RB Turbos & Vargas Turbos

[Drawn05]

And how much would the single turbo kit cost (as a rough estimate)?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by KD135

I think that statement has made my mind up, thanks Justin! Also can you run the car stock with just the turbos done with a tune ?

I believe Rob originally ran a prototype set of his turbos on a completely stock 135i for testing purposes, the vehicle did not even have a tune. IIRC the car ran perfectly fine operating on the factory DME alone.

So yes a car could run with RBs installed without any supporting mods, other than a tune. But why would you want to?

[Curare86]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

And how much would the single turbo kit cost (as a rough estimate)?

Think youd have to ask Vargas or vishnu. RB dont do a single turbo

[froop]

Originally Posted by Curare86

Think youd have to ask Vargas or vishnu. RB dont do a single turbo

Vargas don't do a single turbo either. Their stage 3 is a twin turbo set up with much larger turbos and new exhaust set up etc.

I think Steve may have been referring to Advan's upcoming ST kit. Vishnu don't make RHD ST kits I believe.

[froop]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

And how much would the single turbo kit cost (as a rough estimate)?

If I remember correctly, Pete said in another thread that it was in the $20-30k vicinity if not more.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by KD135

Possible to do a groupbuy ?

I think a local GB of any reasonable number would be very hard to achieve.

I personally receive a lot of inquiries regarding RB turbos, but the % of guys that actually pull the trigger on a purchase, is very small indeed.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

And how much would the single turbo kit cost (as a rough estimate)?

Mate, the final figure will depend on a number of things yet to be determined. However whilst we hope to have the prototype kit running on my car for MotorEx in late July, according to Pete he is not expecting the single turbo kit to go into production until the new year.

Originally Posted by froop

Vargas don't do a single turbo either. Their stage 3 is a twin turbo set up with much larger turbos and new exhaust set up etc.

I think Steve may have been referring to Advan's upcoming ST kit. Vishnu don't make RHD ST kits I believe.

Yes, I am quite sure Steve was referring to our high mount kit, that is a work in progress.

Originally Posted by froop

If I remember correctly, Pete said in another thread that it was in the $20-30k vicinity if not more.

Pete certainly knows how to shock the potential purchaser when he rips figures off like that.

When you are talking $30K "if not more", think built motor with an OS Giken twin-plate clutch, complete cooling upgrade, methanol injection kit, fuel system upgrade etc. plus install and tuning.

Oh, the above would also use a larger frame turbocharger than the Garret GTX3582R we are currently working with for the prototype kit, the GTX35 kit will not require a built motor.

Cheers,

JD.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey guys,

I have received quite a few PMs of late asking about the differences between Rob Beck turbochargers and the new VTT "Stage 2" turbos.

I thought I would share a PM I sent to customer at the start of May, which sheds some light on the matter, in particular how quickly they will spool in comparison to RB turbos.


Tony has upgraded the wastegate assemblies on his Stage 2's but I do not think they will be anywhere near a durable as Rob's, based on the comparisons Rob has drawn for me regarding the materials Tony chose and the manufacturing process used.

However durability issues will not become apparent for quite some time, as we know the OEM wastegates do not rattle "out of the box", the assemblies fail over time.

However with regards final dyno numbers, my hunch is the Vargas turbos will not spool as quickly as Rob's, as the smaller TF035HL exhaust turbine is not large enough to make optimum use of the exhaust gas energy available, to drive the large TD04-15T compressor wheel as efficiently as the TD04L wheel used on RBs at the same RPM.

However I feel the smaller 035 turbine wheel will simply not flow enough exhaust gas and will be tapped out before the exhaust housing becomes the restriction.



I suspect my hunch regarding the smaller TF035HL exhaust turbine, not being able to drive the 15T compressor wheel as efficiently, in comparison to the larger RB TD04L turbine was correct.

Anyway for those guys considering the RB turbo route I now have 2 sets of RHD cores at my disposal, for a quick turn around on the upgrade.

Cheers,

JD.

it's not actually a TF035HL wheel... it's a TF035HL profile in TD04 size, that was clarified a long time ago by tony and the owners of the stage 2 beta's, in comparison with the RB wheels even.

and can you clarify the wastegate design being inferior? as the vargas design is billet, just as the RB one is..?

"carefully machining them to accept the TD04 compressor Wheel, and Custom TF035 / TD04 turbine wheel. We then replace the factory waste gate arm and flapper valve with the 100% stainless steel version and include OEM actuators."

and the latest up-to-date dynos with a good tune show about the same numbers and spool compared to the vargas. slower spool was due to some reason, tuning i believe

power wise.... up top you could be right? little more to the left? that i'm not sure on, still waiting on more logs and graphs

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Pete certainly knows how to shock the potential purchaser when he rips figures off like that.

When you are talking $30K "if not more", think built motor with an OS Giken twin-plate clutch, complete cooling upgrade, methanol injection kit, fuel system upgrade etc. plus install and tuning.

Oh, the above would also use a larger frame turbocharger than the Garret GTX3582R we are currently working with for the prototype kit, the GTX35 kit will not require a built motor.

Cheers,

JD.

i hope you can one day be convinced to sell a partial-kit ;P.... for those that already havebuilt motor/beefy clutch/cooling/boltons/fuelling etc.. and want to use their own tuning solution

i know i personally would be convinced to buy it for the right price with teh right sized turbo, when i'll already have everything else done.

GTX42? or 6466/6766?

om nom nom haha

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by flinchy

it's not actually a TF035HL wheel... it's a TF035HL profile in TD04 size, that was clarified a long time ago by tony and the owners of the stage 2 beta's, in comparison with the RB wheels even.

Originally Posted by Tony of VTT on ***********, in response to a question regarding the size of the "Stage 2" exhaust turbine, in comparison to a RB TD04L wheel.

"The wheel is slightly smaller, we really liked the profile and design the TF035 had, that is why we chose to use it and have it modified to fit our needs. its a full back design which are more efficient at moving exhaust through the wheel which in these things is very important, we shall see."

Here are rader1's dyno results.

Peak torque looks to be about 4,250 rpm by my calculations.

A RB turbo car will usually see peak torque by 3,500 rpm.

Perhaps rader1's dyno graph is not a true representation of the spool characteristics of the VTT "Stage 2" turbos, but that is the only valid graph I have seen thus far.

Is there another one out there I have missed?

I have seen several logs showing slow spool too, but one of those from jpsimon was definitely in 3rd gear, so that is neither here nor there. Perhaps the others were too, so I am happy to ignore those for the time being.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Here is dyno graph from my own 135i, that illustrates the comparative torque curve of the vehicle when equipped with RB turbos and prior with the OEM TD03 snails.

As you can see the RBs take longer to spool initially, but the peak torque rpm of the RB turbo vehicle with a conservative tune, is VERY similar to the FBO OEM turbocharged car, when the stock turbos are being pushed quite hard.

[flinchy]

Mmm it's a bit lame, how little info there is

Most of them seem to be getting on it in the next few weeks - hopefully a good cobb protune fairly well optimised ...

Plus in the next 3 months or so apparently stage 2 vargas is getting 'options' so possibly some standard td04 option like the rb's?

Unless rb's come down in price again though... Vargas is pretty cheap

The one you posted is still 475whp - albeit on a dynojet

Ed: i can't read your graph.. What rpm is each km/h and wht is the left column 'n'... Can't be newtons as thats not torque at all lol

[adrian@vishnu]

That is tractive effort. It is the force applied to the rollers at the radius of the rollers. Therefore the shape of it is the same as the torque shape, but the units are not the same.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Mmm it's a bit lame, how little info there is

Most of them seem to be getting on it in the next few weeks - hopefully a good cobb protune fairly well optimised ...

Plus in the next 3 months or so apparently stage 2 vargas is getting 'options' so possibly some standard td04 option like the rb's?

Unless rb's come down in price again though... Vargas is pretty cheap

The one you posted is still 475whp - albeit on a dynojet

Ed: i can't read your graph.. What rpm is each km/h and wht is the left column 'n'... Can't be newtons as thats not torque at all lol

Hey flinchy,

yeah there is not a lot of solid info out there on the VTT "Stage 2's" which is a bit surprising, as these were initially released to customers as beta sets, for the purposes of testing and evaluation.

I have not read anything about the turbo "options" you refer to, but if Vargas swap out their TF035HL "fullback" wheel for an "actual" TD04L wheel, the cost of the Vargas turbochargers will go up quite a bit. They will have to machine the exhaust housings for readaptation of the larger TD04 centresection, which is a MUST if they go to TD04L wheel.

Right now the original OEM TD03 centresections are being used with the 035... exhaust wheel, at a considerable saving of machining time over the use of a true TD04 centresection.

As it stands right now Rob's turbochargers are only $300 more when compared to the VTT S2's with the upgraded thrust component option, assuming equivalent shipping charges, core charges and import duties/taxes (which they all should be).

Prior to VTT/Tony coming onto the scene, RBs cost quite a bit more to purchase. Competition has forced Rob to revise his prices downwards, which is good news indeed for the N54 enthusiast.

It is great to have options when upgrading the turbochargers on your vehicle and major props go to Tony for his advancement of the N54 platform and the achievements made in such a very short space of time. However for the sake of a $300 difference between Rob Beck Turbochargers and VTT "Stage 2's", I know where my money would be going.

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

That is tractive effort. It is the force applied to the rollers at the radius of the rollers. Therefore the shape of it is the same as the torque shape, but the units are not the same.

Yes,

thanks Adrian.

"DynaNewtons" is a relative measure of the tractive effort or force applied to the rollers on a "Dyno Dynamics" dyno.

The figure is dependant upon gear selection and final drive ratio and perhaps tyre size too, ummm Adrian?

[adrian@vishnu]

Yep like anything to do with torque or force on a dyno, the numbers will vary alot with anything that effects gearing... so gear/diff ratio, tyre size etc.

The useful thing with tractive effort/torque on a dyno is not really the numbers as much as the shape of the graph. A nice flat graph starting as low as possible and staying flat as high as possible is the best result for general driving enjoyment. Some people like a really low hump which indicates a "torquey" engine which is lazy to drive around town, but ultimately in any form of motorsports, a flat torque curve is ideal. My preference is for flat torque. I can always change gear if I want more acceleration.

[skidz]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

if Vargas swap out their TF035HL "fullback" wheel for an "actual" TD04L wheel, the cost of the Vargas turbochargers will go up quite a bit. They will have to machine the exhaust housings for readaptation of the larger TD04 centresection, which is a MUST if they go to TD04L wheel.

Right now the original OEM TD03 centresections are being used with the 035... exhaust wheel, at a considerable saving of machining time over the use of a true TD04 centresection.

Why is it assumed TD04 wheel is better than the Vargas hybrid/custom wheel? Dont Vargas have lots of turbo experience? if they thought there was a better option based on years of experience then I say give (the) piece a chance

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by skidz

Why is it assumed TD04 wheel is better than the Vargas hybrid/custom wheel? Dont Vargas have lots of turbo experience? if they thought there was a better option based on years of experience then I say give (the) piece a chance

I know a guy who sells turbos locally and spends all his time testing turbos and designing custom comp wheels and turbines and housings. He works with international companies and helps them to design mainly Mitsu turbo parts for the aftermarket. He knows A LOT about turbos... but even he takes many iterations and prototypes to get it right.

I would not buy a turbo because someone with experience thinks it will work well. But if they do make it and test and find it works well, I would happily part with my cash. I am sure Vargas will do the testing and find out if it works well. Until then I would stick with proven options.

[Tab135]

PM Sent Justin.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey flinchy,

yeah there is not a lot of solid info out there on the VTT "Stage 2's" which is a bit surprising, as these were initially released to customers as beta sets, for the purposes of testing and evaluation.

I have not read anything about the turbo "options" you refer to, but if Vargas swap out their TF035HL "fullback" wheel for an "actual" TD04L wheel, the cost of the Vargas turbochargers will go up quite a bit. They will have to machine the exhaust housings for readaptation of the larger TD04 centresection, which is a MUST if they go to TD04L wheel.

Right now the original OEM TD03 centresections are being used with the 035... exhaust wheel, at a considerable saving of machining time over the use of a true TD04 centresection.

As it stands right now Rob's turbochargers are only $300 more when compared to the VTT S2's with the upgraded thrust component option, assuming equivalent shipping charges, core charges and import duties/taxes (which they all should be).

Prior to VTT/Tony coming onto the scene, RBs cost quite a bit more to purchase. Competition has forced Rob to revise his prices downwards, which is good news indeed for the N54 enthusiast.

It is great to have options when upgrading the turbochargers on your vehicle and major props go to Tony for his advancement of the N54 platform and the achievements made in such a very short space of time. However for the sake of a $300 difference between Rob Beck Turbochargers and VTT "Stage 2's", I know where my money would be going.

hmmm i wouldn't think it would cost too much more - the TF035 option they have now already requires custom work to some degree?

yeah there's no solid info on the 'options' other than vargas stating the stage 2's aren't finished regardless of what the beta's come back with

there are 100% more results in the next couple of weeks though.

hmm $300 isn't so bad

i'm still reserving my judgment for final figures as to which is the better though. if RB's make more power, spool better, and are potentally more reliable, yeah, they'll get my money obviously. but it's enough time away that there should be final info on how the vargas options perform.

for example, dzenno pushed out 550whp on his with RB's... with headwork and a thicker gasket.. and he's pushed out something like 475 lazily on vargas stage 1 replacements... itd be cool to see him put on some stage 2's... though he'll probably skip straight to 3's....

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

I know a guy who sells turbos locally and spends all his time testing turbos and designing custom comp wheels and turbines and housings. He works with international companies and helps them to design mainly Mitsu turbo parts for the aftermarket. He knows A LOT about turbos... but even he takes many iterations and prototypes to get it right.

I would not buy a turbo because someone with experience thinks it will work well. But if they do make it and test and find it works well, I would happily part with my cash. I am sure Vargas will do the testing and find out if it works well. Until then I would stick with proven options.

can agree with this

the beta testers for stage 2's got their's for a CRAZY price.. something like $1500 - so it's a no brainer for them haha

[skidz]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

I know a guy who sells turbos locally and spends all his time testing turbos and designing custom comp wheels and turbines and housings. He works with international companies and helps them to design mainly Mitsu turbo parts for the aftermarket. He knows A LOT about turbos... but even he takes many iterations and prototypes to get it right.

I would not buy a turbo because someone with experience thinks it will work well. But if they do make it and test and find it works well, I would happily part with my cash. I am sure Vargas will do the testing and find out if it works well. Until then I would stick with proven options.

best worded post i think i have seen

[JB4-335]

It's a no-brainer. RB Turbo's get my vote. Thoroughly tested and proven.

[Tab135]

anyone keen to maybe sort a groupbuy ?

[JB4-335]

Originally Posted by KD135

anyone keen to maybe sort a groupbuy ?

I'd be keen but my car is a DCT and the clutch already slips occasionally.