnish struts I think it's possible. I've realized comparing tire width across companies is pointless, there is a lot of variance.

Have to do anything special to run the 255s up front. I'm running Coilovers, but not a very aggressive lower. I have -2.2 camber up front and run a 3mm spacer with Apex ARC 8s. Do you have any rubbing at all on the street or track. It's not my daily but I still have to get it to and from the track. I run 235/255 right now. 255/265 for next year would be outstanding if It would fit. I'll probably be running the Hancook R-S4s next year.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by crowtrobot

Think I ran into this with my N51 128i two weekends ago at Watkins.

Day 2, Session 3 - was an extended session with combined Advanced/Solo/Inst. run groups out on track. Got about 25 min into the session and lost power similar to how OP described it. No CEL, no codes. Was able to nurse the car back into the pits, cooled it down, took it out on the public roads a bit and came back for the final session without problem. It was well over 90*F that weekend, so not surprising that there might be a heat issue, but I didn't run into this at all last season. Other track days earlier this year were much cooler.

I ran with an AA tune last year, and moved to the tune + headers this year. I have not coded out the nannies. Is this an engine cooling thing or related to the brake heating precautions?

128i "brale disc overheating" protection intervenes way earlier than a 135i. You NEED to code that off to track a 128i...

Also, my 128i (N51) ran way hotter than my now 135i (N55) ever has. I would see 280-290f oil temps and 240f coolant on the 128i. It NEEDS an oil cooler retrofitted! High oil/coolant temps probably aren't your main problem though... the brake disc overheating probably is.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Basically, don't blame the car. Sounds like something with your setup. Have you coded off the electronic nannies? Electronic brake disc overheating? Do you have a proper flash tune? Is your fuel pump weak?

Weak fuel pump?
You may be onto something. Every 3 or 4 weeks i have been adding 1/2 liter of coolant/distilled water since December.
I did replace my water pump 3 years ago. It gave up and left me stranded on my way to work. The day before I was at LRP where I had to cut my track day short due to the limp mode...
Loss of power does not happen on the track in a cool temp., like 70F or less.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Datka

Weak fuel pump?
You may be onto something. Every 3 or 4 weeks i have been adding 1/2 liter of coolant/distilled water since December.
I did replace my water pump 3 years ago. It gave up and left me stranded on my way to work. The day before I was at LRP where I had to cut my track day short due to the limp mode...
Loss of power does not happen on the track in a cool temp., like 70F or less.

you need to log before you jump to any conclusions... maybe it's your tune... you might need your tuner to bump rail pressure up (if it's actually dipping too low). If you are JB4 only then you'll have a harder time fixing fueling problems. Log misfires. If rail pressure is dipping too low it will manifest itself in the dme shutting down individual cylinders (which will log as misfires).

Log coolant and oil temps... dme starts pulling power at:

These measures are divided over two operating modes:
• Component protection
- Coolant temperature between 117°C/242°F and 124°C/255°F
- Engine oil temperature between 150°C/300°F and 157°C/314°F
- Result: The output of the air conditioning system
(up to 100%) and of the engine is reduced
• Emergency
- Coolant temperature between 125°C/257°F and 129°C/264°F
- Engine oil temperature between 158°C/316°F and 163°C/325°F
- Result: The power output of the engine is reduced
(up to 90%)


see pdf here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attac...8&d=1317333814

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by jafo1701

Have to do anything special to run the 255s up front. I'm running Coilovers, but not a very aggressive lower. I have -2.2 camber up front and run a 3mm spacer with Apex ARC 8s. Do you have any rubbing at all on the street or track. It's not my daily but I still have to get it to and from the track. I run 235/255 right now. 255/265 for next year would be outstanding if It would fit. I'll probably be running the Hancook R-S4s next year.

Run short front springs on your coils, I also removed helper springs on my coils. Totes a waste of space re: clearance

[Datka]

Originally Posted by bNks334

you need to log before you jump to any conclusions... maybe it's your tune... you might need your tuner to bump rail pressure up (if it's actually dipping too low). If you are JB4 only then you'll have a harder time fixing fueling problems. Log misfires. If rail pressure is dipping too low it will manifest itself in the dme shutting down individual cylinders (which will log as misfires).

Log coolant and oil temps... dme starts pulling power at:

These measures are divided over two operating modes:
• Component protection
- Coolant temperature between 117°C/242°F and 124°C/255°F
- Engine oil temperature between 150°C/300°F and 157°C/314°F
- Result: The output of the air conditioning system
(up to 100%) and of the engine is reduced
• Emergency
- Coolant temperature between 125°C/257°F and 129°C/264°F
- Engine oil temperature between 158°C/316°F and 163°C/325°F
- Result: The power output of the engine is reduced
(up to 90%)


see pdf here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attac...8&d=1317333814

I use Cobb stage 1+ because its easy to use.
Do you have a tuner you can recommend? I might go with custom tune

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by Datka

I use Cobb stage 1+ because its easy to use.
Do you have a tuner you can recommend? I might go with custom tune

I have some good tunes that I have built for MHD. I run a small amount of ethanol for cooling/knock protection

[drunkenup]

Wanted to share my experiences after two days at NJMP

Last time I was there, oil temperature would be at least 280f toward end of session, with noticable power reduction and extremely delayed throttle response. This was on MHD software, stock cooling tables, slower tires, slower lap times. Near 90f ambient

This time, MHD software with sport cooling table, on faster tires, on throttle more often, oil temperature is just kissing 270f going 9/10ths. No power reduction, throttle response stays same. I did not log, but water temps have to be sitting pretty low all throughout. As soon as I pulled into the paddock, oil temps fell to 230. 90f ambient

This entire time I used stock OC and radiator. I want to see results with better hardware- probably the end of N54 cooling issues.

[jafo1701]

Last weekend at RPM it was upper 70s at the high. Temps hit 260 without the heat on and 255 with the heat on but not cranked to the max. Only once had that dreaded overbraking error come on. I wasn't very smooth on the brakes in that session though. Smoothed out my braking, times got faster and no power reduction or warning lights. I was running really hard the last two sessions. I did destroy my front tires but that was my fault.

Unfortunately my central air unit bit the dust a few days ago. So my track days are numbered for the summer. Hopefully sneak another one or two in this fall.

[jvb6806]

I was having power cut issues with no codes as well, and have had it come on during several 20 min PDX sessions. After it kicked on in the 1st session at my last track day I broke 1 marker earlier for the next 2 and the car did not shut down (TC stuff was fully off). No ABS... No limp mode.

I am still looking for someone in the chicago area that can code out nannies if anyone knows a guy/girl that can do it.

[bNks334]

I was just at lime rock park with the new mhd race settings. It's was 86f and humid. Very similar to the last time I was there (88f).

Coolant temps were better but hard to quantify the difference. Oil only hit 262f. Last time less there it hit just over 270. The settings definitely helped. Coolant peaked 219f at the end of the straight. I will say it doesn't seem like they helped as much as I was Hoping. I was Hoping coolant would've spent more time below 200f. Things are cool enough as is yo not warrant any additional cooling, but a radiator would be nice if this was a pure track car for me.

http://datazap.me/u/banks334/lime-ro...ta=4-6-9-20-22

http://datazap.me/u/banks334/track-d...6-17&solo=2-16