The harsh reality of aftermarket NA chip tuning

[janus77]

I know the cabrio is slightly heavier, but the chip doesn't seem to do much.

[cooler2442]

If you had the turbo motor then the chip would be a night and day difference. Can't really ask for much more on a none supercharged / turbo motor.....

[janus77]

Of course, chips on turbo cars can just increase boost pressure, easy to get more power.
There are lots of posts on getting more grunt out of the NA engines, but the reality i think is going to be much like the vid above.
2c only..

[130iguy]

i've said it before and i'll say it again

Originally Posted by 130iguy

i'm sure you'll find that as with my 130 your 128 wont make anywhere near as much as that 125 in the dyno chart due to the restrictions from the factory

130i 195 kW; 261 hp 315 N·m (232 lb·ft)
128i 170 kW; 230 hp 271 N·m (200 lb·ft)
125i 160 kW; 215 hp 270 N·m (200 lb·ft)

[Andrew@ET]

we are talking 8-12 hp here.. It seems you were pulling him a little thats all you can really ask for. What chip do you have?

[BMW86]

Are there 2 passengers in both cars? Even if there are, I think that's pretty impressive because the cabrio weighs a LOT more, isn't it something like 80kg?

[Drawn05]

Janus, one thing that many people dont understand about the 125/128 to 130 tune is that while the engine might now make 270hp+, some of the other components cant deal with it and cant get that increased power to the rear wheels (at least not much of it).

In my case, I have the digitec 125i remap (~200kw at the engine) but the torque converter I have in my auto cant properly deal with the power. The 125i and 128i autos are the same as those in the 130i and 330i, but the former have low rated tc (R145TTD) and the x30i have (RR171TTD). I would assume that it would be a similar case with the MT.

My transmission has weirded out on me a few times now since I got the remap and I plan to replace the tc with the x30i version next month, which should see a higher stall speed and better torque multiplication.

I did about 30x 0-100km/sec. runs using a gtech SS pro unit and managed a best of 5.69 seconds but averaged around 6.1 seconds which is pretty replicable (and road was flat as a tack). So I would expect that to improve with the upgraded TC.

Here are a few of the saved runs on the gtech,

[Dackelone]

OP - you should have researched YouTube better. The guy who made that video (maikyymaik) made several chipped 125i vs 130i runs...

We met this guy in the green 125i vert at the Ring a few weeks ago. His car is quite quick. It really does bring the two cars quite close in performance terms.

Dackel

[Riley1524]

All these claims that the German tuners are a little bogus if you ask me. I can't see getting over 15whp on just a tune. I would have to see some real proof before I would even consider paying what they want for a tune

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Riley1524

All these claims that the German tuners are a little bogus if you ask me. I can't see getting over 15whp on just a tune. I would have to see some real proof before I would even consider paying what they want for a tune

Well.... you are free to believe what ever you want. But it is true that the German tuners have unlocked the intake tuning via the DISA intake manifold.

Btw... these same German tuners only get this much gain on the N51/N52 motors with DISA. On say other NA motors like Audi or Opel... you don't see more than 8-10% gains in HP. It is only on BMW's three stage manifold system that they use on the 125i/128i/130i that you (can) see really big gains. It is just a plus(+) of this motor design.

And as far as price goes... this is Germany. German's know all good quality products cost money - bc of R&D, and TUV and so on. Plus there really isn't much competition over here(for anything!). German's are used to paying upwards of 1K euros JUST for the tuner's to unlock the V-max on thier cars! No tune - just an open V-max. Then IF you wnat tuning... that will cost you more money/euros.


Dackel

[Riley1524]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Well.... you are free to believe what ever you want. But it is true that the German tuners have unlocked the intake tuning via the DISA intake manifold.

Btw... these same German tuners only get this much gain on the N51/N52 motors with DISA. On say other NA motors like Audi or Opel... you don't see more than 8-10% gains in HP. It is only on BMW's three stage manifold system that they use on the 125i/128i/130i that you (can) see really big gains. It is just a plus(+) of this motor design.

And as far as price goes... this is Germany. German's know all good quality products cost money - bc of R&D, and TUV and so on. Plus there really isn't much competition over here(for anything!). German's are used to paying upwards of 1K euros JUST for the tuner's to unlock the V-max on thier cars! No tune - just an open V-max. Then IF you wnat tuning... that will cost you more money/euros.


Dackel

I thought the same thing for a while, and maybe your right with the added three stage manifold ( which most people won't bother with because you need more than just the manifold to pull this off), but with just a tune, I don't think your going to see over 15whp. Of coarse, someone is free to make me a liar and I'm willing to bet Andrew EMS will agree

[Dackelone]

I posted this before... but here it is again. A dyno chart of a tuned 125i (128i) from www.ms-tuning.de Marcel has tuned quite a few 125i's - and all these guys are happy. From what I am told there are only a handfull (four or so) of German tuners that know how to code the DME for the new DISA tuning. This is the secret in getting (max)power out of the N51/N52 motor. You can see that tuners in the US who only use a traditional method of tuning get a small gain of 8% HP, while the euro tuners can get 270 HP. Also look at the gains in torque (Nm).

[Riley1524]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I posted this before... but here it is again. A dyno chart of a tuned 125i (128i) from www.ms-tuning.de Marcel has tuned quite a few 125i's - and all these guys are happy. From what I am told there are only a handfull (four or so) of German tuners that know how to code the DME for the new DISA tuning. This is the secret in getting (max)power out of the N51/N52 motor. You can see that tuners in the US who only use a traditional method of tuning get a small gain of 8% HP, while the euro tuners can get 270 HP. Also look at the gains in torque (Nm).

Ok, so just to clarify, theses gains can be had without the 3 stage manifold/128i US manifold?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Riley1524

Ok, so just to clarify, theses gains can be had without the 3 stage manifold/128i US manifold?

I am no expert by any means on the N52 tuning. But from what I understand... (in talking to Marcel and other 1er forum.de guys) that the 125i and 128i have a two stage manifold (DISA) - and this can be tuned via software. No hardware needed to get 270 PS gain. It is all done with software. I think the 130i has a three stage DISA and can get slightly more PS (HP) gain - few more PS that is.

[opvaulet]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

Janus, one thing that many people dont understand about the 125/128 to 130 tune is that while the engine might now make 270hp+, some of the other components cant deal with it and cant get that increased power to the rear wheels (at least not much of it).

In my case, I have the digitec 125i remap (~200kw at the engine) but the torque converter I have in my auto cant properly deal with the power. The 125i and 128i autos are the same as those in the 130i and 330i, but the former have low rated tc (R145TTD) and the x30i have (RR171TTD). I would assume that it would be a similar case with the MT.

My transmission has weirded out on me a few times now since I got the remap and I plan to replace the tc with the x30i version next month, which should see a higher stall speed and better torque multiplication.

I did about 30x 0-100km/sec. runs using a gtech SS pro unit and managed a best of 5.69 seconds but averaged around 6.1 seconds which is pretty replicable (and road was flat as a tack). So I would expect that to improve with the upgraded TC.

Here are a few of the saved runs on the gtech,

Attachment 533369

Interesting info. What was you launch technique for the 0-100 runs?

Cheers!

[Drawn05]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I am no expert by any means on the N52 tuning. But from what I understand... (in talking to Marcel and other 1er forum.de guys) that the 125i and 128i have a two stage manifold (DISA) - and this can be tuned via software. No hardware needed to get 270 PS gain. It is all done with software. I think the 130i has a three stage DISA and can get slightly more PS (HP) gain - few more PS that is.

The 125i, 130i and the N51 128i all have 2 DISA adjuster units. The N52 128i does not any which is perhaps why the tuners in the US do not get the same gains.

Originally Posted by opvaulet

Interesting info. What was you launch technique for the 0-100 runs?

Cheers!

Foot on brake, put it in M1, press the button on the gtech and just floor it. Not very fancy and could be a lot better.

[Evice]

I think I heard the same thing as Drawn05 said as 128i doesn't have DISA. I never confirmed it.

All that DISA does is this change how much air is moving at different engine speeds, and control fuel with ECU. This is a very basic control over Torque vs HP production and their curves.

Idea is really similar to M50 intake swap on S52 engine on e36 platform. When you swap M50 intake with S52 intake(which has smaller inlets) more Volume of air can be moved, but this causes lower RPM Torque loss, but with High RPM Horsepower gain. Difference with using DISA is that a dynamic restriction in lower RPMs is created so that you keep the torque in lower RPMs. If not, people will b!tch who uses their Bimmers as DDs.

My 128i is soon to be(1,5-2 years) a full track var, which I prefer higher end HP while sacrificing lower RPM torque. On track, you don't care about lower end torque and makes 128i a good platform without DISA. May be there will be companies that does tunes like Conforti, cams and headers etc... Good dreams.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Evice

I think I heard the same thing as Drawn05 said as 128i doesn't have DISA. I never confirmed it.

I have to check with my tuner Marcel. I am pretty sure he said he could tune a US spec 128i to 130i Hp numbers. I know there is something in the software of the very latest 125i's that no one has had luck cracking the code. ie he can't tune the very latest 125i's. But all the older models he has tuned many of these 125i/130i's.

Btw... I looked on RealOEM... they show the SAME intake manifold for all three cars (125i/128i/130i) engines. #11617559523 intake manifold. Seems like BMW uses this manifold on alot of their car models.


Dackel

[Drawn05]

The manifold is the same, but going off realoem, listed directly beneath the manifold are the 2 adjuster units which are listed for 125, 130 and N51 128 but not for the N52 128.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

The manifold is the same, but going off realoem, listed directly beneath the manifold are the 2 adjuster units which are listed for 125, 130 and N51 128 but not for the N52 128.

Exactly.

Dackelone, let us know what you find.

[AW128i]

The U.S. 128i with the N51 does have the 3-stage intake manifold, but BMW used this manifold to compensate for N51's lower compression ratio and additional catalyst, both of which are used to achieve the SULEV II emissions rating that the N52 does not achieve. That being said, I would be very surprised if the N51 can see the same gains. Logic would tell us that if the N51 needs the 3-stage manifold just to equate to the HP/TQ outputs of the N52, then it's tuning potential would be similarly limited, with perhaps a small advantage due to the 3-stage manifold.